Philosophy Discussion Forums

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am Why can the clear thinking of philosophy and science not be brought to bear on understanding this longstanding conflict?

Because many things lie below the surface here? Deepest is religion — some Jewish people feel that the land on which the current state of Israel rests was given to the Jews by God. Then there is who has lived there the longest, thereby obtaining title to the lands? There is the treatment of those living (and dying) in occupied Palestine. The list goes on, and many or most of the items on that list are not wholly reasonable or rational, especially after they have festered in the contemporary culture of one side or the other for many decades, becoming more bitter and twisted over time.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am People are behaving in irrational ways in Israel/Gaza. What might be the reasons for that? Might a better understanding of their motives help them to resolve their differences?

Do they want, at this moment, to resolve their differences? If not, is it appropriate for outside agents to push or force them in that direction?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 12:00 pm

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am Why can the clear thinking of philosophy and science not be brought to bear on understanding this longstanding conflict?

Because many things lie below the surface here? Deepest is religion — some Jewish people feel that the land on which the current state of Israel rests was given to the Jews by God. Then there is who has lived there the longest, thereby obtaining title to the lands? There is the treatment of those living (and dying) in occupied Palestine. The list goes on, and many or most of the items on that list are not wholly reasonable or rational, especially after they have festered in the contemporary culture of one side or the other for many decades, becoming more bitter and twisted over time.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am People are behaving in irrational ways in Israel/Gaza. What might be the reasons for that? Might a better understanding of their motives help them to resolve their differences?

Do they want, at this moment, to resolve their differences? If not, is it appropriate for outside agents to push or force them in that direction?

I would say the deepest is psychology. Even a cursory, dispassionate review of the circumstances surrounding the creation of the state of Israel and the policies of the Israeli government makes what is happening a certainty. The only surprise is that it didn't happen sooner.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 12:00 pm

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am Why can the clear thinking of philosophy and science not be brought to bear on understanding this longstanding conflict?

Because many things lie below the surface here? Deepest is religion — some Jewish people feel that the land on which the current state of Israel rests was given to the Jews by God. Then there is who has lived there the longest, thereby obtaining title to the lands? There is the treatment of those living (and dying) in occupied Palestine. The list goes on, and many or most of the items on that list are not wholly reasonable or rational, especially after they have festered in the contemporary culture of one side or the other for many decades, becoming more bitter and twisted over time.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am People are behaving in irrational ways in Israel/Gaza. What might be the reasons for that? Might a better understanding of their motives help them to resolve their differences?

Do they want, at this moment, to resolve their differences? If not, is it appropriate for outside agents to push or force them in that direction?

Ok, so it's hopeless and no amount of reasoning can help. There is nothing for it but for them to go on killing each other and the last man standing wins. Is that what you really think?

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 11:33 am Why can the clear thinking of philosophy and science not be brought to bear on understanding this longstanding conflict?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 12:00 pm ...

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 21st, 2023, 12:24 pm OK, so it's hopeless and no amount of reasoning can help. There is nothing for it but for them to go on killing each other and the last man standing wins. Is that what you really think?

Your own response illustrates well how hard it is to hang onto reason and rationality in the face of such an emotionally-charged conflict...

The true end of the colonial concept of slavery and exploration, and possibly the coming of a nuclear winter, bundle up!!

The BRICS forever!

Only the application of reason will solve the problem in the Middle East. For reason to gain any traction, people in the Middle East are going to have to be persuaded to get religion out of the picture so they can discuss the problem like sensible adults. I am not hopeful that this will be possible any time soon.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2023, 6:46 pm Only the application of reason will solve the problem in the Middle East. For reason to gain any traction, people in the Middle East are going to have to be persuaded to get religion out of the picture so they can discuss the problem like sensible adults. I am not hopeful that this will be possible any time soon.

I wonder if your proposed solution is idealised, and maybe a little impractical? The way humans behave is more or less as it always has been. There are few signs that this will change significantly. And so we can expect the humans will continue to think and act following the principles of reason, occasionally, but also heavily influenced by emotion and feeling, not to mention beliefs, religious, ideological, and political.

In this case, I think the core issue of the conflict is not religious, but nationalistic or geographic — i.e. the Palestinian lands that Palestinians seek to reclaim for themselves once more... And that discussion, sadly, has little to do with reason, and a lot more to do with the 'imperial' theft of land and resources.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:09 am

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2023, 6:46 pm Only the application of reason will solve the problem in the Middle East. For reason to gain any traction, people in the Middle East are going to have to be persuaded to get religion out of the picture so they can discuss the problem like sensible adults. I am not hopeful that this will be possible any time soon.

I wonder if your proposed solution is idealised, and maybe a little impractical?

Indeed it is. That's why I'm not hopeful that it will be possible any time soon.

The following organization might be of interest. Similar to eco-feminism, it seeks to establish a basis for peace in efforts to protect nature.

EcoPeace was formed in 1994, bringing together Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians and Jordanians in the wake of the Arab-Israeli peace processes of the 1990s. As a tri-lateral organization that brings together Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli environmentalists, EcoPeace's primary objective is the promotion of cooperative efforts to protect a shared environmental heritage.

EcoPeace Middle East is an organization that promotes peace and cooperation between Israelis, Palestinians, and Jordanians through environmental initiatives. The organization recognizes that environmental issues, such as water scarcity and pollution, are shared problems that require cooperation and collaboration to solve. EcoPeace Middle East's work is an example of how environmentalism can be used as a tool for promoting peace and cooperation between different groups of people.

Working for peace through environmental cooperation. We are Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli environmentalists working together to protect our water — and our future.
https://ecopeaceme.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoPeace_Middle_East

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 20th, 2023, 8:35 am

value wrote: ↑October 18th, 2023, 6:02 pm Culture is shaped by philosophy and therefore my conclusion is that philosophy should be held responsible.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 19th, 2023, 9:08 amAnd yet philosophy is shaped by culture, so perhaps we should conclude that culture is responsible? Science is shaped by culture, as is anything that humans have created or invented. Donald Trump, as we have all come to know him, is more a cultural artefact than a person. So perhaps we should be holding culture to account?

value wrote: ↑October 19th, 2023, 5:25 pm When you would argue that philosophy is shaped by culture, it would need to be a cultural 'belief' as a bias (deviation) of what is pure philosophy, which is dogmatism. Pure philosophy has nothing to do with belief per se and is not 'shaped' by it. Pure philosophy is not about opinion.

At most one could argue that philosophy would 'reflect' on culture but that is not the shaping of philosophy other than how anything else in the world can inform philosophy.

[...]

So I would argue that your assertion would be incorrect. Culture is shaped by philosophy and not the other way around. Philosophy might even be considered the source of the world, of the Universe, where it all begins as it were.

OK, I withdraw my comment. It wasn't really an arguable position, on reflection. I was (over-)reacting to your statement that "culture is shaped by philosophy", which I believe to be a misunderstanding. Philosophy is part of human culture, as are science, maths, politics, history, geography, art, fashion, and any other human invention/creation we can think of. Culture is the parent; philosophy is the 'child'.

Philosophy is a hobby practised by a small minority of humans. It does not have the position or influence that you ascribe to it, IMO. And I am not clear even on whether philosophy *should* have the position and influence you ascribe to it.

Indeed. Certainly this is a Machiavellian position, that the sovereign must deal in the material world and cannot be bothered with the metaphysical. Hence what is moral "good" is of a consequentialist nature in the material, ie: do what must be done for the good of my people, even it it means killing others.

However, I think there should be space for material solutions based on philosophical ideas. Applied philosophy, if you will. I'll try to post to this end, get the conversations started.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:09 am In this case, I think the core issue of the conflict is not religious, but nationalistic or geographic

I used to think that. That the issue was two tribes with a claim to the same patch of ground, and it's only an accident that religion is part of the social glue that gives each tribe its identity.

But now I see that as a projection of modern Western assumptions that nationality is identity and religion is a private belief, and race is something that nice people don't judge by.

There was no Israeli identity before 1948. And according to one post further up the thread, there was no Palestinian identity before the 1960s. But Arab and Jew go back millennia. To Isaac and Ishmael the sons of Abraham, if you believe the tradition.

The hate on both sides is closer to racism than we modern Westerners are comfortable with.

Where religion ends and race begins is maybe not clear-cut when it comes to Arabs and Jews. But that mix is what the conflict is about - the "core issue".

You've read of Israel being attacked by 5 Arab armies on day 2 of its existence. Have you really got your head around that ?

Do you believe in the Western model of nation-states ? With a right of self-defence and a duty to abide by whatever treaties they make, until the other side tears it up ? A model that those of any race and religion can work with.

Seems like Israel is prepared to play by those rules. And Hamas isn't.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 4:25 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:09 am In this case, I think the core issue of the conflict is not religious, but nationalistic or geographic

I used to think that. That the issue was two tribes with a claim to the same patch of ground, and it's only an accident that religion is part of the social glue that gives each tribe its identity.

But now I see that as a projection of modern Western assumptions that nationality is identity and religion is a private belief, and race is something that nice people don't judge by.

There was no Israeli identity before 1948. And according to one post further up the thread, there was no Palestinian identity before the 1960s. But Arab and Jew go back millennia. To Isaac and Ishmael the sons of Abraham, if you believe the tradition.

The hate on both sides is closer to racism than we modern Westerners are comfortable with.

Where religion ends and race begins is maybe not clear-cut when it comes to Arabs and Jews. But that mix is what the conflict is about - the "core issue".

You've read of Israel being attacked by 5 Arab armies on day 2 of its existence. Have you really got your head around that ?

Do you believe in the Western model of nation-states ? With a right of self-defence and a duty to abide by whatever treaties they make, until the other side tears it up ? A model that those of any race and religion can work with.

Seems like Israel is prepared to play by those rules. And Hamas isn't.

"Identity" is a system of myth. It's not in any sense objectively real.
It's acts like a ball and chain on thinkingm weighing people down and creating systems of conflict and hate.
Look at the realms of conflict in our own society and you find that arbitrary identity factors are at the heart of it all.

Such myths are reified in political policy.
In the West bank Palestinians are daily evicted from homes their families have lived in for generations. Once emptied the propertis are renovated and offered to Jews who can't make a go of it in New York. This is funded by American tax dollars.
With each eviction a new generation of homeless and resentful Arabs are made.
How is this made sense of? God promised the land to Jews, is the claim, so that justifies punishing "sub-human Arabs".

value wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 4:22 pm together.jpg

Better to burn both flags together

Israel has long behaved badly towards the Palestinians whose land they occupy. Some Palestinians, backed by Iran, have recently behaved very badly. Israel, is now behaving very badly indeed. Much of the bad behaviour on both sides is based in irrational religion. Given this, how might this problem be resolved?

For the record, to keep it visible on this new page of the discussion.

The following organization might be of interest. Similar to eco-feminism, it seeks to establish a basis for peace in efforts to protect nature.

EcoPeace was formed in 1994, bringing together Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians and Jordanians in the wake of the Arab-Israeli peace processes of the 1990s. As a tri-lateral organization that brings together Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli environmentalists, EcoPeace's primary objective is the promotion of cooperative efforts to protect a shared environmental heritage.

EcoPeace Middle East is an organization that promotes peace and cooperation between Israelis, Palestinians, and Jordanians through environmental initiatives. The organization recognizes that environmental issues, such as water scarcity and pollution, are shared problems that require cooperation and collaboration to solve. EcoPeace Middle East's work is an example of how environmentalism can be used as a tool for promoting peace and cooperation between different groups of people.

Working for peace through environmental cooperation. We are Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli environmentalists working together to protect our water — and our future.
https://ecopeaceme.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoPeace_Middle_East


Reason and intellect is a higher good than war and revenge. Philosophy can be the solution in my opinion and because of it, philosophy should be held responsible.

"Modern man is to be expected to evolve beyond barbaric practices such as war and revenge if it intends to secure longer term prosperity. Intelligence before practice means overcoming darkness before it was ever present, and thus, to prevent war and revenge in favour of reason."