Philosophy Discussion Forums

Xenophon wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 7:29 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑September 25th, 2022, 8:49 pm What are your thoughts on Aaron Burr being played by a black actor in Hamilton?

What would be your thoughts about, say, a young Jackie Chan playing Kareem Abdul Jabbar in a movie?

It's art. It's all good. Enjoy the movie.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 9:56 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2022, 7:07 am I saw a lovely tic-tok of some young black girls remarking with amazement that the mermaid was a black girl. For me that was enough to convince me that is was worth making the effort. Giving kids representation is very important for them to avoid alienation.

However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.

But there is a growing problem which undermines the effort. In RIngs of Power for example as in other programmes (eg Wheel of Time) which have several examples of white characters with black children and black parents with white children. When we watch a drama we enter into a contract whereby the audience suspend their disbelief and pretend that what we are watching is real. This is most important with fantasy programs. So why not cast Morgan Freeman as the child or even wife of a character played by Emma Watson? WHy not? Because it would be ridiculous! It would stop you in your tracks and the spell of belief would be broken. So why is the daughter of the HIgh King of Numenor(white) and black women - a great performance by the way, but an example of bad casting since she simply does not look like her father in a very profound way.

So why not make the entire family of Isildur black instead? The point is Amazon are imposing a moral point virtue signalling in the most exhibitionist way. When I watch a series on Netflix or Amazon, I am pleased to see a range of different human groups represented, but I do not want it to be in my face to the degree that it makes the drama look idiotic.

I would just like to post my appreciation of this post. Nailed it.

It's sad that people are, in a sense, not being allowed to escape into art, especially at a time when escapism is especially desirable. Instead, viewers must always be reminded of the world's problems. It's cruel to viewers and recklessly divisive. The current virtue display behaviour is creating a backlash against minorities (and we'd been doing so well until recently). People have become resentful as their favourite stories are increasingly distorted by political messaging, and some blame the messenger.

Thanks.
Today I saw a meme of BLACK Superman flying with a massively FAT Louis Lane , embalzoned with "Disney's Next Project".
This popped up on FaceBook, as so many of these things do, and, it seems, in increasing intensity.
But completely unsolicited.
I'm starting to call this "Hatebait", desigend to illicit anger, from both sides of the argument (if there is an argument).
It get's the redneck gammons who are red with rage about black mermaids but also the reasonably woke people for being idiotically lampooned.
Naturally the meme if absurd, since not such thing has been suggested. It is just designed to collect attention and force people into conflict with no regard for the consequences.
THe stream of this hate bait is unremitting, whilst there are real and pressing issues in the world. It is almost as if there is an establishment plot to keep people's attention away from the real issues and keep the hate factory going.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 1:47 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 9:56 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2022, 7:07 am I saw a lovely tic-tok of some young black girls remarking with amazement that the mermaid was a black girl. For me that was enough to convince me that is was worth making the effort. Giving kids representation is very important for them to avoid alienation.

However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.

But there is a growing problem which undermines the effort. In RIngs of Power for example as in other programmes (eg Wheel of Time) which have several examples of white characters with black children and black parents with white children. When we watch a drama we enter into a contract whereby the audience suspend their disbelief and pretend that what we are watching is real. This is most important with fantasy programs. So why not cast Morgan Freeman as the child or even wife of a character played by Emma Watson? WHy not? Because it would be ridiculous! It would stop you in your tracks and the spell of belief would be broken. So why is the daughter of the HIgh King of Numenor(white) and black women - a great performance by the way, but an example of bad casting since she simply does not look like her father in a very profound way.

So why not make the entire family of Isildur black instead? The point is Amazon are imposing a moral point virtue signalling in the most exhibitionist way. When I watch a series on Netflix or Amazon, I am pleased to see a range of different human groups represented, but I do not want it to be in my face to the degree that it makes the drama look idiotic.

I would just like to post my appreciation of this post. Nailed it.

It's sad that people are, in a sense, not being allowed to escape into art, especially at a time when escapism is especially desirable. Instead, viewers must always be reminded of the world's problems. It's cruel to viewers and recklessly divisive. The current virtue display behaviour is creating a backlash against minorities (and we'd been doing so well until recently). People have become resentful as their favourite stories are increasingly distorted by political messaging, and some blame the messenger.

Thanks.
Today I saw a meme of BLACK Superman flying with a massively FAT Louis Lane , embalzoned with "Disney's Next Project".
This popped up on FaceBook, as so many of these things do, and, it seems, in increasing intensity.
But completely unsolicited.
I'm starting to call this "Hatebait", desigend to illicit anger, from both sides of the argument (if there is an argument).
It get's the redneck gammons who are red with rage about black mermaids but also the reasonably woke people for being idiotically lampooned.
Naturally the meme if absurd, since not such thing has been suggested. It is just designed to collect attention and force people into conflict with no regard for the consequences.
THe stream of this hate bait is unremitting, whilst there are real and pressing issues in the world. It is almost as if there is an establishment plot to keep people's attention away from the real issues and keep the hate factory going.

I was shocked that the director of the upcoming rehash or rehash of Star Wars had been quoted as wanting to make men feel uncomfortable. It seems to me that Disney are using ragebait as a marketing ploy. I cannot remember the last time I saw a pre-release interview from Disney that didn't entirely focus on race, gender and sexuality. They don't talk about the stories, which is why their stories nowadays are so hollow; it's seemingly not a priority.

It seems foolish for a company to troll half its fans, and there must be some very unhappy shareholders. There have been numerous bait-and-switches where loved characters are quickly replaced by a female version, a coloured version, or a female coloured version, who is better than the original in every way but is tokenistic, a blank slate representing [x] with zero personality or arc.

As far as I'm concerned, last years' losses had Disney reaping the bitter and divisive fruit they had sown.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 4:51 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 1:47 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 9:56 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2022, 7:07 am I saw a lovely tic-tok of some young black girls remarking with amazement that the mermaid was a black girl. For me that was enough to convince me that is was worth making the effort. Giving kids representation is very important for them to avoid alienation.

However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.

But there is a growing problem which undermines the effort. In RIngs of Power for example as in other programmes (eg Wheel of Time) which have several examples of white characters with black children and black parents with white children. When we watch a drama we enter into a contract whereby the audience suspend their disbelief and pretend that what we are watching is real. This is most important with fantasy programs. So why not cast Morgan Freeman as the child or even wife of a character played by Emma Watson? WHy not? Because it would be ridiculous! It would stop you in your tracks and the spell of belief would be broken. So why is the daughter of the HIgh King of Numenor(white) and black women - a great performance by the way, but an example of bad casting since she simply does not look like her father in a very profound way.

So why not make the entire family of Isildur black instead? The point is Amazon are imposing a moral point virtue signalling in the most exhibitionist way. When I watch a series on Netflix or Amazon, I am pleased to see a range of different human groups represented, but I do not want it to be in my face to the degree that it makes the drama look idiotic.

I would just like to post my appreciation of this post. Nailed it.

It's sad that people are, in a sense, not being allowed to escape into art, especially at a time when escapism is especially desirable. Instead, viewers must always be reminded of the world's problems. It's cruel to viewers and recklessly divisive. The current virtue display behaviour is creating a backlash against minorities (and we'd been doing so well until recently). People have become resentful as their favourite stories are increasingly distorted by political messaging, and some blame the messenger.

Thanks.
Today I saw a meme of BLACK Superman flying with a massively FAT Louis Lane , embalzoned with "Disney's Next Project".
This popped up on FaceBook, as so many of these things do, and, it seems, in increasing intensity.
But completely unsolicited.
I'm starting to call this "Hatebait", desigend to illicit anger, from both sides of the argument (if there is an argument).
It get's the redneck gammons who are red with rage about black mermaids but also the reasonably woke people for being idiotically lampooned.
Naturally the meme if absurd, since not such thing has been suggested. It is just designed to collect attention and force people into conflict with no regard for the consequences.
THe stream of this hate bait is unremitting, whilst there are real and pressing issues in the world. It is almost as if there is an establishment plot to keep people's attention away from the real issues and keep the hate factory going.

I was shocked that the director of the upcoming rehash or rehash of Star Wars had been quoted as wanting to make men feel uncomfortable. It seems to me that Disney are using ragebait as a marketing ploy. I cannot remember the last time I saw a pre-release interview from Disney that didn't entirely focus on race, gender and sexuality. They don't talk about the stories, which is why their stories nowadays are so hollow; it's seemingly not a priority.

It seems foolish for a company to troll half its fans, and there must be some very unhappy shareholders. There have been numerous bait-and-switches where loved characters are quickly replaced by a female version, a coloured version, or a female coloured version, who is better than the original in every way but is tokenistic, a blank slate representing [x] with zero personality or arc.

As far as I'm concerned, last years' losses had Disney reaping the bitter and divisive fruit they had sown.

I've never seen a Disney press release so cannot say. I just wish that film makers persued policies that gave all areas of the population representation without being so patronisingly pedagogic virtue signalling, and that they would try to preserve the basic realities of the world.

BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.
If they wanted to give this actor an opportunity, write a new story or update this one! There is a distinct lack of black police officers in the force today. This was a missed chance to promote the idea that black people are more than capable of the highest office in any police force.

The only valuable fiction is truthful fiction. There have been great examples where the film industry has taken on racism full in the face. One thinks of the great Sidney Poitier's roles as Mr Tibbs in "The Heat of the Night", or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and To Sir with Love. No punches pulled. No stupid casting errors.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 5:57 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 4:51 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 1:47 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 9:56 am

I would just like to post my appreciation of this post. Nailed it.

It's sad that people are, in a sense, not being allowed to escape into art, especially at a time when escapism is especially desirable. Instead, viewers must always be reminded of the world's problems. It's cruel to viewers and recklessly divisive. The current virtue display behaviour is creating a backlash against minorities (and we'd been doing so well until recently). People have become resentful as their favourite stories are increasingly distorted by political messaging, and some blame the messenger.

Thanks.
Today I saw a meme of BLACK Superman flying with a massively FAT Louis Lane , embalzoned with "Disney's Next Project".
This popped up on FaceBook, as so many of these things do, and, it seems, in increasing intensity.
But completely unsolicited.
I'm starting to call this "Hatebait", desigend to illicit anger, from both sides of the argument (if there is an argument).
It get's the redneck gammons who are red with rage about black mermaids but also the reasonably woke people for being idiotically lampooned.
Naturally the meme if absurd, since not such thing has been suggested. It is just designed to collect attention and force people into conflict with no regard for the consequences.
THe stream of this hate bait is unremitting, whilst there are real and pressing issues in the world. It is almost as if there is an establishment plot to keep people's attention away from the real issues and keep the hate factory going.

I was shocked that the director of the upcoming rehash or rehash of Star Wars had been quoted as wanting to make men feel uncomfortable. It seems to me that Disney are using ragebait as a marketing ploy. I cannot remember the last time I saw a pre-release interview from Disney that didn't entirely focus on race, gender and sexuality. They don't talk about the stories, which is why their stories nowadays are so hollow; it's seemingly not a priority.

It seems foolish for a company to troll half its fans, and there must be some very unhappy shareholders. There have been numerous bait-and-switches where loved characters are quickly replaced by a female version, a coloured version, or a female coloured version, who is better than the original in every way but is tokenistic, a blank slate representing [x] with zero personality or arc.

As far as I'm concerned, last years' losses had Disney reaping the bitter and divisive fruit they had sown.

I've never seen a Disney press release so cannot say. I just wish that film makers persued policies that gave all areas of the population representation without being so patronisingly pedagogic virtue signalling, and that they would try to preserve the basic realities of the world.

BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.
If they wanted to give this actor an opportunity, write a new story or update this one! There is a distinct lack of black police officers in the force today. This was a missed chance to promote the idea that black people are more than capable of the highest office in any police force.

The only valuable fiction is truthful fiction. There have been great examples where the film industry has taken on racism full in the face. One thinks of the great Sidney Poitier's roles as Mr Tibbs in "The Heat of the Night", or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and To Sir with Love. No punches pulled. No stupid casting errors.

Yes, the tokenism is counter-productive, especially when giant corporations are also ruining loved characters and replacing them with bland token hires. That is guaranteed to breed resentment.

As you say, there have been a number of strong movie statements about racism, like Sidney Poitier's deeply moving films. The Colour Purple. To Kill a Mockingbird (there's nothing wrong with it featuring a white rescuer. That dynamic sometimes did exist).

The standard of scriptwriting has dropped too. Can you imagine a movie today with dialogue anywhere near as sophisticated, yet accessible, as in Paddy Chayefsky's Network?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 6:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 5:57 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 4:51 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 1:47 pm

Thanks.
Today I saw a meme of BLACK Superman flying with a massively FAT Louis Lane , embalzoned with "Disney's Next Project".
This popped up on FaceBook, as so many of these things do, and, it seems, in increasing intensity.
But completely unsolicited.
I'm starting to call this "Hatebait", desigend to illicit anger, from both sides of the argument (if there is an argument).
It get's the redneck gammons who are red with rage about black mermaids but also the reasonably woke people for being idiotically lampooned.
Naturally the meme if absurd, since not such thing has been suggested. It is just designed to collect attention and force people into conflict with no regard for the consequences.
THe stream of this hate bait is unremitting, whilst there are real and pressing issues in the world. It is almost as if there is an establishment plot to keep people's attention away from the real issues and keep the hate factory going.

I was shocked that the director of the upcoming rehash or rehash of Star Wars had been quoted as wanting to make men feel uncomfortable. It seems to me that Disney are using ragebait as a marketing ploy. I cannot remember the last time I saw a pre-release interview from Disney that didn't entirely focus on race, gender and sexuality. They don't talk about the stories, which is why their stories nowadays are so hollow; it's seemingly not a priority.

It seems foolish for a company to troll half its fans, and there must be some very unhappy shareholders. There have been numerous bait-and-switches where loved characters are quickly replaced by a female version, a coloured version, or a female coloured version, who is better than the original in every way but is tokenistic, a blank slate representing [x] with zero personality or arc.

As far as I'm concerned, last years' losses had Disney reaping the bitter and divisive fruit they had sown.

I've never seen a Disney press release so cannot say. I just wish that film makers persued policies that gave all areas of the population representation without being so patronisingly pedagogic virtue signalling, and that they would try to preserve the basic realities of the world.

BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.
If they wanted to give this actor an opportunity, write a new story or update this one! There is a distinct lack of black police officers in the force today. This was a missed chance to promote the idea that black people are more than capable of the highest office in any police force.

The only valuable fiction is truthful fiction. There have been great examples where the film industry has taken on racism full in the face. One thinks of the great Sidney Poitier's roles as Mr Tibbs in "The Heat of the Night", or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and To Sir with Love. No punches pulled. No stupid casting errors.

Yes, the tokenism is counter-productive, especially when giant corporations are also ruining loved characters and replacing them with bland token hires. That is guaranteed to breed resentment.

As you say, there have been a number of strong movie statements about racism, like Sidney Poitier's deeply moving films. The Colour Purple. To Kill a Mockingbird (there's nothing wrong with it featuring a white rescuer. That dynamic sometimes did exist).

The standard of scriptwriting has dropped too. Can you imagine a movie today with dialogue anywhere near as sophisticated, yet accessible, as in Paddy Chayefsky's Network?

Gone are the days of directors like Lean, Kramer and Kubrick. The corporate mind seems to take the path of least resistence. Endless remakes and rehashes. Sae anodyne and predictable.
Las month we were offered "Rebel Moon", which is clearly a take on the Magnificent Seven, itself a steal from The Seven Samurai of Kurosawa. Even when they are not remakes, the plot paths of new films are often very predictable.
Big problem. Hero emerges, limited time to solve the problem, Hero meets girl but has a crisis of confidence, then fight the baddies, its all ends with the hero solving the problem by physically beating up the baddy. Just for fun the baddy recovers for another shot, the problem is solves with seconds to spare. There is usually one or two deus-ex-machina for tension along the way.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2022, 7:07 am I saw a lovely tic-tok of some young black girls remarking with amazement that the mermaid was a black girl. For me that was enough to convince me that is was worth making the effort. Giving kids representation is very important for them to avoid alienation.

However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.

seekingpurity wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 6:02 am I think the actual problem is an obsession with skin colour. For example, we could decide right now to create a society thatobsesses and categorises people by eye colour. That would be pretty stupid right? Yet categorising people by skin colour is considered to not be stupid.

[...]

My conclusion is that the whole things is about striving for superiority.

I think you're right. But I think it might be even more general than you describe? Rather than being about (say) skin colour, I think it's about fundamental human them-and-us thinking. Yes, skin-colour-based prejudice is a fine example, but this goes farther. We also discriminate against tall people, and short people too, against men, or women, against the young, or the old, and so on.

I think we can blame evolution for this. Them-us thinking encourages us to work socially with 'us', our tribe or group, for the benefit of all (of 'us', that is!). This enables the success we humans have had, and continue to have. The downside, of course, is that we are prejudiced against 'them', just as we discriminate in favour of 'us'.

As to your final sentence, yes, and maybe it's about wanting more too? Much, much, more; as much more as we can possibly achieve. This places us in competition with others, maybe (for this purpose) identifying everyone except ourselves as 'them'? After all, we have destroyed our planetary ecosystem by consuming anything and everything, without constraint or limit...?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 5:57 pm BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.

I watched and enjoyed it too, but my feelings closely matched yours. They denied that racism, serious and violent racism, even existed. On Downton Abbey, some time ago, a gay servant was treated with kindness, while in the real world he would've been horse-whipped and thrown onto the streets ... or worse.

I think these denials are written so as not to 'offend' the audience by reminding them that their immediate ancestors were so very unpleasant. Some of the audience might even have realised that we continue to hold such values, we just hide them better than we used to. So we pretend, and we lie to ourselves. How very human of us!

Some seem to be baffled that there is a difference between fictional storytelling and a documentary.

LuckyR wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 1:32 pm Some seem to be baffled that there is a difference between fictional storytelling and a documentary.

Like I said above the best fiction is the fiction that is true.

What we seem to have in this denial porn is a rewriting of history and a abrogation of responsibility.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 9:50 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2022, 7:07 am I saw a lovely tic-tok of some young black girls remarking with amazement that the mermaid was a black girl. For me that was enough to convince me that is was worth making the effort. Giving kids representation is very important for them to avoid alienation.

However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.

seekingpurity wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 6:02 am I think the actual problem is an obsession with skin colour. For example, we could decide right now to create a society thatobsesses and categorises people by eye colour. That would be pretty stupid right? Yet categorising people by skin colour is considered to not be stupid.

[...]

My conclusion is that the whole things is about striving for superiority.

I think you're right. But I think it might be even more general than you describe? Rather than being about (say) skin colour, I think it's about fundamental human them-and-us thinking. Yes, skin-colour-based prejudice is a fine example, but this goes farther. We also discriminate against tall people, and short people too, against men, or women, against the young, or the old, and so on.

I think we can blame evolution for this. Them-us thinking encourages us to work socially with 'us', our tribe or group, for the benefit of all (of 'us', that is!). This enables the success we humans have had, and continue to have. The downside, of course, is that we are prejudiced against 'them', just as we discriminate in favour of 'us'.

As to your final sentence, yes, and maybe it's about wanting more too? Much, much, more; as much more as we can possibly achieve. This places us in competition with others, maybe (for this purpose) identifying everyone except ourselves as 'them'? After all, we have destroyed our planetary ecosystem by consuming anything and everything, without constraint or limit...?

Evolution is thing that cannot blamed, since it has no intention.
Though there is a tendancy to act against the "other" and act in concert with those we consdier "us", there is nothing in evolution that has to prescribe who is other of us. Indentities are muliple and complex and can cut across race, creed, political, national and other affliiations.
If there is something to blame, its a lack of education.
And on this issue I think we improved after WW2 but there are forces at play that would have us concentrate on pushing us to focus our attention away from the financial looting that is going on so that we are all more interested in scapegoating immigrants

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 7:56 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 6:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 5:57 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 4:51 pm

I was shocked that the director of the upcoming rehash or rehash of Star Wars had been quoted as wanting to make men feel uncomfortable. It seems to me that Disney are using ragebait as a marketing ploy. I cannot remember the last time I saw a pre-release interview from Disney that didn't entirely focus on race, gender and sexuality. They don't talk about the stories, which is why their stories nowadays are so hollow; it's seemingly not a priority.

It seems foolish for a company to troll half its fans, and there must be some very unhappy shareholders. There have been numerous bait-and-switches where loved characters are quickly replaced by a female version, a coloured version, or a female coloured version, who is better than the original in every way but is tokenistic, a blank slate representing [x] with zero personality or arc.

As far as I'm concerned, last years' losses had Disney reaping the bitter and divisive fruit they had sown.

I've never seen a Disney press release so cannot say. I just wish that film makers persued policies that gave all areas of the population representation without being so patronisingly pedagogic virtue signalling, and that they would try to preserve the basic realities of the world.

BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.
If they wanted to give this actor an opportunity, write a new story or update this one! There is a distinct lack of black police officers in the force today. This was a missed chance to promote the idea that black people are more than capable of the highest office in any police force.

The only valuable fiction is truthful fiction. There have been great examples where the film industry has taken on racism full in the face. One thinks of the great Sidney Poitier's roles as Mr Tibbs in "The Heat of the Night", or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and To Sir with Love. No punches pulled. No stupid casting errors.

Yes, the tokenism is counter-productive, especially when giant corporations are also ruining loved characters and replacing them with bland token hires. That is guaranteed to breed resentment.

As you say, there have been a number of strong movie statements about racism, like Sidney Poitier's deeply moving films. The Colour Purple. To Kill a Mockingbird (there's nothing wrong with it featuring a white rescuer. That dynamic sometimes did exist).

The standard of scriptwriting has dropped too. Can you imagine a movie today with dialogue anywhere near as sophisticated, yet accessible, as in Paddy Chayefsky's Network?

Gone are the days of directors like Lean, Kramer and Kubrick. The corporate mind seems to take the path of least resistence. Endless remakes and rehashes. Sae anodyne and predictable.
Las month we were offered "Rebel Moon", which is clearly a take on the Magnificent Seven, itself a steal from The Seven Samurai of Kurosawa. Even when they are not remakes, the plot paths of new films are often very predictable.
Big problem. Hero emerges, limited time to solve the problem, Hero meets girl but has a crisis of confidence, then fight the baddies, its all ends with the hero solving the problem by physically beating up the baddy. Just for fun the baddy recovers for another shot, the problem is solves with seconds to spare. There is usually one or two deus-ex-machina for tension along the way.

It's rather like what happened to pop music. In the past, there were classic songs created with obvious passion and talent like Strawberry Fields, Classical Gas, Apache, What's Going On, Wipe Out, Macarthur Park, Respect, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Picnic at Hanging Rock, Frankenstein, Us and Them, Jessica, Bohemian Rhapsody, Feels Like Teen Spirit, Hurricane, etc.

However, over time companies build up a body of knowledge about what sells and what doesn't. That experience forms the basis of their formula formulas for hits. These formulas become ever more refined over time. In the past, unusual or innovative art was thought to have potential. Now, any art that is unusual or innovative will be deemed an unacceptable risk.

I noticed a similar process of rationalisation in the workplace. Every perk that helps make a job enjoyable would gradually be stripped away with each budget, as bean-counters searched for savings. They would reduce work conditions to a meanly rationalised standard. It's the evolution of Taylorism, I guess.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 2:39 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 1:32 pm Some seem to be baffled that there is a difference between fictional storytelling and a documentary.

Like I said above the best fiction is the fiction that is true.

What we seem to have in this denial porn is a rewriting of history and a abrogation of responsibility.

An uncommon opinion, nothing more.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 7:05 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 7:56 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 6:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2024, 5:57 pm

I've never seen a Disney press release so cannot say. I just wish that film makers persued policies that gave all areas of the population representation without being so patronisingly pedagogic virtue signalling, and that they would try to preserve the basic realities of the world.

BBC just put out an Agatha Christie TV series in which they cast a black police inspector. The drama is set in 1938. This was a time when there were few black policemen of any kind. And who would not have been taken seriously in England's West Country were it was set. This is a denial of racism. I do not think the cause of racial minorities is best served by trying to pretend that there was no racism in 1938! Such an officer would have met with severe disapproval and it is important to face up to the historical realities of racism in the UK.
If they wanted to give this actor an opportunity, write a new story or update this one! There is a distinct lack of black police officers in the force today. This was a missed chance to promote the idea that black people are more than capable of the highest office in any police force.

The only valuable fiction is truthful fiction. There have been great examples where the film industry has taken on racism full in the face. One thinks of the great Sidney Poitier's roles as Mr Tibbs in "The Heat of the Night", or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and To Sir with Love. No punches pulled. No stupid casting errors.

Yes, the tokenism is counter-productive, especially when giant corporations are also ruining loved characters and replacing them with bland token hires. That is guaranteed to breed resentment.

As you say, there have been a number of strong movie statements about racism, like Sidney Poitier's deeply moving films. The Colour Purple. To Kill a Mockingbird (there's nothing wrong with it featuring a white rescuer. That dynamic sometimes did exist).

The standard of scriptwriting has dropped too. Can you imagine a movie today with dialogue anywhere near as sophisticated, yet accessible, as in Paddy Chayefsky's Network?

Gone are the days of directors like Lean, Kramer and Kubrick. The corporate mind seems to take the path of least resistence. Endless remakes and rehashes. Sae anodyne and predictable.
Las month we were offered "Rebel Moon", which is clearly a take on the Magnificent Seven, itself a steal from The Seven Samurai of Kurosawa. Even when they are not remakes, the plot paths of new films are often very predictable.
Big problem. Hero emerges, limited time to solve the problem, Hero meets girl but has a crisis of confidence, then fight the baddies, its all ends with the hero solving the problem by physically beating up the baddy. Just for fun the baddy recovers for another shot, the problem is solves with seconds to spare. There is usually one or two deus-ex-machina for tension along the way.

It's rather like what happened to pop music. In the past, there were classic songs created with obvious passion and talent like Strawberry Fields, Classical Gas, Apache, What's Going On, Wipe Out, Macarthur Park, Respect, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Picnic at Hanging Rock, Frankenstein, Us and Them, Jessica, Bohemian Rhapsody, Feels Like Teen Spirit, Hurricane, etc.

However, over time companies build up a body of knowledge about what sells and what doesn't. That experience forms the basis of their formula formulas for hits. These formulas become ever more refined over time. In the past, unusual or innovative art was thought to have potential. Now, any art that is unusual or innovative will be deemed an unacceptable risk.

I noticed a similar process of rationalisation in the workplace. Every perk that helps make a job enjoyable would gradually be stripped away with each budget, as bean-counters searched for savings. They would reduce work conditions to a meanly rationalised standard. It's the evolution of Taylorism, I guess.

Yes I think this happens a a level behind the actual song writing.
Before the Beatles, in the UK at least, most pop was written behind the scenes and the artist was selected for the song. But singer/songwriters like Muddy Waters, Chuck berry, and their own musical ancestors came up from the bottom and were exploited by music producers. By the time the Beatles, and Stones were at ork in the 60s the paradigm switched so that the industry promoted great bands but were at arms length when it came to the act of musical creation. Pink FLoyd, Black Sabbath, Led Zep were all writing automomously. But the grip from the industry reached in deeper.
Now we seem to be back to the industry having more control. Not because there are not songwritter/performers out there, but because the industry seem to want to promote those upon which they have maximum control, and so you get empty hearless, formulaic beat pop.
It seems there might even be some science in the creation of addictive sounds, such as Lady Gaga "p-p-p-poker face", techniques of counterpoint and Auto-tune, modulation techniques, looping sequencing, sampling - all reove the artist from the creation process.

LuckyR wrote: ↑January 8th, 2024, 3:18 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 2:39 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑January 7th, 2024, 1:32 pm Some seem to be baffled that there is a difference between fictional storytelling and a documentary.

Like I said above the best fiction is the fiction that is true.

What we seem to have in this denial porn is a rewriting of history and a abrogation of responsibility.

An uncommon opinion, nothing more.

Are you saying that "the best fiction is the fiction that is true" is uncommon??
Rubbish.
What was the last fiction book you read? Now ask yourself if it read true? Look at the most fantastict film of the 21stC. The Lord of the Rings is internally coherent. The relationship between Samwise and Frodo is "true" in that it is a pur expression of loyalty, dedication and friendship. If you can watch their pilgrimage to Mount Doom without getting emotionally touched then I wonder if you might not be all human. ANd yet there is nothing more fictional that TLOTR.