Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

The only way out of this is to appreciate that Hamas has zero interest in a two-state solution and stop pretending hat the Arab world will accept anything abut total removal of Israel. They are not gentle about these things. Millions of Israelis were purged from All surrounding Arab lands last century (which no one here cared about, of course).

You say that "The only way out of this is to appreciate that Hamas has zero interest in a two-state solution..." How exactly would that be a "way out"? You continue to support Israel's actions but fail to express how you see this ending. How far are you willing to support the murder of Palestinians?
"Millions of Israelis were purged from All surrounding Arab lands..." Yes, but if your point is that that's justification for genocide, I don't agree.

I am probably more bothered by Palestinian deaths than you are of Sudanese deaths, and you certainly did not rise up about the genocides perpetrated by Muslims in Syria and Yemen. Your complete lack of interest in Sudan's problems compared with your total concern for Palestine is simply racist.

Why do you only care about the deaths of one group of people in one conflict?

You make the false claim that it's because your government provides aid to Israel - ignoring their involvement in many other conflicts, and certainly there's been no criticism of despotic regimes supported in the past.

No, it looks like you and many others only care about this issue because the mainstream media has programmed you with daily bombardment of articles favouring Palestine over months.

In time, Israel will in time be subsumed into the old Ottoman power bloc. just as Ukraine will be absorbed by Russia and Taiwan by China. The strong always win and Israel is a tiny, sliver of non-Islam in an intensely Islamic area, only kept in existence by the US. When the money dries up, as it will eventually, Israel will be overrun and disappear.

Again is that justification for their current goal of exterminating all Palestinians in Gaza? I think their actions are making the situation worse. What possibly could be Israel's long term plan?

It looks to me like Israel has wanted the land of the West Bank and Gaza and are willing to sacrifice hostages and commit genocide to get that land.
The only justification I've heard from those that support Israel's efforts are that it would make Israel safer, which makes no sense; that their god gave them that land, therefore their genocide is justifiable; that the Arab peoples are subhuman (how ironic); and/of that it's retribution for the Oct 7 attack. Do you agree with any of these or do you have another justification?

[/quote]

2.2 billion Muslims. There are 16 million Jews. That's 137 x more. Who is in danger?

We know what the actual genocide will be - Jews are currently struggling for survival against a neighbour who has sought only their destruction from the start. Now they are losing international support due to Arab propaganda eagerly consumed by virtue-signalling westerners. The fuse runs short.

By the end of this century, Israel will certainly not exist and almost all identifiable people of Jewish descent will be killed. Jews cannot forever keep resisting the extreme pressure of hostile neighbours who seek only their death, not when US's resolve to help them is weakening. There is no safe place for Jews now. Arabs and their sympathisers will hunt them down in all parts of the Earth, finishing the job that Hitler started.

[Mo_reese]

Last night Israel bombed the refugee camp in Rafah. US President had warned Bebe not to attack Rafah or else...... But we know that Biden bows down to Bebe as does all most all the US Congress.

[Sy Borg]

How about violent attacks on schools?

The number of violent attacks on schools and education in [...] has increased fourfold since the start of the conflict in April last year with 88 reports of violent incidents and most schools now closed, according to Save the Children analysis released today.

These incidents include airstrikes on schools resulting in the killing and injury of students and teachers, torturing of teachers, killing and abduction of teachers and sexual violence against students inside education facilities. Other incidents included occupation of schools by armed groups, use of schools as weapons storage facilities, and battles fought on education premises.

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/su ... r-conflict

Never mind, that happened in Sudan, so it doesn't matter.

[Mo_reese]

Are Israel – US above international law?

The International Criminal Court ordered Israel to stop the invasion of Rajah. Netanyahu's response, essentially a F-U to the ICC, was to step up bombing in Rajah, with US supplied 200 lb bombs, on a UN refugee tent encampment. Apparently not enough he also ordered an invasion of the West Bank where there is no Hamas influence, no Hamas hiding in tents, no human shields that need to be murdered. What next, nuclear weapons? There are some in the US Congress pushing for such and what's to stop him? Biden already lost his hollow “red-line” warning threat.
It looks to me like Netanyahu is taking Israel on a suicide mission with the US fully involved.
This can not end well either for Israel or the US unless they cut Netanyahu loose.

[Sy Borg]

Is Hamas above international law? Is the China, Russia, the US, Yemen, Syria or Sudan?

A quarter of the UN is a bloc of Muslim states, plus you have China, Russia and their vassals all following the anti-Semitic wave - like you.

You follow the violence of this war (which Hamas could have stopped in the first two months at any time - if they chose) but you have zero interest in the multiple slaughters in Africa.

Palestinians are the most important people in the world. By contrast, the Sudanese do not matter at all - not even a bit. They are treated as pointless bums by those who are so in love with Palestine and their violent misogynistic, homophobic ways.

The lack of balance has reached utter absurdity. This thread is pointless and boring. There's so much in life that is fascinating, but we are bogged down with this mindless garbage. An endless chain of dupes, whining about Palestine as if it was unusual on the world stage and most won't admit that they seek the genocide of Jews.

Never mind, Israel will be gone by the end of the century, along with Ukraine and Taiwan.

[Pattern-chaser]

Is Hamas above international law? Is the China, Russia, the US, Yemen, Syria or Sudan?

Assume that countries A, B, C and D are all engaged in activities that are wrong.
If the question is "is country A above international law?", then the conduct of countries B, C and D is of no immediate interest.
None.

In this case, the question that Mo asked is simple and clear:

Are Israel – US above international law?

The conduct of Hamas, China, Russia, Yemen, Syria or Sudan is of no immediate relevance to the question being asked. None at all. These other mentions are just bluster, to distract us from the fact that you are refusing even to consider the question, never mind answer it.

Please answer the question, without complaining that there are other questions that also need answering. Of course there are; there always will be. But that's no excuse for not answering the particular question you've been asked.

[Sy Borg]

The question is gratuitous.

There is no functioning international law. The US hegemony that you despise is just about gone. The UN is biased and non credible. Last year, Saudi Arabia was chosen to chair of the UN commission for promoting gender equality and empower women around the world. The UN is a bad joke. It ignores blatant breaches and selectively focuses on Israel, which you think is fine because you have apparently been brainwashed by the mainstream media.

Never mind the hundreds of thousands who died in Syria and Yemen while the media turned the other way. Never mind the slaughter in Sudan, because both the UN and the media are too busy attacking Israel. It's all very selective, very targetted.

[value]

I tend to agree with the position of Pattern-chaser in this topic, although I am neutral and simply argue on behalf of theory for peace (e.g. "no place for hate and evil in the context of reason").

One problem at a time. The problems in other parts of the world, although perhaps even more important from various perspectives, should not imply that one should look away from the problems addressed in the topic.

There are specialists who argue that peace is possible. The Economist published a special about it in December 2023:

How peace is possible
economist-peace-800.jpg (1.09 MiB) Viewed 1338 times

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/ ... s-possible
https://www.economist.com/weeklyedition/2023-12-09 (purchase paper version)

Albert Einstein: "intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent problems"

Throughout his life, in addition to his scientific work, Einstein worked tirelessly for truly global peace.

In 1940, Einstein wrote a manuscript titled Theory of World Peace that preceded the founding of the United Nations.

We believe in a world beyond war, where sustainable peace is truly possible.
https://oneearthfuture.org/

[Sy Borg]

I know this won't be appreciated because it does not involve the most hated and victimised people in history - Jews - but if we really are so concerned about human rights and now just about what Jews are doing wrong, then the Sudan war should be front and centre. In the last 24 hours:

June 5, 2024 (EL FASHER)- Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) announced on Wednesday that the conflict in El Fasher, the capital of North Darfur State, has resulted in 1,280 casualties, including both deaths and injuries.

They further expressed grave concerns over the potential closure of the only functioning hospital, which has been bombed three times in one week.

The actual number of casualties is expected to be higher than reported, as civilians face extreme difficulty accessing the southern hospital, the only one operational in El Fasher. Additionally, some residents are burying the dead without autopsies.

MSF stated in a press release received by Sudan Tribune, ” Since the fighting began on May 10 we have received 1,280 casualties at the MSF-supported South Hospital – 203 have died from their injuries”.

They highlighted that the intense fighting in El Fasher, with ongoing bombings of homes, markets, and hospitals, means there is no safe place for civilians. Mass casualties are occurring almost daily.

Tens of thousands have fled El Fasher, which houses 2.8 million civilians, including 800,000 displaced persons. Some of those fleeing have been subjected to ethnic cleansing by the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have imposed a tight siege on the historic capital of the Darfur region.

The organization stressed that the South Hospital has been bombed three times in one week, causing injuries and deaths, and putting healthcare providers’ lives at constant risk.

They reported that the South Hospital is the only facility capable of responding to mass casualty events, and there is a very real risk it could become non-operational due to further damage or direct bombing.

The RSF, which is fighting the army and allied armed movements in El Fasher for control of the city, is accused of deliberately bombing the southern hospital, civilian homes, shelters, and displacement camps.

[Lagayascienza]

Throughout human history various groups have been persecuted, some to extinction. In the Old World, the ancient Romans and Greeks are no more. In the New World, the North American Indian were virtually wiped out. The South American civilisations - the Incas, Aztecs and Maya - were wiped out. The Australian Indigenous people, especially the Tasmanian tribes, were deliberately and systematically exterminated. Then there are the millions of Africans who were captured and sold into slavery. The list of oppressed and disappeared peoples is long. So, in in terms of persecution, there is nothing special about the Jews. Humanity has always persecuted parts of itself in the struggle for resources and supremacy. That doesn't make it right. There is no right. It's just what humans do. Other predatory and territorial species do similarly. Life is a tough gig.

[Sy Borg]

Throughout human history various groups have been persecuted, some to extinction. In the Old World, the ancient Romans and Greeks are no more. In the New World, the North American Indian were virtually wiped out. The South American civilisations - the Incas, Aztecs and Maya - were wiped out.

Most of these so-called exterminations were the result of bacteria brought from high population areas (where mutations rapidly evolve) to low population areas. Some of these cultures did much to wipe themselves out as they failed to sustainably tend the land.

The Australian Indigenous people, especially the Tasmanian tribes, were deliberately and systematically exterminated. Then there are the millions of Africans who were captured and sold into slavery.

Regarding Africans sold into slavery, probably 99% of that slavery in history was perpetrated by Africans and Arabs. Arabs were, and always have been, BY FAR the worst slavers. In fact, even after the "evil whites" stopped the practice, slavery continued in Arab nations for some time. In fact, many would class the situation of foreign workers in places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Kuwait and Jordan have considerable slave populations today.

The list of oppressed and disappeared peoples is long. So, in in terms of persecution, there is nothing special about the Jews. Humanity has always persecuted parts of itself in the struggle for resources and supremacy. That doesn't make it right. There is no right. It's just what humans do. Other predatory and territorial species do similarly. Life is a tough gig.

Putting aside rogue Arab states rules by Iranian proxies and Sudan's Islamic destruction (which is comfortably the most destructive current situation), let's consider other recent humanitarian disasters, either caused by humans or non-human nature (or the interaction of these).

Russia/ Ukraine
China / Uyghurs
Taliban / Afghanistan
Syria
Yemen
Ethiopia
Congo
Myanmar
Venezuela
Mauritania
CAE
Iraq
Somalia
Nigeria
Mali
Burkina Faso

These are just the disasters. There is an incredible amount of suffering happening as a result of overpopulation. Even in prosperous countries, homelessness, social disruption and suicide are rapidly increasing. In fact, the hopelessness faced by young westerns is exactly why they have latched onto Palestine as a cause celebre, despite the obvious hypocrisy and double-standards needed to focus only on this one problem spot and blithely ignore all the others while claiming to only care about preventing human suffering.

The young feel that the social contract has been broken by the older generation, and this is a way of lashing out, aided by an impressive international propaganda arm (including Chinese and Russian agitation behind the scenes) that the Sudanese can only dream of having.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, the list of countries in which mans' inhumanity to man is occurring is, and always has been, long. The suffering is appalling. And the way humanity treats other animals is appalling. And the way other predatory and territorial animals treat other animals, and the way they treat each, other is appalling. Why is life like this? You and I both know the answer to that question.

We can't do much about the way other animals treat each other. That's the ouroboros. We could conceivably modify the way we treat each other and the way we treat other animals. So why don't we? That is the question.

[Sy Borg]

We can't do much about the way other animals treat each other. That's the ouroboros. We could conceivably modify the way we treat each other and the way we treat other animals. So why don't we? That is the question.

Actually, we have modified how we treat humans as compared with other animals. There are many, highly functional civil societies. How long they remain civil is another matter, because all systems break down over time. I think humans have done unbelievably well in this area, given where we have come from, and in mere thousands of years. Almost everything big happens in millions of years, or even billions, and humans have gone from cave dwellers and tribal societies in the tiniest sliver of evolutionary time.

How do we do this? By complaining and nitpicking and acting like the world is going to fall in at the slightest provocation. So we endlessly refine and tweak and fiddle with our systems to silence the constant grumbling. Sometimes leaders get jack of negotiation and simply crush the complainers, eg. NK, Turkmenistan, Eritrea.

So this and other debates, despite the remarkable double standards and associated cognitive dissonance on display - which echoes that in wider society at present - its all a tiny part of the argy bargy that has taken us from tribalism to modernity. It's largely a flight from nature (including our own human nature) because, as we have discussed, reality is damn dangerous and scary. Predators. Parasites. Tribal conflicts. Disease. Fires. Floods. Storms. Droughts.

Humans are trying to insulate ourselves from all that without turning cities into dead, antiseptic wastelands that do nothing for mental health. Its a balancing act, and the balance is never perfect.

[Mo_reese]

Misinformation
Israel has been exposed using misinformation to incite public opinion against the Palestinians in Gaza and the Israel friendly US media was glad to help.
Ms. Elkayam-Levy, the chair of Israel's investigative committee into rape on 10/7 by Hamas has been exposed as a fraud. She has been scamming millions from donors and sowing misinformation accusing Hamas of systematic sexual assaults on Oct 7.
Early on Israeli friendly media, CNN and NYT were eager to use information to paint Hamas as monsters. But after investigating an Israel newspaper exposed Ms. Elkayam-Levy as a fraud. The Israeli government has distanced themselves from Ms. Elkayam-Levy stating their objections to the reports of misinformation. Even the New York Times, Israel's biggest supporter had to publish a report that countered their earlier story.

Misinformation 101, publish a outrageous report on page one and then correct it on page 9. President Biden told the world he SAW evidence of a dozen Israeli babies that had been beheaded. His staff had to provide the “explanation” the next day essentially saying it was all a lie, but the damage was done. President Biden recently said he SAW a video where a mother and young daughter were tied up, doused with a flammable liquid, and set on fire by Hamas. Again more misinformation (aka lies).

More misinformation - Original reports claimed that Hamas killed 1400 Israelis on Oct 7. Almost immediately that number was reduced by Israel. Turns out the numbers included some dead Hamas fighters. Also it has come out that some of the dead were killed, either accidentally or intentionally by IDF. The number 1400 is still used by those that side with Israel.
….............................
The fact that there are other atrocities in the world does not detract from what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank. This is just one of a number of distractions.
No reasonable justification has been presented to account for the actions of Israel.
Weaponizing the term “anti-Semitic” is a terrible disservice to the Jewish people. Zionism isn't Judaism and Judaism isn't Zionism. Being against the actions of Israel's government isn't anti-Semitic.

[Sy Borg]

Palestine's lies make Israel's seem like a child's white lies. Of course, you believe everything Palestine says implicitly, as though truth wasn't the first casualty in war.

Consider casualty numbers. The vast majority will be either Hamas fighters of civilians deliberately placed in harm's way by Hamas. Virtually of victims ill fit into either of these categories.

Never a word of criticism for Hamas from Mo et al. Not a peep of complaint. Nor will there ever any criticism because - to Mo - Hamas is The Oppressed and thus can do no wrong. Palestinians are actually considered by their western "friends" as too primitive to be expected to behave in a civilised manner, hence the excusing of their constant human rights abuses (often to their own). If they believed Palestinians to be fully human they would hold them to the same standards as the west or Israel.

As for Sudan's disaster, the complete and total disinterest of supposed human rights champions in the plight of the Sudanese, while being laser focused on Hamas's casualties, makes it clear that they use human rights as an excuse to justify their obvious anti-Semitism.