Philosophy Discussion Forums

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 14th, 2024, 3:44 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑October 14th, 2024, 2:31 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 13th, 2024, 9:05 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑October 12th, 2024, 5:44 pm

Huh? Those who compete seek to win. That's normal. It's baked into the nature of competition. As is seeking the weakest possible opponent, as it maximizes the statistical chance of winning.

Bullying isn't a strategy, it's a subset of all possible competitive endeavors. Specifically in cases where there is an expectation of social cohesion, say as between classmates or coworkers (and within animal species) which is then violated, hence bullying. No one would describe a soldier "bullying" the enemy, since there is no social expectation of cooperative behavior. No, soldiers defeat, annihilate and decimate enemies. Senior soldiers bully underlings ON THEIR OWN SIDE, but not the enemy. Because of the social expectation of cooperation between soldiers on the same side.

That's an illuminating illustration. And it also offers an indication that bullying is associated (at the least) with competition. "Bullying is a subset of all possible competitive endeavors" tells us that bullying is one (of several) tools at the disposal of the competitor. I would agree with that. Those who compete seek to win, as you observe, and they use whatever tools they need to, to achieve their aims. But it's all a bit sociopathic, isn't it? Goal attainment, indifferent to the cost to others.

Yes, bullying is sociopathic as it occurs in violation of social norms and expectations. Competition is not generally sociopathic since in the majority of cases it occurs in socially designated areas of legitimate competition.

I would say bullying is more usually psychologically predatory than sociopathic. It isn't necessarily sadistic. Often it's a means to an end - fighting dirty to gain an unfair edge in competition. One doesn't need to be a sociopath to bully, just an immature or cynical human. It's one of many nasty possible behaviours that we humans manage to perpetrate in the argy bargy of life.

I guess in my wsy of understanding fighting "clean", fighting "dirty" and bullying are three separate entities. In the first two the goal is winning the prize that goes to the victor, they differentiate in the technique used to obtain the win. In the third (bullying), there may or may not even be a prize, the bully isn't so interested in that, he's more interested in violating the victim's understanding of "fairness" in how the game is supposed to be played, than winning the victory. In summary, it's more abouy the victim losing, than the bully winning. It's about humiliation.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑Yesterday, 4:21 pm Bullying is overlooked by too many people and even encouraged by some as something that will make the victims stronger. The opposite is usually true. In adolescents it can lead to suicides.

I wonder if the differences we are seeing here in this topic could be down to whether we were/are bullies, the victims of bullies, or one of the lucky ones who stands between them, unnoticed?

LuckyR wrote: ↑Today, 2:17 am In summary, it's more about the victim losing, than the bully winning. It's about humiliation.

Yes, that is the over-riding view from the perspective of the victim(s). Even if there is more to it, in the wider scheme of things.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑Yesterday, 6:11 pm You did not understand what I was saying.

Yes. And I'm sorry my queries have diverted the discussion a little. But it's important to understand what's being said, and that isn't always easy when it comes to philosophy, where we sometimes want to make quite subtle points or distinctions.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑Yesterday, 6:11 pm I know more about bullying than anyone here by a long chalk. I am not expert in many things, but I am expert in this area. I was almost driven to suicide by extreme bullying throughout high school, and later was bullied at various jobs.

You're an autist. Almost all of us were and are bullied. We make particularly good targets, it seems. When we look at it from our angle, it's difficult to accept the apparent connection between bullying and competition, which makes it look as though bullying is actually a necessary human attribute.