Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Samana Johann]

Parents, like other relay-tions, are not creator of individuals, but just give occasion, space of being, becoming, yet it's total individual where and for what one has gone for, goes on.

But sure, where one tends to, one's preferences grow. Tendentious addiction is what binds. Beings gather together, again and again, on an element. Yet it's possible to go for better relation, possible to renounce, requiring to abond the cause of bond, the addiction.

It's because of the great debt one owes toward parents, as nobody else gave desired, that increasing one's own goodness and give ways to share encouragement toward virtues back, that an individual encounters better, not worse: gratitude, not demand.

Nobody called one to (be)come.

It's intriguing to consider the concept that while parents and immediate environment provide a framework, it's ultimately an individual's choices and inclinations that mold their identity. The idea that our tendencies and predispositions are what bind us and dictate our relations is thought-provoking.

To build upon that thought, one might say that recognizing these predispositions can be the first step towards conscious self-improvement. Awareness of these tendencies and inclinations, whether they stem from family influences or personal choices, can enable an individual to navigate them more effectively.

Your mention of gratitude and not demand is essential too. Acknowledging and being grateful for the platform that parents or society might have provided doesn't necessitate being bound by their expectations or influences. An individual can choose to carve their path based on self-awareness and introspection, using the foundation laid down by parents and society as a stepping stone rather than a chain.

The essence, perhaps, is that while we might not choose where we begin, it's entirely within our realm to decide where we go. Would you agree that this awareness and the resultant choice hold the key to breaking free from detrimental influences?

Not sure if by "this awareness", seeing goodness, gratitude, obligation and by it the burden and suffering, bond by it, was meant by good householder Sushan. But yes, a person of ingratitude is incapable of and higher attainments, incapable of and real grow, not to speak of highest re-lease.

Again, right view (gratitude) is the base even for good wandering on in the sensual world, not to speak of higher and beyond.

Being aware of the huge goodness receiving on and on, speak the mass of debt, the mass of suffering, seek for ways out, yet it's seldom, very seldom, that the way might be getting known, based on the urgency of the situation.

So both, seeing burden, dependence and the huge mass of suffering, and the pointing toward the way out, are required. Very very less could figure the path out by themselves.

If not taught, one aware, full of compassion, if good and renounce, would head toward the Brahma-realms. Common religions sometimes, by their influence, can lead there (of which is temporary, and after having consumed all merits of, right back to the lowest stage, hell, ghosts, animal realms.) Like societies, saw 'West' cirrently still enjoy heavens, yet soon will find them in 'hell', once old merits are gone. A wheel...

I appreciate the clarification. Your mention of the cyclical nature of existence and the transient nature of merits is a somber reminder of the impermanence of all conditioned phenomena. The challenges of navigating samsara, compounded by the influences and predispositions one encounters, can indeed be daunting.

The scenario you've painted—of societies or individuals rising to celestial-like existences and then plummeting back into challenging realms—underscores the urgency of not merely accumulating merit but seeking true liberation. The precariousness of relying solely on accumulated merit, without striving for a deeper understanding and release, is evident.

The mention of the Brahma-realms as a temporary refuge, followed by the potential fall back into lower realms, brings to mind the impermanence of even the most refined states of existence. It's a potent reminder that even in the highest of heavens, the seeds of decline can be present.

Your insights point to the importance of not just recognizing the suffering inherent in cyclic existence but actively seeking the path out. In your view, what are the most crucial practices or principles for one navigating this journey, especially in the context of influences and society?

Leave it, good householder: that one makes one's house, prision, Sisyphus-stupidy.

And as for the possible 'Führer' aspiration or hope for: once Mara thought to be able to convince the Sublime Buddha, that, because so perfect, why then not doing the role of a righteous World-leader... Knowing how individual kamma and effect works, knowing that beings are heir of their actions, the Buddha had no hard to totally reject the idea. Enough burdensome to lead his disciples who had been willing at least, to leave house and stand outwardly first. So he, out of compassion, did 'just' teach on occasion, sacrificing possibilities on stony fields, while focusing there most, where the most prosperity can be expected.

Appreciation for good householders attentive attitude and capability to follow not only strange speech and words, but also meaning behind, yet why still seeking a burdensome anchor in something subject to decay, never under one's control, a burden? To seek honest for the reason for that tendency would bring good householder toward the source of 'just selfish motivated' waste of time, would let him/her see that actually no idea of that his object is, not even tracing heartwood of control of himself, not even him/herself under firm control.

Mindless, not knowing what's going on within one self, not aware of on'es body, feelings, mind quality, truth, being jump from one object to another, maintain it, not aware of the suffering and constant decay. Not seeing suffering, no way that one would even seek, desire, a way out. May one just spend a minute, a second, and observe how it really does.

Enough now. What's the benefit of redundancy by seeking to hold on, again and again, not willing to, by right deeds, seeing things by oneself and abound the lower fetters, gaining firm confidence, bond toward the deathless by it.

[Sushan]

Thank you for introducing a Buddhist perspective (again ) into this dialogue. Your mention of the Sublime Buddha and the distinction between societies heading downwardly and those still related to the Noble Ones provides a profound lens to approach the topic. The idea of detaching oneself from worldly desires to genuinely help others brings an essential dimension to our discussion on influences.

Your analogy about being in the mud and stepping on each other's heads for a short gain of air is striking. It vividly illustrates how, when overwhelmed by negative influences or short-term desires, individuals might act against their better judgement.

However, my original point stands: influences, be they positive or negative, offer opportunities for individuals to reflect, grow, and determine their path. The story I shared earlier demonstrates this. But I do understand and respect the view that only by transcending these influences can one genuinely help others and act as an island for many.

Your thoughts add depth to our discussion, emphasizing the need for discernment in the influences we allow into our lives. Would you say then that true freedom and ability to positively influence society come from such discernment and detachment?

Good Sushan,

as earlier told: Even if awakened (without defilements), it's up to the individuals, say, old merits in regard of broad influence. For example, there are times when no perfect Awakened, a Buddha, or his disciples, teachings, are present in the world. At such times such as "privat Buddhas" appear. Although not different in discernment and detachment, their have no real skill to teach the way to broader audience, have very less impact on many.

Again: same, similar habits (had no possibility to replay in current topic on it, by good hpuseholder) meet each other again and again. How one remembers/perceives, so does one think. Seldom to meet wise and even more seldom to recognize, remember, or gain faith, which is the root of change (not as usually thought 'knowing' => a logic, so simple, logics are mostly incapable to comprehend.)

Blessed therefore to do not resist under fools, living in areas of right view, gained habits which are pleasing to Noble Ones (eg. suggest that efforts there might bear fruits for good for another).

Thank you for further elaborating on the concept of awakened individuals and their potential influence on society. I appreciate the differentiation you've made between a "privat Buddha" and one with the capability to guide a larger audience. Your words remind us of the intricate tapestry of individual destinies and collective paths, intertwining with each other through time and space.

Your insight on "how one remembers/perceives, so does one think" touches upon the deeply interwoven nature of perception, memory, and thought, and how they shape our actions and reactions to influences. It is indeed a rarity to encounter wisdom in its pure form and an even greater rarity to recognize and cherish it when it is found.

Building upon this, I'm intrigued by the idea of "right view" and its significance in discerning and choosing the influences we let into our lives. I agree that it's crucial not to be swayed by misleading or harmful influences, especially in today's world, where the abundance of information can often lead to a scarcity of wisdom.

In essence, while influences are inevitable, our ability to discern, detach, and derive meaningful insights from them is paramount. And perhaps, it is in the judicious exercise of this ability that we can find our unique path to contributing positively to society.

Would you concur that the cultivation of discernment, built upon a foundation of right view, acts as a safeguard against negative influences while also serving as a compass guiding one towards beneficial and uplifting influences?

Good Sushan,

the 'problem' with 'discerment' and right view (at first place) is that right view is certain to be taken in faith (at least by just 'logic', concerning), at first place. People who have not yet seen that form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness aren't for sure, real... think all as real as they perceive.
'There are Giving, sacrifices' has to be taken in faith, as long not really seeing. 'There are related fruits from bad and good deeds'... 'Mother, father, those before... have goodness'... 'there is this world and the next'... 'there are spontaneously born being (Deities, non-human)... 'there are those who had rightly done and seen as it really does (Awakened)'... has to be taken in faith, at first place...

Again, if not in touch with sociaty, or in relation with those, of right view, a principal doctrine, it's hardly ever possible. Again, it's waste of time to think to be able to make water flowing upwardly, changing the straight course into huge disasters. All therefore required means for a better are totally disregarded. It should be easy to understand that wise leave first and fools are be nature left.

Again, especially if seeing a glimpse of the sublimity of this Dhamna, don't one waste his time to make 'compassion' one's excuse for open own work, to overcome the roots of all: craving and ignorance (not knowing).

Thank you for delving deeper into the nature of 'right view' and the importance of faith in cultivating discernment. Your explanation reveals the profound interconnectedness of faith, perception, and understanding in the pursuit of truth.

Your emphasis on the foundational role of faith, particularly before true discernment and understanding can be achieved, is thought-provoking. As you rightly point out, certain truths and understandings, especially foundational ones, might need to be taken on faith initially. This resonates with the idea that some profound truths are perhaps beyond immediate empirical evidence and require an internal alignment or resonance to be truly grasped.

Furthermore, your point about the potential pitfalls of misdirected compassion, especially when used as an excuse for personal shortcomings, is a significant reminder. It seems to underscore the importance of self-awareness and genuine self-improvement as prerequisites to making a meaningful and positive impact on the broader community.

Engaging with individuals who hold right views, as you've mentioned, indeed plays a pivotal role in our spiritual and philosophical journeys. Yet, the challenge lies in recognizing, seeking, and aligning with such enlightened beings or teachings, especially in a world filled with myriad influences.

Do you believe that every individual, regardless of their current circumstances or influences, possesses an innate potential to eventually come into alignment with right views, given the right conditions and guidance?

[Sushan]

It's intriguing to consider the concept that while parents and immediate environment provide a framework, it's ultimately an individual's choices and inclinations that mold their identity. The idea that our tendencies and predispositions are what bind us and dictate our relations is thought-provoking.

To build upon that thought, one might say that recognizing these predispositions can be the first step towards conscious self-improvement. Awareness of these tendencies and inclinations, whether they stem from family influences or personal choices, can enable an individual to navigate them more effectively.

Your mention of gratitude and not demand is essential too. Acknowledging and being grateful for the platform that parents or society might have provided doesn't necessitate being bound by their expectations or influences. An individual can choose to carve their path based on self-awareness and introspection, using the foundation laid down by parents and society as a stepping stone rather than a chain.

The essence, perhaps, is that while we might not choose where we begin, it's entirely within our realm to decide where we go. Would you agree that this awareness and the resultant choice hold the key to breaking free from detrimental influences?

Not sure if by "this awareness", seeing goodness, gratitude, obligation and by it the burden and suffering, bond by it, was meant by good householder Sushan. But yes, a person of ingratitude is incapable of and higher attainments, incapable of and real grow, not to speak of highest re-lease.

Again, right view (gratitude) is the base even for good wandering on in the sensual world, not to speak of higher and beyond.

Being aware of the huge goodness receiving on and on, speak the mass of debt, the mass of suffering, seek for ways out, yet it's seldom, very seldom, that the way might be getting known, based on the urgency of the situation.

So both, seeing burden, dependence and the huge mass of suffering, and the pointing toward the way out, are required. Very very less could figure the path out by themselves.

If not taught, one aware, full of compassion, if good and renounce, would head toward the Brahma-realms. Common religions sometimes, by their influence, can lead there (of which is temporary, and after having consumed all merits of, right back to the lowest stage, hell, ghosts, animal realms.) Like societies, saw 'West' cirrently still enjoy heavens, yet soon will find them in 'hell', once old merits are gone. A wheel...

I appreciate the clarification. Your mention of the cyclical nature of existence and the transient nature of merits is a somber reminder of the impermanence of all conditioned phenomena. The challenges of navigating samsara, compounded by the influences and predispositions one encounters, can indeed be daunting.

The scenario you've painted—of societies or individuals rising to celestial-like existences and then plummeting back into challenging realms—underscores the urgency of not merely accumulating merit but seeking true liberation. The precariousness of relying solely on accumulated merit, without striving for a deeper understanding and release, is evident.

The mention of the Brahma-realms as a temporary refuge, followed by the potential fall back into lower realms, brings to mind the impermanence of even the most refined states of existence. It's a potent reminder that even in the highest of heavens, the seeds of decline can be present.

Your insights point to the importance of not just recognizing the suffering inherent in cyclic existence but actively seeking the path out. In your view, what are the most crucial practices or principles for one navigating this journey, especially in the context of influences and society?

Leave it, good householder: that one makes one's house, prision, Sisyphus-stupidy.

And as for the possible 'Führer' aspiration or hope for: once Mara thought to be able to convince the Sublime Buddha, that, because so perfect, why then not doing the role of a righteous World-leader... Knowing how individual kamma and effect works, knowing that beings are heir of their actions, the Buddha had no hard to totally reject the idea. Enough burdensome to lead his disciples who had been willing at least, to leave house and stand outwardly first. So he, out of compassion, did 'just' teach on occasion, sacrificing possibilities on stony fields, while focusing there most, where the most prosperity can be expected.

Appreciation for good householders attentive attitude and capability to follow not only strange speech and words, but also meaning behind, yet why still seeking a burdensome anchor in something subject to decay, never under one's control, a burden? To seek honest for the reason for that tendency would bring good householder toward the source of 'just selfish motivated' waste of time, would let him/her see that actually no idea of that his object is, not even tracing heartwood of control of himself, not even him/herself under firm control.

Mindless, not knowing what's going on within one self, not aware of on'es body, feelings, mind quality, truth, being jump from one object to another, maintain it, not aware of the suffering and constant decay. Not seeing suffering, no way that one would even seek, desire, a way out. May one just spend a minute, a second, and observe how it really does.

Enough now. What's the benefit of redundancy by seeking to hold on, again and again, not willing to, by right deeds, seeing things by oneself and abound the lower fetters, gaining firm confidence, bond toward the deathless by it.

Thank you for your eloquent response. Your emphasis on the inner journey, self-awareness, and the impermanent nature of the outer world resonates deeply. There's profound wisdom in the idea that we must move away from constantly seeking external validation, accomplishments, or even mere accumulations of merits, and instead focus on understanding the nature of our existence and our inherent tendencies. The story of Mara's attempt to lure the Buddha into worldly leadership underscores this very idea: true leadership, in a spiritual sense, is not about control or dominion but guiding others towards understanding and liberation.

Your reminder to look inwards, to be mindful, and to understand the ephemeral nature of our existence, including our attachments, feelings, and perceptions, is a stark one. It draws attention to the necessity of understanding suffering, its causes, and working towards its cessation, rather than being caught in endless cycles of desire and aversion.

Your emphasis on not getting lost in redundant pursuits and seeking true insight aligns with the importance of discernment. True, the external influences of society can often distract us, but as our discussion emphasizes, it's the inner awareness and understanding that can free us from these repetitive cycles.

In the context of our discussion about influences and society, it brings us back to the essence of the topic. While influences are manifold, and society's pressures never-ending, one's true journey is inward. It's about understanding oneself, the nature of existence, and making conscious choices to seek true freedom. This is not a rejection of society or its influences but a deeper understanding of its transient nature and our place within it.

Would it be apt to say that the most profound influence one can cultivate is the influence over one's mind and understanding, leading towards a path of genuine liberation?

[Samana Johann]

Good Sushan,

as earlier told: Even if awakened (without defilements), it's up to the individuals, say, old merits in regard of broad influence. For example, there are times when no perfect Awakened, a Buddha, or his disciples, teachings, are present in the world. At such times such as "privat Buddhas" appear. Although not different in discernment and detachment, their have no real skill to teach the way to broader audience, have very less impact on many.

Again: same, similar habits (had no possibility to replay in current topic on it, by good hpuseholder) meet each other again and again. How one remembers/perceives, so does one think. Seldom to meet wise and even more seldom to recognize, remember, or gain faith, which is the root of change (not as usually thought 'knowing' => a logic, so simple, logics are mostly incapable to comprehend.)

Blessed therefore to do not resist under fools, living in areas of right view, gained habits which are pleasing to Noble Ones (eg. suggest that efforts there might bear fruits for good for another).

Thank you for further elaborating on the concept of awakened individuals and their potential influence on society. I appreciate the differentiation you've made between a "privat Buddha" and one with the capability to guide a larger audience. Your words remind us of the intricate tapestry of individual destinies and collective paths, intertwining with each other through time and space.

Your insight on "how one remembers/perceives, so does one think" touches upon the deeply interwoven nature of perception, memory, and thought, and how they shape our actions and reactions to influences. It is indeed a rarity to encounter wisdom in its pure form and an even greater rarity to recognize and cherish it when it is found.

Building upon this, I'm intrigued by the idea of "right view" and its significance in discerning and choosing the influences we let into our lives. I agree that it's crucial not to be swayed by misleading or harmful influences, especially in today's world, where the abundance of information can often lead to a scarcity of wisdom.

In essence, while influences are inevitable, our ability to discern, detach, and derive meaningful insights from them is paramount. And perhaps, it is in the judicious exercise of this ability that we can find our unique path to contributing positively to society.

Would you concur that the cultivation of discernment, built upon a foundation of right view, acts as a safeguard against negative influences while also serving as a compass guiding one towards beneficial and uplifting influences?

Good Sushan,

the 'problem' with 'discerment' and right view (at first place) is that right view is certain to be taken in faith (at least by just 'logic', concerning), at first place. People who have not yet seen that form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness aren't for sure, real... think all as real as they perceive.
'There are Giving, sacrifices' has to be taken in faith, as long not really seeing. 'There are related fruits from bad and good deeds'... 'Mother, father, those before... have goodness'... 'there is this world and the next'... 'there are spontaneously born being (Deities, non-human)... 'there are those who had rightly done and seen as it really does (Awakened)'... has to be taken in faith, at first place...

Again, if not in touch with sociaty, or in relation with those, of right view, a principal doctrine, it's hardly ever possible. Again, it's waste of time to think to be able to make water flowing upwardly, changing the straight course into huge disasters. All therefore required means for a better are totally disregarded. It should be easy to understand that wise leave first and fools are be nature left.

Again, especially if seeing a glimpse of the sublimity of this Dhamna, don't one waste his time to make 'compassion' one's excuse for open own work, to overcome the roots of all: craving and ignorance (not knowing).

Thank you for delving deeper into the nature of 'right view' and the importance of faith in cultivating discernment. Your explanation reveals the profound interconnectedness of faith, perception, and understanding in the pursuit of truth.

Your emphasis on the foundational role of faith, particularly before true discernment and understanding can be achieved, is thought-provoking. As you rightly point out, certain truths and understandings, especially foundational ones, might need to be taken on faith initially. This resonates with the idea that some profound truths are perhaps beyond immediate empirical evidence and require an internal alignment or resonance to be truly grasped.

Furthermore, your point about the potential pitfalls of misdirected compassion, especially when used as an excuse for personal shortcomings, is a significant reminder. It seems to underscore the importance of self-awareness and genuine self-improvement as prerequisites to making a meaningful and positive impact on the broader community.

Engaging with individuals who hold right views, as you've mentioned, indeed plays a pivotal role in our spiritual and philosophical journeys. Yet, the challenge lies in recognizing, seeking, and aligning with such enlightened beings or teachings, especially in a world filled with myriad influences.

Do you believe that every individual, regardless of their current circumstances or influences, possesses an innate potential to eventually come into alignment with right views, given the right conditions and guidance?

There is no such as innate, good householder, aside of ignorance for those not knowing the Dhamma, and firm faith for those knowing, heading both in different ways.

... “And, Master Gotama, when having directly known it, you teach the Dhamma to your disciples for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?”

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda: “Don't let Uttiya the wanderer acquire the evil viewpoint that, 'When I asked him an all-encompassing question, Gotama the contemplative faltered and didn't reply. Perhaps he was unable to.' That would be for his long-term harm & suffering.” So he said to Uttiya, “In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

”Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

“In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established(1) their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way.(2) That's why he didn't respond.”

Not sure if by "this awareness", seeing goodness, gratitude, obligation and by it the burden and suffering, bond by it, was meant by good householder Sushan. But yes, a person of ingratitude is incapable of and higher attainments, incapable of and real grow, not to speak of highest re-lease.

Again, right view (gratitude) is the base even for good wandering on in the sensual world, not to speak of higher and beyond.

Being aware of the huge goodness receiving on and on, speak the mass of debt, the mass of suffering, seek for ways out, yet it's seldom, very seldom, that the way might be getting known, based on the urgency of the situation.

So both, seeing burden, dependence and the huge mass of suffering, and the pointing toward the way out, are required. Very very less could figure the path out by themselves.

If not taught, one aware, full of compassion, if good and renounce, would head toward the Brahma-realms. Common religions sometimes, by their influence, can lead there (of which is temporary, and after having consumed all merits of, right back to the lowest stage, hell, ghosts, animal realms.) Like societies, saw 'West' cirrently still enjoy heavens, yet soon will find them in 'hell', once old merits are gone. A wheel...

I appreciate the clarification. Your mention of the cyclical nature of existence and the transient nature of merits is a somber reminder of the impermanence of all conditioned phenomena. The challenges of navigating samsara, compounded by the influences and predispositions one encounters, can indeed be daunting.

The scenario you've painted—of societies or individuals rising to celestial-like existences and then plummeting back into challenging realms—underscores the urgency of not merely accumulating merit but seeking true liberation. The precariousness of relying solely on accumulated merit, without striving for a deeper understanding and release, is evident.

The mention of the Brahma-realms as a temporary refuge, followed by the potential fall back into lower realms, brings to mind the impermanence of even the most refined states of existence. It's a potent reminder that even in the highest of heavens, the seeds of decline can be present.

Your insights point to the importance of not just recognizing the suffering inherent in cyclic existence but actively seeking the path out. In your view, what are the most crucial practices or principles for one navigating this journey, especially in the context of influences and society?

Leave it, good householder: that one makes one's house, prision, Sisyphus-stupidy.

And as for the possible 'Führer' aspiration or hope for: once Mara thought to be able to convince the Sublime Buddha, that, because so perfect, why then not doing the role of a righteous World-leader... Knowing how individual kamma and effect works, knowing that beings are heir of their actions, the Buddha had no hard to totally reject the idea. Enough burdensome to lead his disciples who had been willing at least, to leave house and stand outwardly first. So he, out of compassion, did 'just' teach on occasion, sacrificing possibilities on stony fields, while focusing there most, where the most prosperity can be expected.

Appreciation for good householders attentive attitude and capability to follow not only strange speech and words, but also meaning behind, yet why still seeking a burdensome anchor in something subject to decay, never under one's control, a burden? To seek honest for the reason for that tendency would bring good householder toward the source of 'just selfish motivated' waste of time, would let him/her see that actually no idea of that his object is, not even tracing heartwood of control of himself, not even him/herself under firm control.

Mindless, not knowing what's going on within one self, not aware of on'es body, feelings, mind quality, truth, being jump from one object to another, maintain it, not aware of the suffering and constant decay. Not seeing suffering, no way that one would even seek, desire, a way out. May one just spend a minute, a second, and observe how it really does.

Enough now. What's the benefit of redundancy by seeking to hold on, again and again, not willing to, by right deeds, seeing things by oneself and abound the lower fetters, gaining firm confidence, bond toward the deathless by it.

Thank you for your eloquent response. Your emphasis on the inner journey, self-awareness, and the impermanent nature of the outer world resonates deeply. There's profound wisdom in the idea that we must move away from constantly seeking external validation, accomplishments, or even mere accumulations of merits, and instead focus on understanding the nature of our existence and our inherent tendencies. The story of Mara's attempt to lure the Buddha into worldly leadership underscores this very idea: true leadership, in a spiritual sense, is not about control or dominion but guiding others towards understanding and liberation.

Your reminder to look inwards, to be mindful, and to understand the ephemeral nature of our existence, including our attachments, feelings, and perceptions, is a stark one. It draws attention to the necessity of understanding suffering, its causes, and working towards its cessation, rather than being caught in endless cycles of desire and aversion.

Your emphasis on not getting lost in redundant pursuits and seeking true insight aligns with the importance of discernment. True, the external influences of society can often distract us, but as our discussion emphasizes, it's the inner awareness and understanding that can free us from these repetitive cycles.

In the context of our discussion about influences and society, it brings us back to the essence of the topic. While influences are manifold, and society's pressures never-ending, one's true journey is inward. It's about understanding oneself, the nature of existence, and making conscious choices to seek true freedom. This is not a rejection of society or its influences but a deeper understanding of its transient nature and our place within it.

Would it be apt to say that the most profound influence one can cultivate is the influence over one's mind and understanding, leading towards a path of genuine liberation?

Once one knows him/herself right, that's then already toward genuine liberation yes.

Satipatthana.

much succes good Sushan.

[Sushan]

Thank you for further elaborating on the concept of awakened individuals and their potential influence on society. I appreciate the differentiation you've made between a "privat Buddha" and one with the capability to guide a larger audience. Your words remind us of the intricate tapestry of individual destinies and collective paths, intertwining with each other through time and space.

Your insight on "how one remembers/perceives, so does one think" touches upon the deeply interwoven nature of perception, memory, and thought, and how they shape our actions and reactions to influences. It is indeed a rarity to encounter wisdom in its pure form and an even greater rarity to recognize and cherish it when it is found.

Building upon this, I'm intrigued by the idea of "right view" and its significance in discerning and choosing the influences we let into our lives. I agree that it's crucial not to be swayed by misleading or harmful influences, especially in today's world, where the abundance of information can often lead to a scarcity of wisdom.

In essence, while influences are inevitable, our ability to discern, detach, and derive meaningful insights from them is paramount. And perhaps, it is in the judicious exercise of this ability that we can find our unique path to contributing positively to society.

Would you concur that the cultivation of discernment, built upon a foundation of right view, acts as a safeguard against negative influences while also serving as a compass guiding one towards beneficial and uplifting influences?

Good Sushan,

the 'problem' with 'discerment' and right view (at first place) is that right view is certain to be taken in faith (at least by just 'logic', concerning), at first place. People who have not yet seen that form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness aren't for sure, real... think all as real as they perceive.
'There are Giving, sacrifices' has to be taken in faith, as long not really seeing. 'There are related fruits from bad and good deeds'... 'Mother, father, those before... have goodness'... 'there is this world and the next'... 'there are spontaneously born being (Deities, non-human)... 'there are those who had rightly done and seen as it really does (Awakened)'... has to be taken in faith, at first place...

Again, if not in touch with sociaty, or in relation with those, of right view, a principal doctrine, it's hardly ever possible. Again, it's waste of time to think to be able to make water flowing upwardly, changing the straight course into huge disasters. All therefore required means for a better are totally disregarded. It should be easy to understand that wise leave first and fools are be nature left.

Again, especially if seeing a glimpse of the sublimity of this Dhamna, don't one waste his time to make 'compassion' one's excuse for open own work, to overcome the roots of all: craving and ignorance (not knowing).

Thank you for delving deeper into the nature of 'right view' and the importance of faith in cultivating discernment. Your explanation reveals the profound interconnectedness of faith, perception, and understanding in the pursuit of truth.

Your emphasis on the foundational role of faith, particularly before true discernment and understanding can be achieved, is thought-provoking. As you rightly point out, certain truths and understandings, especially foundational ones, might need to be taken on faith initially. This resonates with the idea that some profound truths are perhaps beyond immediate empirical evidence and require an internal alignment or resonance to be truly grasped.

Furthermore, your point about the potential pitfalls of misdirected compassion, especially when used as an excuse for personal shortcomings, is a significant reminder. It seems to underscore the importance of self-awareness and genuine self-improvement as prerequisites to making a meaningful and positive impact on the broader community.

Engaging with individuals who hold right views, as you've mentioned, indeed plays a pivotal role in our spiritual and philosophical journeys. Yet, the challenge lies in recognizing, seeking, and aligning with such enlightened beings or teachings, especially in a world filled with myriad influences.

Do you believe that every individual, regardless of their current circumstances or influences, possesses an innate potential to eventually come into alignment with right views, given the right conditions and guidance?

There is no such as innate, good householder, aside of ignorance for those not knowing the Dhamma, and firm faith for those knowing, heading both in different ways.

... “And, Master Gotama, when having directly known it, you teach the Dhamma to your disciples for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?”

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda: “Don't let Uttiya the wanderer acquire the evil viewpoint that, 'When I asked him an all-encompassing question, Gotama the contemplative faltered and didn't reply. Perhaps he was unable to.' That would be for his long-term harm & suffering.” So he said to Uttiya, “In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

”Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

“In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established(1) their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way.(2) That's why he didn't respond.”

I appreciate the clarification. Your mention of the cyclical nature of existence and the transient nature of merits is a somber reminder of the impermanence of all conditioned phenomena. The challenges of navigating samsara, compounded by the influences and predispositions one encounters, can indeed be daunting.

The scenario you've painted—of societies or individuals rising to celestial-like existences and then plummeting back into challenging realms—underscores the urgency of not merely accumulating merit but seeking true liberation. The precariousness of relying solely on accumulated merit, without striving for a deeper understanding and release, is evident.

The mention of the Brahma-realms as a temporary refuge, followed by the potential fall back into lower realms, brings to mind the impermanence of even the most refined states of existence. It's a potent reminder that even in the highest of heavens, the seeds of decline can be present.

Your insights point to the importance of not just recognizing the suffering inherent in cyclic existence but actively seeking the path out. In your view, what are the most crucial practices or principles for one navigating this journey, especially in the context of influences and society?

Leave it, good householder: that one makes one's house, prision, Sisyphus-stupidy.

And as for the possible 'Führer' aspiration or hope for: once Mara thought to be able to convince the Sublime Buddha, that, because so perfect, why then not doing the role of a righteous World-leader... Knowing how individual kamma and effect works, knowing that beings are heir of their actions, the Buddha had no hard to totally reject the idea. Enough burdensome to lead his disciples who had been willing at least, to leave house and stand outwardly first. So he, out of compassion, did 'just' teach on occasion, sacrificing possibilities on stony fields, while focusing there most, where the most prosperity can be expected.

Appreciation for good householders attentive attitude and capability to follow not only strange speech and words, but also meaning behind, yet why still seeking a burdensome anchor in something subject to decay, never under one's control, a burden? To seek honest for the reason for that tendency would bring good householder toward the source of 'just selfish motivated' waste of time, would let him/her see that actually no idea of that his object is, not even tracing heartwood of control of himself, not even him/herself under firm control.

Mindless, not knowing what's going on within one self, not aware of on'es body, feelings, mind quality, truth, being jump from one object to another, maintain it, not aware of the suffering and constant decay. Not seeing suffering, no way that one would even seek, desire, a way out. May one just spend a minute, a second, and observe how it really does.

Enough now. What's the benefit of redundancy by seeking to hold on, again and again, not willing to, by right deeds, seeing things by oneself and abound the lower fetters, gaining firm confidence, bond toward the deathless by it.

Thank you for your eloquent response. Your emphasis on the inner journey, self-awareness, and the impermanent nature of the outer world resonates deeply. There's profound wisdom in the idea that we must move away from constantly seeking external validation, accomplishments, or even mere accumulations of merits, and instead focus on understanding the nature of our existence and our inherent tendencies. The story of Mara's attempt to lure the Buddha into worldly leadership underscores this very idea: true leadership, in a spiritual sense, is not about control or dominion but guiding others towards understanding and liberation.

Your reminder to look inwards, to be mindful, and to understand the ephemeral nature of our existence, including our attachments, feelings, and perceptions, is a stark one. It draws attention to the necessity of understanding suffering, its causes, and working towards its cessation, rather than being caught in endless cycles of desire and aversion.

Your emphasis on not getting lost in redundant pursuits and seeking true insight aligns with the importance of discernment. True, the external influences of society can often distract us, but as our discussion emphasizes, it's the inner awareness and understanding that can free us from these repetitive cycles.

In the context of our discussion about influences and society, it brings us back to the essence of the topic. While influences are manifold, and society's pressures never-ending, one's true journey is inward. It's about understanding oneself, the nature of existence, and making conscious choices to seek true freedom. This is not a rejection of society or its influences but a deeper understanding of its transient nature and our place within it.

Would it be apt to say that the most profound influence one can cultivate is the influence over one's mind and understanding, leading towards a path of genuine liberation?

Once one knows him/herself right, that's then already toward genuine liberation yes.

Satipatthana.

much succes good Sushan.

Thank you for sharing that insightful Sutta from the Tipitaka. The analogy of the gatekeeper illustrates the profound understanding that while the exact numbers and specifics aren't always the central concern, the method and the path certainly are.

The essence of the teaching, as I gather, is that while the Tathagata (the Buddha) may not promise universal enlightenment, he provides the precise method by which it can be achieved — by abandoning the five hindrances and cultivating practices like Satipatthana (the establishment of mindfulness).

This perspective brings clarity to our conversation on influences and discernment. It reminds us that while countless influences and paths exist in the world, the gate to genuine understanding and liberation remains singular and specific.

It's comforting, in a way, to understand that while the myriad of influences may sometimes be overwhelming, there exists a steadfast method, a clear path, leading towards genuine understanding and liberation. This goes back to our earlier discussion on discernment. Just as the gatekeeper knows the single gate, a wise individual, by cultivating right view and discernment, can navigate the maze of influences and choose the path leading to genuine understanding.

In this journey, as the Sutta you shared suggests, the abandonment of hindrances and the cultivation of mindfulness and understanding are paramount.

In conclusion, while the world around us may present countless influences, both beneficial and harmful, the core teachings remain a beacon of light, guiding us towards understanding and liberation. Your insights and the teachings you've shared have enriched this discussion immensely.

May this exchange lead us, and those who partake in it, a step closer to wisdom and understanding. Your thoughts and guidance are much appreciated. Would you have any further recommendations or practices to share, which can aid in cultivating the discernment we've discussed?

[Samana Johann]

Good Sushan,

the 'problem' with 'discerment' and right view (at first place) is that right view is certain to be taken in faith (at least by just 'logic', concerning), at first place. People who have not yet seen that form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness aren't for sure, real... think all as real as they perceive.
'There are Giving, sacrifices' has to be taken in faith, as long not really seeing. 'There are related fruits from bad and good deeds'... 'Mother, father, those before... have goodness'... 'there is this world and the next'... 'there are spontaneously born being (Deities, non-human)... 'there are those who had rightly done and seen as it really does (Awakened)'... has to be taken in faith, at first place...

Again, if not in touch with sociaty, or in relation with those, of right view, a principal doctrine, it's hardly ever possible. Again, it's waste of time to think to be able to make water flowing upwardly, changing the straight course into huge disasters. All therefore required means for a better are totally disregarded. It should be easy to understand that wise leave first and fools are be nature left.

Again, especially if seeing a glimpse of the sublimity of this Dhamna, don't one waste his time to make 'compassion' one's excuse for open own work, to overcome the roots of all: craving and ignorance (not knowing).

Thank you for delving deeper into the nature of 'right view' and the importance of faith in cultivating discernment. Your explanation reveals the profound interconnectedness of faith, perception, and understanding in the pursuit of truth.

Your emphasis on the foundational role of faith, particularly before true discernment and understanding can be achieved, is thought-provoking. As you rightly point out, certain truths and understandings, especially foundational ones, might need to be taken on faith initially. This resonates with the idea that some profound truths are perhaps beyond immediate empirical evidence and require an internal alignment or resonance to be truly grasped.

Furthermore, your point about the potential pitfalls of misdirected compassion, especially when used as an excuse for personal shortcomings, is a significant reminder. It seems to underscore the importance of self-awareness and genuine self-improvement as prerequisites to making a meaningful and positive impact on the broader community.

Engaging with individuals who hold right views, as you've mentioned, indeed plays a pivotal role in our spiritual and philosophical journeys. Yet, the challenge lies in recognizing, seeking, and aligning with such enlightened beings or teachings, especially in a world filled with myriad influences.

Do you believe that every individual, regardless of their current circumstances or influences, possesses an innate potential to eventually come into alignment with right views, given the right conditions and guidance?

There is no such as innate, good householder, aside of ignorance for those not knowing the Dhamma, and firm faith for those knowing, heading both in different ways.

... “And, Master Gotama, when having directly known it, you teach the Dhamma to your disciples for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?”

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda: “Don't let Uttiya the wanderer acquire the evil viewpoint that, 'When I asked him an all-encompassing question, Gotama the contemplative faltered and didn't reply. Perhaps he was unable to.' That would be for his long-term harm & suffering.” So he said to Uttiya, “In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

”Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

“In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established(1) their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way.(2) That's why he didn't respond.”

Leave it, good householder: that one makes one's house, prision, Sisyphus-stupidy.

And as for the possible 'Führer' aspiration or hope for: once Mara thought to be able to convince the Sublime Buddha, that, because so perfect, why then not doing the role of a righteous World-leader... Knowing how individual kamma and effect works, knowing that beings are heir of their actions, the Buddha had no hard to totally reject the idea. Enough burdensome to lead his disciples who had been willing at least, to leave house and stand outwardly first. So he, out of compassion, did 'just' teach on occasion, sacrificing possibilities on stony fields, while focusing there most, where the most prosperity can be expected.

Appreciation for good householders attentive attitude and capability to follow not only strange speech and words, but also meaning behind, yet why still seeking a burdensome anchor in something subject to decay, never under one's control, a burden? To seek honest for the reason for that tendency would bring good householder toward the source of 'just selfish motivated' waste of time, would let him/her see that actually no idea of that his object is, not even tracing heartwood of control of himself, not even him/herself under firm control.

Mindless, not knowing what's going on within one self, not aware of on'es body, feelings, mind quality, truth, being jump from one object to another, maintain it, not aware of the suffering and constant decay. Not seeing suffering, no way that one would even seek, desire, a way out. May one just spend a minute, a second, and observe how it really does.

Enough now. What's the benefit of redundancy by seeking to hold on, again and again, not willing to, by right deeds, seeing things by oneself and abound the lower fetters, gaining firm confidence, bond toward the deathless by it.

Thank you for your eloquent response. Your emphasis on the inner journey, self-awareness, and the impermanent nature of the outer world resonates deeply. There's profound wisdom in the idea that we must move away from constantly seeking external validation, accomplishments, or even mere accumulations of merits, and instead focus on understanding the nature of our existence and our inherent tendencies. The story of Mara's attempt to lure the Buddha into worldly leadership underscores this very idea: true leadership, in a spiritual sense, is not about control or dominion but guiding others towards understanding and liberation.

Your reminder to look inwards, to be mindful, and to understand the ephemeral nature of our existence, including our attachments, feelings, and perceptions, is a stark one. It draws attention to the necessity of understanding suffering, its causes, and working towards its cessation, rather than being caught in endless cycles of desire and aversion.

Your emphasis on not getting lost in redundant pursuits and seeking true insight aligns with the importance of discernment. True, the external influences of society can often distract us, but as our discussion emphasizes, it's the inner awareness and understanding that can free us from these repetitive cycles.

In the context of our discussion about influences and society, it brings us back to the essence of the topic. While influences are manifold, and society's pressures never-ending, one's true journey is inward. It's about understanding oneself, the nature of existence, and making conscious choices to seek true freedom. This is not a rejection of society or its influences but a deeper understanding of its transient nature and our place within it.

Would it be apt to say that the most profound influence one can cultivate is the influence over one's mind and understanding, leading towards a path of genuine liberation?

Once one knows him/herself right, that's then already toward genuine liberation yes.

Satipatthana.

much succes good Sushan.

Thank you for sharing that insightful Sutta from the Tipitaka. The analogy of the gatekeeper illustrates the profound understanding that while the exact numbers and specifics aren't always the central concern, the method and the path certainly are.

The essence of the teaching, as I gather, is that while the Tathagata (the Buddha) may not promise universal enlightenment, he provides the precise method by which it can be achieved — by abandoning the five hindrances and cultivating practices like Satipatthana (the establishment of mindfulness).

This perspective brings clarity to our conversation on influences and discernment. It reminds us that while countless influences and paths exist in the world, the gate to genuine understanding and liberation remains singular and specific.

It's comforting, in a way, to understand that while the myriad of influences may sometimes be overwhelming, there exists a steadfast method, a clear path, leading towards genuine understanding and liberation. This goes back to our earlier discussion on discernment. Just as the gatekeeper knows the single gate, a wise individual, by cultivating right view and discernment, can navigate the maze of influences and choose the path leading to genuine understanding.

In this journey, as the Sutta you shared suggests, the abandonment of hindrances and the cultivation of mindfulness and understanding are paramount.

In conclusion, while the world around us may present countless influences, both beneficial and harmful, the core teachings remain a beacon of light, guiding us towards understanding and liberation.

Those teachings are fast on disappearing, good Sushan, not at all for sure generally, not to speak of how raw met individually, not stupid or in bad condition yet.

In this light:

Your insights and the teachings you've shared have enriched this discussion immensely.

May this exchange lead us, and those who partake in it, a step closer to wisdom and understanding.

Sadhu. Wishing well, metta, and sharing own merits, recognizing goodness as such, is not common. (on the 'trust' that it's all not just very skilled entertaining rethoricially)

Your thoughts and guidance are much appreciated. Would you have any further recommendations or practices to share, which can aid in cultivating the discernment we've discussed?

Hurry up, goid householder, to put all into deeds to gain a firm path, only less ever see and gain. Old-age, sickness and death, decay, are for sure, the gain of way out, not, and special.

Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.

[Sushan]

Thank you for delving deeper into the nature of 'right view' and the importance of faith in cultivating discernment. Your explanation reveals the profound interconnectedness of faith, perception, and understanding in the pursuit of truth.

Your emphasis on the foundational role of faith, particularly before true discernment and understanding can be achieved, is thought-provoking. As you rightly point out, certain truths and understandings, especially foundational ones, might need to be taken on faith initially. This resonates with the idea that some profound truths are perhaps beyond immediate empirical evidence and require an internal alignment or resonance to be truly grasped.

Furthermore, your point about the potential pitfalls of misdirected compassion, especially when used as an excuse for personal shortcomings, is a significant reminder. It seems to underscore the importance of self-awareness and genuine self-improvement as prerequisites to making a meaningful and positive impact on the broader community.

Engaging with individuals who hold right views, as you've mentioned, indeed plays a pivotal role in our spiritual and philosophical journeys. Yet, the challenge lies in recognizing, seeking, and aligning with such enlightened beings or teachings, especially in a world filled with myriad influences.

Do you believe that every individual, regardless of their current circumstances or influences, possesses an innate potential to eventually come into alignment with right views, given the right conditions and guidance?

There is no such as innate, good householder, aside of ignorance for those not knowing the Dhamma, and firm faith for those knowing, heading both in different ways.

... “And, Master Gotama, when having directly known it, you teach the Dhamma to your disciples for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?”

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda: “Don't let Uttiya the wanderer acquire the evil viewpoint that, 'When I asked him an all-encompassing question, Gotama the contemplative faltered and didn't reply. Perhaps he was unable to.' That would be for his long-term harm & suffering.” So he said to Uttiya, “In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

”Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

“In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established(1) their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way.(2) That's why he didn't respond.”

Thank you for your eloquent response. Your emphasis on the inner journey, self-awareness, and the impermanent nature of the outer world resonates deeply. There's profound wisdom in the idea that we must move away from constantly seeking external validation, accomplishments, or even mere accumulations of merits, and instead focus on understanding the nature of our existence and our inherent tendencies. The story of Mara's attempt to lure the Buddha into worldly leadership underscores this very idea: true leadership, in a spiritual sense, is not about control or dominion but guiding others towards understanding and liberation.

Your reminder to look inwards, to be mindful, and to understand the ephemeral nature of our existence, including our attachments, feelings, and perceptions, is a stark one. It draws attention to the necessity of understanding suffering, its causes, and working towards its cessation, rather than being caught in endless cycles of desire and aversion.

Your emphasis on not getting lost in redundant pursuits and seeking true insight aligns with the importance of discernment. True, the external influences of society can often distract us, but as our discussion emphasizes, it's the inner awareness and understanding that can free us from these repetitive cycles.

In the context of our discussion about influences and society, it brings us back to the essence of the topic. While influences are manifold, and society's pressures never-ending, one's true journey is inward. It's about understanding oneself, the nature of existence, and making conscious choices to seek true freedom. This is not a rejection of society or its influences but a deeper understanding of its transient nature and our place within it.

Would it be apt to say that the most profound influence one can cultivate is the influence over one's mind and understanding, leading towards a path of genuine liberation?

Once one knows him/herself right, that's then already toward genuine liberation yes.

Satipatthana.

much succes good Sushan.

Thank you for sharing that insightful Sutta from the Tipitaka. The analogy of the gatekeeper illustrates the profound understanding that while the exact numbers and specifics aren't always the central concern, the method and the path certainly are.

The essence of the teaching, as I gather, is that while the Tathagata (the Buddha) may not promise universal enlightenment, he provides the precise method by which it can be achieved — by abandoning the five hindrances and cultivating practices like Satipatthana (the establishment of mindfulness).

This perspective brings clarity to our conversation on influences and discernment. It reminds us that while countless influences and paths exist in the world, the gate to genuine understanding and liberation remains singular and specific.

It's comforting, in a way, to understand that while the myriad of influences may sometimes be overwhelming, there exists a steadfast method, a clear path, leading towards genuine understanding and liberation. This goes back to our earlier discussion on discernment. Just as the gatekeeper knows the single gate, a wise individual, by cultivating right view and discernment, can navigate the maze of influences and choose the path leading to genuine understanding.

In this journey, as the Sutta you shared suggests, the abandonment of hindrances and the cultivation of mindfulness and understanding are paramount.

In conclusion, while the world around us may present countless influences, both beneficial and harmful, the core teachings remain a beacon of light, guiding us towards understanding and liberation.

Those teachings are fast on disappearing, good Sushan, not at all for sure generally, not to speak of how raw met individually, not stupid or in bad condition yet.

In this light:

Your insights and the teachings you've shared have enriched this discussion immensely.

May this exchange lead us, and those who partake in it, a step closer to wisdom and understanding.

Sadhu. Wishing well, metta, and sharing own merits, recognizing goodness as such, is not common. (on the 'trust' that it's all not just very skilled entertaining rethoricially)

Your thoughts and guidance are much appreciated. Would you have any further recommendations or practices to share, which can aid in cultivating the discernment we've discussed?

Hurry up, goid householder, to put all into deeds to gain a firm path, only less ever see and gain. Old-age, sickness and death, decay, are for sure, the gain of way out, not, and special.

Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.

Towards the path of true enlightenment. The onus remains on the individual to seek out these teachings, develop discernment, and diligently practice the methods outlined by the Tathagata. Only through such dedicated effort can one transcend the binding influences of the world and achieve a state of genuine liberation.

Your insights have been invaluable in deepening my understanding of the relationship between external influences and the internal journey towards enlightenment. I'm grateful for this enriching discussion. I wonder, as we move forward in our lives, how can we ensure that we remain steadfast in our pursuit of right view and discernment amidst the constantly changing landscape of influences?

I look forward to your thoughts on this, and once again, thank you for sharing your wisdom.