Philosophy Discussion Forums

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 9:47 am That was apparently a similar issue. As the Wikipedia article about Lorber states, "Explanations have been proposed for the first student's situation, with reviewers noting that Lorber's scans evidenced that the subject's brain mass was not absent, but compacted into the small space available, possibly compressed to a greater density than regular brain tissue."

Well, has it ever been confirmed? If not, then the compression theory is questionable.

Professor Lorber clearly speaks of brain weight which would be a plausible measure for accurately determining the amount of brain tissue. In the case of the student with an IQ of 126 he specifically mentions that the student is estimated to have an amount of brain tissue weighing 50-150 grams (~5%).

"I can't say whether the mathematics student with an IQ of 126 had a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it is clear it is nowhere near the normal 1.5kg and much of the brain he does have is in the more primitive deep structures that are relatively spared in hydrochephalus".

arjand wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 10:03 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 9:47 am That was apparently a similar issue. As the Wikipedia article about Lorber states, "Explanations have been proposed for the first student's situation, with reviewers noting that Lorber's scans evidenced that the subject's brain mass was not absent, but compacted into the small space available, possibly compressed to a greater density than regular brain tissue."

Well, has it ever been confirmed? If not, then the compression theory is questionable.

Professor Lorber clearly speaks of brain weight which would be a plausible measure for accurately determining the amount of brain tissue. In the case of the student with an IQ of 126 he specifically mentions that the student is estimated to have an amount of brain tissue weighing 50-150 grams (~5%).

"I can't say whether the mathematics student with an IQ of 126 had a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it is clear it is nowhere near the normal 1.5kg and much of the brain he does have is in the more primitive deep structures that are relatively spared in hydrochephalus".

Lorber never published any sort of peer-reviewed paper first off. He didn't know the actual brain weight. How would he? The subject was alive. He was guesstimating based on the scans. Based on the scans, there's no reason to believe that it's not simply a situation of the brain tissue being compressed due to fluid.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 10:20 am Lorber never published any sort of peer-reviewed paper first off. He didn't know the actual brain weight. How would he? The subject was alive. He was guesstimating based on the scans. Based on the scans, there's no reason to believe that it's not simply a situation of the brain tissue being compressed due to fluid.

A fact to consider is that he was a leading expert on the condition. He was studying 600 cases at that time in 1980, of which 10% had barely 5% brain tissue of which 50% had an IQ higher than 100. It is to be assumed that his estimate is based on research that justifies it.

Brain weight can be verified in an autopsy.

Is there evidence for the idea that the brain can be compressed? If it is merely an idea then it is questionable if it was never confirmed.

arjand wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 12:22 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 10:20 am Lorber never published any sort of peer-reviewed paper first off. He didn't know the actual brain weight. How would he? The subject was alive. He was guesstimating based on the scans. Based on the scans, there's no reason to believe that it's not simply a situation of the brain tissue being compressed due to fluid.

A fact to consider is that he was a leading expert on the condition. He was studying 600 cases at that time in 1980, of which 10% had barely 5% brain tissue of which 50% had an IQ higher than 100. It is to be assumed that his estimate is based on research that justifies it.

Brain weight can be verified in an autopsy.

Is there evidence for the idea that the brain can be compressed? If it is merely an idea then it is questionable if it was never confirmed.

So let's look at some of his peer-reviewed papers, including his research about brain weights obtained via autopsies.

Observation compared to imagination. The representation of the hand movement in the brain required many resources. In 1996 there was an study of Grafton, Arbib, Rizzolatti in the Experimental Brain Research 112 p. 103-111.

“An interesting phenomenon of frontal lobe damage is the insignificant effect it can have on traditional IQ testing. Researchers believe that this have to do with IQ tests typically assessing convergent rather than divergent thinking”
From Centre for Neuro Skills.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 3:03 pmSo let's look at some of his peer-reviewed papers, including his research about brain weights obtained via autopsies.

I found 213 published studies and none of them retracted.

arjand wrote: ↑June 15th, 2020, 7:42 am

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 13th, 2020, 3:03 pmSo let's look at some of his peer-reviewed papers, including his research about brain weights obtained via autopsies.

I found 213 published studies and none of them retracted.

Are you under the impression that spinal bifida implies missing a big percentage of one's brain, and where we're making claims about IQ and day-to-day mental functioning?

What can be deduced from the publications is that he performed professional research. He was a leading specialist on the condition in 1980.

From an outsider's perspective I merely argue that professor Lorber's estimate of 'brain weight' would be a plausible measure to determine the actual brain tissue. Since he studied over 600 cases at that time, it is almost certain that he has verified his brain weight estimate as soon as an opportunity presented itself (i.e. at an autopsy).

If there were occurrences of brain compression, it may be likely that he would have named that as a suggestion.

At question is: is there evidence by which it can be stated that a brain can be compressed to 10% size or is it merely an idea?

arjand wrote: ↑June 15th, 2020, 9:22 am What can be deduced from the publications is that he performed professional research. He was a leading specialist on the condition in 1980.

From an outsider's perspective I merely argue that professor Lorber's estimate of 'brain weight' would be a plausible measure to determine the actual brain tissue. Since he studied over 600 cases at that time, it is almost certain that he has verified his brain weight estimate as soon as an opportunity presented itself (i.e. at an autopsy).

If there were occurrences of brain compression, it may be likely that he would have named that as a suggestion.

At question is: is there evidence by which it can be stated that a brain can be compressed to 10% size or is it merely an idea?

I don't think this mentions 10% in the article, but this is an example of a peer-reviewed paper that discusses brain compression with respect to cerebral edemas and other conditions:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25604908/

Good. I feel I have more than 5% of my brain alive. It is hard to say. But, is it fit? This which is the lifeforce which was a forest fire might be down to candlelight burning in the last few old tired neurons. So, it is a good measure to take my IQ test at different ages. Anyway, I know for sure that I am not as good in ping-pong as when I was in school. I am down to 10% of my skill set. On the other hand, I can make a really, really good steak .Then, if my toes ever get big, smelly and discolored, I wonder if the image of toes in my brain will suffered at all from the edema of decay pushing the ventricles to minuscule size and herniating the mush in many different places. At autopsy, my 5% will weight much more than my 50% and maybe more than my 100%... Never say never. It could also happen by getting up too fast from bed; falling and hitting the head that could cause different degrees of intracranial bleeding. This way I be dying out of bed and not in bed. I will never be a Conquistador. I hear that certain head hunter tribes can compress the brain to the size of an orange.

Greta wrote: ↑June 11th, 2020, 6:55 pm PHILOSOPHIC FAILURE OF THE MONTH ...

Goes to Sculptor, whose analogy was shallow and not even close to being equivalent to my statements, demonstrating a lack of understanding of what was said.

You might want to learn a bit of basic logic before you make a fool of yourself trying to defend what was a howler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ2FeXwMyFI

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 16th, 2020, 6:45 am

Greta wrote: ↑June 11th, 2020, 6:55 pm PHILOSOPHIC FAILURE OF THE MONTH ...

Goes to Sculptor, whose analogy was shallow and not even close to being equivalent to my statements, demonstrating a lack of understanding of what was said.

You might want to learn a bit of basic logic before you make a fool of yourself trying to defend what was a howler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ2FeXwMyFI

You didn't understand what I said.

Greta wrote: ↑June 16th, 2020, 7:45 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 16th, 2020, 6:45 am

You might want to learn a bit of basic logic before you make a fool of yourself trying to defend what was a howler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ2FeXwMyFI

You didn't understand what I said.

Then you should be clearer.

Perhaps one should somehow ask for if there is a consciousness without an identity and a self-conscience , which is related on a collective consciousness of an individual without having a personal consciousness.