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Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 4:11 pm
by Steve3007
I, with very little knowledge simply desire an open debate about Gaedes outrageous but feasible alternative but no one appears willing to enter into combat.
Prismatic, for one, listed several specific well defined concrete problems he saw with Gaede's string hypothesis earlier. I created a whole topic devoted to debating Gaede's ideas on this forum a while ago. So I don't really see how you can be justified in saying this.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 4:38 pm
by A Poster He or I
Mmfiore said,
If local reality exists it can be explained by “either hidden variables or otherwise "connecting" the space-like separated quanta in a manner that is not demonstrable”. So why are these interpretations, (not assumptions) not demonstrable?
Because there is no empirical evidence for hidden variables or faster-than-light connectivity. The empirical evidence from the proofs of Bell's Inequality indicates only the reality of the phenomenon known as nonlocality. Please be clear, I am not claiming that nonlocality is a fundamental phenomenon. I am quite happy to entertain the notion that it is merely the spatio-temporal manifestation of an underlying causal phenomenon. I am just respectful enough toward science as an epistemological method that I don't consider such notions science. Not until they are empirically demonstrable. Nobody's done it yet. The Copenhagen Interpretation simply takes a hard line on this attitude, and that is healthy for practical science, while at the same time CI certainly has not deterred imaginative hypothesizing by theorists looking for causal foundations for QM.
Obviously something is happening that QM cannot explain.
QM models the behavior of quantum phenomena. It does not speculate about causation for such behavior. That is not its purview, given the nature of its formalism.
The results of the experiment clearly demonstrate that our definition for locality is in fact incorrect.
I don't see that clearly demonstrated at all. One can quite as readily state that what is clearly demonstrated is that the definition of locality is intact but that locality just doesn't apply. The choice seems to ride on whether to believe only in local realism or to believe in the possibility of nonlocality. Maintaining local realism requires resorting to explanations for the results that have no basis in currently established science. Nonlocality maintains consistency with science but requires a belief that space-time is capable of behavior beyond human experience to verify. As someone respectful of science and having no difficulties considering the current limits of human experience, I choose a nonlocal explanation.
Obviously in certain special situations a connectedness exists between spatially separated objects.
No, obviously in certain special situations a correlation exists between spatially separated objects.
Through this connectedness there must exist a superluminal connection where entangled particles are concerned.
Your use of the word "must" has no basis. There are several equally plausible speculations for the correlation of entangled particles that do not rely on superluminal connectivity.
Bell’s Theorem says that if there are hidden local variables driving the statistical outcome then the results of such an experiment support the Copenhagen interpretation, (not explanation).

No, Bell's Theorem doesn't stipulate (or speculate on) the reason for QM's increased odds for correlation over the odds of sheer chance as being due to hidden variables. Moreover, nothing about Bell's Theorem implies any aspect of the Copenhagen Interpretation. CI, in this context, is nothing but a decision to take EPR results at face value and work from there.
TheCopenhagen interpretation rules say the wave function "collapses" at the time of measurement, so there must be action at a distance (entanglement) or the object must know more than it's supposed to (hidden variables). This interpretation says there must be action at a distance and somehow that happens faster than light.
CI believes the wave function is a mathematical abstraction. The light-speed limit has no bearing on abstract mathematical behavior. In recent decades, most CI proponents implicitly agree with Feynman's interpretation that wave function collapse is merely the cataloguing of a relationship between quanta and a measuring device.
It is generally believed that any theory which violates causality would also be internally inconsistent, and thus deeply unsatisfactory.
I've never read of anyone finding QM "internally inconsistent" for not addressing causation. That's like saying Newton's F=ma is inconsistent because Newton does not define force (F) then defines mass (m) in terms of this undefined force. I think you should be looking for another word besides "inconsistent."
Therefore obviously there must exist some sort of hidden reality or undiscovered theory of nature to which Quantum Mechanics acts as a kind of statistical approximation (an admittedly very successful one for predicting sub atomic particle interaction).
That QM acts as a statistical approximation is correct. That reality may have hidden variables providing causation for QM behavior is outside of QM's purview. So your use of the words "Therefore obviously" and "must" are unwarranted.
In reality all QM is, is an approximation of reality with no physical explanation.
Yes, that's correct. Such systematic approximations go by the name of "scientific theories." That it has no physical explanation--i.e., it does not rest upon more general theory--implies only that it is a relatively fundamental theory.
That’s what EPR points out. The reluctance of the scientific community to acknowledge that is where the problem is.
No, the reluctance of the scientific community to acknowledge that QM is anything but a scientific theory is the practice of good science. I acknowledge that some scientists and many commentators allow their positivist-styled sensibilities to get carried away and "ontologize" QM, leaving the public thinking that QM is the true nature of reality, rather than just a description of its behavior. I acknowledge that CI is conducive to this attitude though CI itself does not ontologize QM. I personally think that ontologizing QM is very unfortunate and speaks a great deal toward the poor state of science education of the public.

But since there are plenty of initiatives to hypothesize causality underlying QM, I don't see any reason to fear that science is giving up on seeking for a hidden reality in which to ground QM. When one of these hypotheses can suggest a testable experiment and be confirmed thereby, then we'll have a new theory, not before.
So let me propose an experiment which could settle this once and for all. My idea is that there is a physical explanation for the superluminal connection. The superluminal connection must be composed of a material object whose properties are modified in the special case of phase correlated pairs (twins). Normally the mediator does not allow faster than light speed electromagnetic wave. The correlation key is in the creation of the twin pair. Concentrate on this next statement. Something happens in their creation that physically entangles them and until that entanglement is disturbed they remain physically connected. They are spatially separated yet their locality remains intact. I believe that the twin pair are connected through a physical medium. That medium is the mediator of the physical connection. Therefore if that medium does physically exist we should be able to disturb the connection in a way that Quantum mechanics does not predict. Uh oh! If I am correct QM is in trouble. All that is needed is to have the two detectors as normally done for the EPR experiment. We now place in the path of one of the photons about midway between the source and the detector an electronically controlled polarizer or some other type of filter that would break the physical connection. We run the experiment as normal without activating the interference device. We will get results the QM predict. In phase 2 we change one thing. We activate the interference filter after the photon passes by not before. QM predicts this should have no effect. But if it is like I say, the activation of the interference filter after the particle passes by will break the entanglement connection allowing a result to match what classical physics predicts. This will validate that in fact a superluminal connection does exist and in one fell swoop it will prove that both QM and standard classical theory are lacking in a deep explanation for how reality works.

For the sake of discussion, I'll take your word for it that your proposed experiment has not been attempted before, since I don't know any better. Most importantly, you state that QM predicts that the introduction of your proposed interference filter into the path of one of the correlated photons will have no effect on the result. You will have to cite your source for this claim, as I don't buy it. In accord with what I know of EPR experimentation, the deployment of your proposed interference filter seems to me to constitute the introduction of a macroscopic (and therefore deterministic) device into the experimental setup, fundamentally changing the experiment into something other than what you intend. I would therefore expect the results to be consistent with chance (and classical physics) as you expect, but such results would have no more significance than the classically-consistent results of the delayed-choice double-slit experiment, for almost identical reasons.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 5:02 pm
by Xris
Steve3007 wrote:
I, with very little knowledge simply desire an open debate about Gaedes outrageous but feasible alternative but no one appears willing to enter into combat.
Prismatic, for one, listed several specific well defined concrete problems he saw with Gaede's string hypothesis earlier. I created a whole topic devoted to debating Gaede's ideas on this forum a while ago. So I don't really see how you can be justified in saying this.
I must have been on holiday because I never witnessed your opposition. I would be grateful for you pointing them out.

-- Updated Tue May 29, 2012 4:10 pm to add the following --
Prismatic wrote:
Xris wrote: So you are sitting on the fence, not accepting one or the other. Can you argue with certainty for one or the other or are you just as bemused as I? I only introduced Gaede as he makes a valued observation that would or could make quantum turn on its head. Is that what scares most from making any reasoned response? Has Gaede sent shivers down the academic spine? I, with very little knowledge simply desire an open debate about Gaedes outrageous but feasible alternative but no one appears willing to enter into combat. I have heard and read all the scripts on quantum and realised that there is dangerous acceptance at large that requires revolution but we have no rebels.
You've not answered the questions I raised about Gaede in a previous post. Are you scared of making any reasoned response?
I am not scared of any question, why should I be? If you would like to refresh the question or refer to it I will gladly answer. PrismaticI have just found your questions. I have no idea how to answer them in detail at this moment but remember the same questions can be applied to photons, electrons or even gravitons. When your photons leave the source do they make contact with every atom they encounter are there that many photons leaving the source. If we lined up ever atom in the universe,directly in their path, would these photons make contact with them all? Is that any different to a type of EM rope extending between atoms in direct contact with each other? Is there any distance these photons can not cover? The strength of light by photon or electromagnetic tangible contact would be no different in strength or distribution.The transfer of electromagnetic energy through direct contact explains the weird entanglement of the said electron. Can you really dismis the idea with such ease?

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 5:32 pm
by Steve3007
I must have been on holiday because I never witnessed your opposition.
We have conversed about it. You talked about Gaede and pointed out his website. I looked at his website and commented. You replied. I looked some more, read his paper on the rope hypothesis and created a lengthy topic. We talked about that. And so on. As I said at the time, I tried to ignore the ridicule and cartoons and concentrate on finding something worth a serious look.

But, to be honest Xris, it is now a very well established pattern that you just repeat the same things over and over again and simply ignore replies. I don't want to knock it. All good fun. More meat for our conversational stew. But, technically, not actually a debate!

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 5:56 pm
by Xris
Steve3007 wrote:
I must have been on holiday because I never witnessed your opposition.
We have conversed about it. You talked about Gaede and pointed out his website. I looked at his website and commented. You replied. I looked some more, read his paper on the rope hypothesis and created a lengthy topic. We talked about that. And so on. As I said at the time, I tried to ignore the ridicule and cartoons and concentrate on finding something worth a serious look.

But, to be honest Xris, it is now a very well established pattern that you just repeat the same things over and over again and simply ignore replies. I don't want to knock it. All good fun. More meat for our conversational stew. But, technically, not actually a debate!
I may repeat them but you have no given a stated opposition, thats why it there is no debate. I have found Prismatic direct questions but I have not found one question of yours that requires a reply, I have not answered. Prismatic has asked questions and I apologize for not answering them in detail. I will ask again when did you give a pointed opposition to Gaedes theory. A direct EM contact between atoms would explain all the anomalies Quantum has suggested but it is ignored in favour of these damned particles.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 6:21 pm
by Steve3007

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 29th, 2012, 7:27 pm
by Prismatic
Xris wrote:
Prismatic wrote:You've not answered the questions I raised about Gaede in a previous post. Are you scared of making any reasoned response?
I am not scared of any question, why should I be? If you would like to refresh the question or refer to it I will gladly answer. PrismaticI have just found your questions. I have no idea how to answer them in detail at this moment but remember the same questions can be applied to photons, electrons or even gravitons.
Well should we expect to have answers any time soon?
Xris wrote:When your photons leave the source do they make contact with every atom they encounter are there that many photons leaving the source. If we lined up ever atom in the universe,directly in their path, would these photons make contact with them all?
The questions seem ill-formed. How would a photon encounter matter without making contact? What do the words encounter and contact mean in this context?

Proton-atom interactions are well understood. If I remember my physics, generally three things can happen: 1) the photon can pass through; 2) the photon can be absorbed and an electron emitted (photoelectric effect); or 3) the photon can be scattered, transferring part of its energy to an electron and being deflected into another direction with less energy (Compton scattering). A very high energy photon interacting with an atomic nucleus can produce an electron-positron pair in a process called pair production.
Xris wrote:Is that any different to a type of EM rope extending between atoms in direct contact with each other? Is there any distance these photons can not cover? The strength of light by photon or electromagnetic tangible contact would be no different in strength or distribution.The transfer of electromagnetic energy through direct contact explains the weird entanglement of the said electron. Can you really dismis the idea with such ease?
None of this makes any sense to me.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 8:38 am
by Andlan
I am glad that my initial post started such a long discussion. Perhaps I should try to reframe my initial question in light of the responses, and hope we can get back to philosophical rather than scientific questions. To my mind, philosophy is about the conditions for truth itself; about what it is possible to know, rather than the details of what we do know. Many of the discussion threads have drifted off into actual science, which to my mind is better left to the professionals.

I think most of us would agree QM is an extremely successful theory not just technologically, but also in its ability to shed light on nature. The philosophical problem is more about what kind of world QM describes. As Steve lucidly explained, before QM it was assumed that we could always reduce the impact of our measurement taking; that the aim of physics was to gain improved objectivity by purifying our abstractions, making them less and less dependent on where and when we make them; trying to remove all contingent, incidental variables. The ultimate aim was thus to make the experimenter irrelevant. My initial post was prompted by a fear that the Copenhagen Interpretation had made the observer an essential component of the analysis, rather than an obstacle that could be slowly circumvented. My question is whether this is (i) purely due to the fact that we are trying to measure microscopic things with macroscopic instruments, or whether (ii) QM says something about the project of physics itself (epistemologically speaking) or nature itself (ontologically speaking). I prefer to believe it is (i) rather than (ii). In other words, we could have a deterministic physics as long as we could build our apparatus out of microscopic parts. Until that day, we will have to rely on unobservable (and thus unverifiable?) pure mathematical notions, such as the collapse of the wave-function. Am I right?

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 11:10 am
by Prismatic
Andlan wrote: My question is whether this is (i) purely due to the fact that we are trying to measure microscopic things with macroscopic instruments, or whether (ii) QM says something about the project of physics itself (epistemologically speaking) or nature itself (ontologically speaking). I prefer to believe it is (i) rather than (ii). In other words, we could have a deterministic physics as long as we could build our apparatus out of microscopic parts. Until that day, we will have to rely on unobservable (and thus unverifiable?) pure mathematical notions, such as the collapse of the wave-function. Am I right?
It seems not. The indeterminacy is due to the non-commutativity of Hermitian operators in Hilbert space and cannot be removed from the theory by improvements in experimental apparatus. More recent efforts to discover how to deal with quantum gravity all involved C* algebras, which are non-commutative. In other words the indeterminacy appears to be intrinsic and not removable. A completely different mathematical description of quantum mechanics is what would be needed.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 11:41 am
by Andlan
I am not really asking for improvements in apparatus. I don't see how we could ever measure microscopically since we have to look with our eyes. Science cannot exist solely in a theoretical space.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 1:01 pm
by A Poster He or I
My question is whether this is (i) purely due to the fact that we are trying to measure microscopic things with macroscopic instruments, or whether (ii) QM says something about the project of physics itself (epistemologically speaking) or nature itself (ontologically speaking). I prefer to believe it is (i) rather than (ii). In other words, we could have a deterministic physics as long as we could build our apparatus out of microscopic parts. Until that day, we will have to rely on unobservable (and thus unverifiable?) pure mathematical notions, such as the collapse of the wave-function. Am I right?
Philosophically, then, I opt for the conclusion that QM says something about the epistemological limits of physics as a scientific approach. I hold onto the possibility that such limits are somehow surmountable in principle, though I do not see how myself. I don't really care if it says anything ontological about nature simply because (1) I don't actually believe humans know what they are talking about when they talk about the ontology of anything, and (2) I think the purpose of science should be to catalogue experience by way of ever-the-more comprehensive models for the purposes of utility, prediction, and problem-solving; not to uncover universal truths (especially since scientific methodology shows no particularly priveleged approach toward such an idolatrous goal). I guess that's why I am pro-CI.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 1:25 pm
by Xris
Prismatic wrote:
Xris wrote: Yes I have been seriously influenced by Gaede and I have never found a scientific response to his claims that can discount him. If he can give a laymen like me a very clear and alternative theory why are quantum particle scientist finding their theories so hard to explain?
This makes your position much clearer than anything you have said previously. You might think about Gaede's theory a bit more carefully.

Gaede's rope hypothesis as he himself explains it does away with all the mathematics of physics and such ill-defined and arcane notions as fields, forces, quanta, elementary particles, etc. and replaces them with a simple concept—a rope—which he insists is a physical object. Not a concept, but an actual physical object. In the case of electromagnetism the object is a rope with two strands, an electric thread and a magnetic thread. Using this model he gives some easy and attractive explanations of wave length and frequency that may be helpful to those who find mathematics daunting. Here are the problems:

1. What are these ropes? Gaede says they are physical objects composed of strands like threads, but gives no other characterization of them. Why not?

2. If these ropes are physical objects that occupy space and have physical properties, why haven't we discovered them physically? There are enormous numbers of them in the universe one between every pair of atoms in the universe so there must be something like 10^160 ropes. Yet we have never found a single one.

3. Either the particle or wave theory of light gives an easy explanation for the inverse variation of luminance with the square of the distance from a light source—either the number of photons or the energy of waves is distributed over the area of a larger sphere. The rope theory cannot do this since the number of ropes from the source to the receiver is the same no matter what the distance.

4. Quantization of energy cannot be explained at all by the rope hypothesis. You pull on a rope and it extends continuously. So how do you explain quanta and Planck's law? In fact Planck's law must be false if the rope hypothesis is true, but it is experimentally verified.
That will do for a start. I'm interested in hearing your answers to these objections.[/quote]
Prismatic I may be wrong but I think you are getting a little annoyed. I am sorry I do not live up to your high expectations so lets consider your questions one at a time. These ropes, would or could you object to them being pure energy an energy that must exist at some point in the need to reduce mass to its very basic form. If mass is an expression of energy can energy be expressed without the need to envisage mass or a particle?

Ropes that exist as particles would be very hard to imaging but a potential energy that links atoms or the expression of energy is no harder to imagine than photons travelling between atoms separated by millions of light years and across the enormity of the universe. Where do you draw your line of credibility?

The rope theory does explain the anomaly of particles appearing as waves and the strength of the EM force travelling through ropes would express the same dissipation and distribution as the concept of particles.

Quantized of energy? I have no idea what the question is so you will have to leave that with me for just bit longer.

Prismatic, I appreciate your learned input and if I have upset you then I can only apologize. Please let this be an exercise rather than a battle of wills.xris

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 2:28 pm
by Prismatic
I don't want to put out more questions while you are still at work on the last set, but has Gaede proposed any experiment that would distinguish between his rope hypothesis and standard physics? If these ropes are, as Gaede claims, genuine physical entities, they must have physical properties. What are those properties?
a potential energy that links atoms or the expression of energy is no harder to imagine than photons travelling between atoms separated by millions of light years and across the enormity of the universe. Where do you draw your line of credibility?
But we see light from vast distances with the aid of telescopes of various kinds. That makes it quite credible. I find ropes of potential energy or whatever much more obscure.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 3:01 pm
by Xris
Prismatic wrote:I don't want to put out more questions while you are still at work on the last set, but has Gaede proposed any experiment that would distinguish between his rope hypothesis and standard physics? If these ropes are, as Gaede claims, genuine physical entities, they must have physical properties. What are those properties?
a potential energy that links atoms or the expression of energy is no harder to imagine than photons travelling between atoms separated by millions of light years and across the enormity of the universe. Where do you draw your line of credibility?
But we see light from vast distances with the aid of telescopes of various kinds. That makes it quite credible. I find ropes of potential energy or whatever much more obscure.
You will have to explain your objections on the question of quantized energy just little clearer to me.

Do you think the transfer of light by anything other than photons is out of the question? If photons, these proposed discrete particles, are capable of traveling for almost an eternity what constantly propels them? It is more feasible to imagine a transfer of energy than a constant stream of particles that have no mass. What makes them act like waves while maintaining the concept of particles.The theory answers more questions than it asks. It answers the quandary of an object travelling at the speed of light while emitting light. It answers the question of particles created at the speed of light.It answers the question of the duality of electrons and observational interference. I have just as much incredulity towards particles that are not particles as you have towards a tangible contact between atoms. It may be total nonsense but it deserves to be examined with less stuffy arrogance than I have observed.thanks xris.

Re: Indeterminancy in physics

Posted: May 30th, 2012, 3:56 pm
by Prismatic
Xris wrote: You will have to explain your objections on the question of quantized energy just little clearer to me.
It's a well-known story. The discovery that initiated quantum mechanics was due to Max Planck in 1900. Classical theory predicted that the spectral radiance of a black body in thermal equilibrium was inversely proportional to the fourth power of the wavelength. This did not agree with experimental results and it predicted that at short wavelengths the radiance would be enormously large—the so-called ultraviolet catastrophe.

Planck showed that assuming the energy can only be emitted in packets or quanta determined by the wavelength—the so-called photons—produced a distribution in agreement with experimental results and without the arbitrarily large radiances at short wave-lengths. My question is how Planck's law—the curve of energy distribution for different wavelengths—can be explained with the rope hypothesis. How is the energy in the ropes confined to quanta?
Xris wrote: If photons, these proposed discrete particles, are capable of traveling for almost an eternity what constantly propels them?
Newton's First Law of Motion: Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.
Xris wrote:It may be total nonsense but it deserves to be examined with less stuffy arrogance than I have observed.thanks xris.
The arrogance is Gaede's and it is not stuffy—it is colossal. He asserts all of physics from Maxwell on is absolutely wrong and that mathematics, enormously successful in physics, ought to be abandoned as a mode of explanation. All physicists are stupid in his estimation for even bothering with mathematics. All the work of thousands of physicists and mathematicians over more than two hundred years which have brought forth the technology behind nearly every modern invention is to be discarded because Gaede understands ropes better than photons.

You are an advocate of Gaede's rope hypothesis and equally as ready as he to dismiss the successful science behind electromagnetic theory and quantum mechanics because it has no intuitive appeal to you. Yet you have no answers at all to simple questions about his ideas.