Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Joshua10]

God wouldn't have to answer to humankind because he agrees with humankind's judgments. Everyone being in perfect agreement.

[Belindi]

What you have to remember is that God hasn't done anything wrong at all because humankind has accepted full responsibility for all the atrocities and bad things that have happened throughout history and will happen in the future having rejected a God that may or may not exist. Humankind accepts this because it knows that the alternative is to accept that a God does exist in order to be able to blame and reject him, which would mean the atheist becomes a theist.

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

[Joshua10]

The cause isn't down to God according to atheists.

[Pattern-chaser]

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

[Pattern-chaser]

If God exists, it seems to me that he is absolved from the atrocities committed by people, because we have autonomy. I would say free will, but I don’t want to start a splinter debate. But for the things that people don’t have control over, such as natural disasters etc., we can attribute blame (or responsibility) to him. I don’t believe that because bad things happen in life that means God would be evil because good things happen as well.

If we are to attribute blame to God for what is considered evil, we must also (in reasonableness) attribute to him what is good. An omnipotent being has the power to stop evil from happening, but if such a being were good or benign – it is puzzling as to why they do not do so. As a human being with limited knowledge, it is impossible to draw absolute conclusions as to why a purported omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being does the things that they do. Therefore, ultimately, I think it would be illogical to blame God or claim that he has done things wrong in an absolute and not theoretical sense.

Nice post. But I want to comment on one thing you say, that has been said many times, by many people, over the years I have been tracking such conversations.

Why do we think that a "good" God would prevent "evil" from happening? Just what understanding lies behind this question?

Do we really believe that an omni-everything mega-being created the universe, and rules it in accordance with maximum benefit — goodness — for one insignificant simian species on one backwater planet? Really? Of all the life that exists across the entire spacetime universe, God runs it all for the benefit of homo sapiens? Again, really?

What is a "good God"? Is it a God who is 'good' to themselves? Is it a God who is 'good' to their own creations (i.e. the whole spacetime universe)? Is it a God who is 'good' to one particular species, selected from all the life in the all-encompassing spacetime universe? Again, really?

Is it a God who is willing to be 'evil' to all other life in the universe, so that monkey-men can enjoy 'goodness'?

[Belindi]

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

I was wondering if some people who believe in the goodness of God know why God, who is so powerful, allows babies to be born with cleft palates.

[Pattern-chaser]

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

I was wondering if some people who believe in the goodness of God know why God, who is so powerful, allows babies to be born with cleft palates.

I do not believe in the goodness of God, because I find nothing in those words but confusion and misdirection.

However, let us say that God has decreed — and implemented — that humans are assembled according to general instructions laid down in DNA. The process is not perfect; sometimes, the assembly contains faults, such as cleft palates, or worse. I suppose one might ask why an omnipotent God should do it this (error-prone) way. In which case, I direct the questioner to God, for I do not know why She does what She does, and neither does any other human. So we will speculate, and splutter, and bluster, to cover up our complete lack of knowledge and understanding. It's what we do, I suppose...

[Sy Borg]

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

I was wondering if some people who believe in the goodness of God know why God, who is so powerful, allows babies to be born with cleft palates.

It's character building, Belinda. Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

As you know, God works in mysterious ways. It is all within his grand plan, which is ultimately for the best, even if it doesn't seem that way to us at times.

// end apologetics

[LuckyR]

The cause isn't down to God according to atheists.

I didn't know you were an atheist.

[Belindi]

What causes babies to be born with cleft palates?

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

I was wondering if some people who believe in the goodness of God know why God, who is so powerful, allows babies to be born with cleft palates.

It's character building, Belinda. Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

As you know, God works in mysterious ways. It is all within his grand plan, which is ultimately for the best, even if it doesn't seem that way to us at times.

// end apologetics

But God is too good to be so cruel, and He is too good to prevent our understanding His intentions. No good father on Earth would behave like so, and God is our Heavenly Father.

Seriously, though, every society needs a code of ethics; and the God idea makes our code of ethics into a person, a deity. The question then, for me, is how to visualise God so that we can make sense of a God that permits this atrocity.

The God who permits atrocities is perfectly good but is not perfectly powerful.
We ourselves are what stops atrocities.

[Pattern-chaser]

The question then, for me, is how to visualise God so that we can make sense of a God that permits this atrocity.

But it's not an atrocity. It's just a mistake; an unfortunate happenstance. Surely an "atrocity" would be deliberate (along with many other things)?

[Belindi]

The question then, for me, is how to visualise God so that we can make sense of a God that permits this atrocity.

But it's not an atrocity. It's just a mistake; an unfortunate happenstance. Surely an "atrocity" would be deliberate (along with many other things)?

Some people think God deliberates, just like a person deliberates. If it's true that God deliberates then it's an atrocity.

[Sy Borg]

Mischance, not Gaia. Or Jesus either.

I was wondering if some people who believe in the goodness of God know why God, who is so powerful, allows babies to be born with cleft palates.

It's character building, Belinda. Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

As you know, God works in mysterious ways. It is all within his grand plan, which is ultimately for the best, even if it doesn't seem that way to us at times.

// end apologetics

But God is too good to be so cruel, and He is too good to prevent our understanding His intentions. No good father on Earth would behave like so, and God is our Heavenly Father.

Seriously, though, every society needs a code of ethics; and the God idea makes our code of ethics into a person, a deity. The question then, for me, is how to visualise God so that we can make sense of a God that permits this atrocity.

The God who permits atrocities is perfectly good but is not perfectly powerful.
We ourselves are what stops atrocities.

If God exists as a planetary, solar, galactic or universal entity (a big if), then its relationship to us might be more akin to our relationship with our cells than with our children.

Our cells are dying all the time. All those tiny lives that reach a point where they can no longer go on and cross the threshold to death. In fact, about one million of our cells die every second. Yet we don't mourn them. Rather, even if we are aware of the carnage within us, we are grateful because, if they did not die, then the organs they comprise would fail and the total organism would die.

If they were sentient, would our cells consider us to be good? Or might they see the brain as a kleptocratic dictator who hogs a disproportionate share of resources and ruthlessly dispatches any who dare to disobey. Rather like the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. Or Putin today.

[Joshua10]

The cause isn't down to God according to atheists.

I didn't know you were an atheist.

I know that if there is a God, Belief or Unbelief in that God is of no use to me?

Even the devil, if he exists. could believe in God.

Its not about belief or unbelief LuckR. If you think it is then you are way off mark philosophically.

It always only ever been about acceptance or rejection.

[Pattern-chaser]

The question then, for me, is how to visualise God so that we can make sense of a God that permits this atrocity.

But it's not an atrocity. It's just a mistake; an unfortunate happenstance. Surely an "atrocity" would be deliberate (along with many other things)?

Some people think God deliberates, just like a person deliberates. If it's true that God deliberates then it's an atrocity.

OK. Then, for that reason, I suggest that it's not true.