Philosophy Discussion Forums

Ormond wrote:

Belinda wrote:....and was a clear example that recreational drugs are taken for pleasure, not for lack of God in their lives.

Ormond wrote:

The God concept does seem to work for many, but obviously not for all. For those allergic to the God concept the rational act is not to waste a lot of time rebelling against what isn't working, but to set the God concept aside and replace it with a secular explanation which works for that person. A translation from religious to secular language is now offered....

The human condition is defined by what we're made of psychologically, thought, an electro-chemical information medium which operates by a process of division. Our minds take in data from the Single Unified Reality (sometimes called God) and then break that data stream in to separate conceptual objects. The noun is the simplest example. This process of division gives humans vast powers, because it allows us to manipulate reality virtually. We can rearrange the conceptual objects in our mind, and thus imagine ways in which the real world might be manipulated. So far so good, but...

I think "the Single Unified Reality" is what the hippies used to call "The Universe" as in "Child of the Universe" to the effect that when you felt that you were a child of the universe you would be happy and healthy. I understand that some more enlightened therapists for children, and criminologists, send clients to dangerously exhilarating sports such as mountain climbing or as Ormond suggests, surfing(see below). Expensive, I'm afraid. Prisoners caring for unruly stray dogs seems to take the criminals away from their preoccupation with their egos.

Ormond wrote:

This process of conceptual division is also the source of human suffering, as it creates the illusion that we are divided from reality. "Me" is seen to be very small, and "everything else" is seen to be very big, a perspective which creates a profound existential fear which is the cause of most personal and social human problems.

I understand what you are saying about the pain of alienation from "the Single Unified Reality". It seems clear enough that peak experiences, and mystical experiences such as those of Julian of Norwich , are of the same or similar quality as those experiences of literal ecstasy that accompany immediate physical danger .

This existential fear is not always visible as we typically bury it under a mountain of distractions to hide it from ourselves. Remove the distractions by say, solitary confinement, and the existential fear will reappear. This is why solitary confinement can be used as a punishment.

Pleasure is defined by an experience of escape from the tiny prison cell of "me". That is, it's a psychological reunion with reality. My favorite example is surfing, for when you are flying down a wall of water there is no room left in your brain for "me". There is only now, only the single unified realty. And it feels GREAT! Sex is obviously an even easier example. The whole point of sex is to progress towards that moment when the "me", the conceptual division from reality, will be obliterated and unity with reality is restored.

I don't quite know if Ormond is saying that pleasure is entirely defined by an experience of escape from the tiny prison cell of "me". Or if he is saying that this is one of several definitions of pleasure. No matter, that definition of pleasure is sufficient to make the point that pleasure is the motivation for taking recreational mind drugs. In the cases of bipolar people the aim of taking mind drugs is to even out the extremes of pleasure and depression.

For extreme of pleasure is hypomania and hypomania tends to be bad for maintaining life .By the same token I suggest that even healthy pleasures like surfing be taken in moderation because, in the interest of staying alive, for most of the time we need to be alienated from the Single Unified Reality, unless we are in the sheltered situation of monastery or convent, or like one of those holy hermits who are kept alive by others.



Ormond wrote:

People seek destructive pleasures because there is an extreme lack of unity with reality in their lives. Put another way, they aren't overdosing on booze and drugs etc, but on thought.

PaulNZ wrote: I think that choice to kill yourself, although irrational to us, is rational to the person making it at the time.

Ormond wrote:

Both healthy and unhealthy pleasures are an attempt to kill the "me". Healthy pleasures only destroy the "me" psychologically and temporarily, whereas unhealthy pleasures sometimes pose the risk of permanently destroying the physical infrastructure which supports the "me". People try to kill their bodies when attempts to kill the psychological "me" with pleasures stop working, and they become desperate and resort to more extreme options for restoring unity with reality.

In my highly speculative view, death is the ultimate reunion with reality which we all seek in the depth of our being. Just as there is a life force propelling us upwards, there is the gravity of a death force pulling us back down. Each of these forces is influencing us in every moment of our lives, just as a ball thrown up in the air is being pulled on by gravity even as it soars upwards.

Well, I have for quite some time believed that individuation into separated egos is what keeps people alive. Conatus.

Ormond wrote:

This is secular language which explains the process underway when people seek to "get back to God". The God concept personalizes reality in a manner that makes seeking reunion with reality more accessible to a great many people. Please note that this explanation makes no attempt to determine whether there is a God or not. It is instead simply about exploring the variety of cultural languages which are most suitable for various people. The underlying process is the same, however one might wish to describe it.

Discarding the God concept is useful for many if they then go on to address their fundamental human problems by other methods which are more suitable for them personally. This is a rational act.

I do hope that wordsmiths and other artists are already working on various ways explaining the Single Unified Reality, ways which are accessible to people who are unsophisticated. I also hope that physical experiences such as have already been mentioned plus many more are to be made available to everybody. Do some sorts of meditation provide access to the Single Unified Reality?

Ormond's analysis corroborates the accent on pleasure-seeking which I understand that PaulNZ is also concerned about. Also, Ormond's analysis links pleasure-seeking with alienation from the "Single Unified Reality". Before some self-styled atheist objects that there is no such thing as the Single Unified Reality I want to ask if it's credible that there is nothing 'out there' besides our minds.

I wish I had your certainty Ormand. I'll give your response some thought and respond after that. Thanks

I do hope that wordsmiths and other artists are already working on various ways explaining the Single Unified Reality, ways which are accessible to people who are unsophisticated.

Well yes, they've been doing just that for thousands of years. The most effective methods of discussing this have survived the test of time and are still with us today. That said, the most effective methods of explaining it are not the only methods, or the best ones for everybody. Adding to this, explanation itself is not such a powerful method, whatever the explanation may be.

I also hope that physical experiences such as have already been mentioned plus many more are to be made available to everybody.

Our brains escape the little prison cell of "me" quite naturally repeatedly throughout our everyday lives. The process is so normal and routine, and can happen so fast, that we may not even notice it. Someone enters the room behind you and you turn to look to see who it is, and in that moment of looking, "me" is gone. This is why we are drawn to all kinds of stimulation, not just booze and drugs.

Do some sorts of meditation provide access to the Single Unified Reality?

Well, there is nothing else to be but the Single Unified Reality. The word "access" implies a separation which doesn't exist in the real world.

Any kind of method which reduces the volume of thought can help relieve the illusion that we are separate, because thought is the source of the illusion. It doesn't have to be something formal like meditation. Fishing works well for many, as example. Or dancing. Surfing of course. Working in the garden. And that all time favorite sex can not be left unmentioned.

Meditation gets much of it's value from the simple fact that it is highly convenient, and available in pretty much any time and place, requires no equipment or expense etc.

Ormond's analysis corroborates the accent on pleasure-seeking which I understand that PaulNZ is also concerned about. Also, Ormond's analysis links pleasure-seeking with alienation from the "Single Unified Reality".

Yes, that's it, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what it is we all actually want.

Before some self-styled atheist objects that there is no such thing as the Single Unified Reality I want to ask if it's credible that there is nothing 'out there' besides our minds.

The Single Unified Reality is not some code word that tries to sneak religion in the back door. Experience of it is not made of thought, so it's not religious or secular, or any other thought generated category. It's just experience of reality.

What our bodies crave is real food, not descriptions of food or categories of food etc. It's the same with our minds. We crave real unity, not descriptions of unity, or theories of unity etc.

Descriptions are like the door on our refrigerator. The point of the door is to open it so you can get to the food. It would be silly to spend a lot time worrying about the door, when what we really want is the food. The point is simply to find a door that works for you, walk through it, and get the psychic food.

It's the simplest thing. What makes it seem complicated is our desire for complication.

"Lack of awareness of the basic unity of organism and environment is a serious and dangerous hallucination." - Alan Watts

Even worse, it's now a serious and dangerous mass hallucination....

People take mind altering drugs either to self medicate or escape, because they are unhappy with their reality as they perceive it, or they take them for recreation, for pleasure.

At the point that their addiction reaches a point where their life is in danger, but they choose to continue with the drug taking behaviour, they are at a point in their addiction journey that you might call a crisis point, for the purpose of our discussion as to when God can have power as a concept for these people.

I agree that there can be a gap between the expectation of reality and our actual reality and that this gap can cause unease and unhappiness in individuals. The reason for those feelings can be for a number of reasons including what Ormond described but also including our Western way of dealing with issues, alienation from social circles due to a breakdown in community or the gap between the promise of our modern version of capitalism against the reality of its fruits being for the select few. That feeling is a can of worms in other words, but the point that God can be useful to those at their wits end with nothing to lose still remains a more healthy solution for some than the alternative of death.

Felix wrote:"Lack of awareness of the basic unity of organism and environment is a serious and dangerous hallucination." - Alan Watts Even worse, it's now a serious and dangerous mass hallucination....

Great quote Felix, like it.

The biggest event of the 20th century may not be WWII etc, but the urbanization of human populations. I can't imagine that is going to help build the awareness Watts speaks of. Intellectually it might, but that's not where the real action is.

The biggest event of the 20th century may not be WWII etc, but the urbanization of human populations. I can't imagine that is going to help build the awareness Watts speaks of.

One solution would be to confine human habitations and industries entirely to the urban and semi-urban areas and conserve tracts of wilderness areas outside of the inhabited regions. But we'll have to start ASAP before our human neurosis progresses to utter madness. It's getting there, it's much worse than it was 45 years ago when Dr. Watts made that prognosis.

Never mind God, people need to start worshipping the planet they live on.

Ormond wrote:
What our bodies crave is real food not descriptions of food or categories of food etc. Its the
same with our minds. We crave real unity not descriptions of unity or theories of unity etc

The mind requires mental stimulation to maintain it. And so this includes all abstract concepts such as descriptions and theories of unity And indeed descriptions and theories of any thing else. While real unity may lead to greater understanding it is not necessary to acquire
it in order to maintain the mind. As long as the mind is being stimulated that is all that is necessary. I accept reality for what it is which leaves my mind free to think whatever it wants. Which makes me as free as it is possible to be while still alive [ death is total freedom ]

Felix wrote:Never mind God, people need to start worshipping the planet they live on.

That sounds good to me, but....

It's our relationship with reality (ie. this planet) that matters. Our relationship with the Earth is what determines how we act on the Earth, just as our relationship with each other determines how we act with each other.

Intellectual understandings are important, such as knowing that climate change is driven by humans so we need to adjust our behavior etc.

But intellectual understanding alone is not enough. Not even close. Intellectual understanding is a thin veneer obscuring the much larger issue below, our emotional relationship. As example, we make great sacrifices for our kids not because we intellectually understand the need, but because we love them. That's the primary driver, emotion.

If we are serious and honest we should recognize that religions are the experts on the phenomena of worship. Science can feed us useful data, and that matters for sure. But science knows little about the worship experience. Scientists can individually experience wonder and inspiration, but it's their own personal matter. They can offer no system of building that experience in mass populations.

I'm not suggesting we all need to get back to Baby Jesus etc. But we do need to recognize that religion has succeeded in sustaining worship for thousands of years in mass populations, even in things unseen.

It should be easier to build worship for things that can be seen, so that's good news. But it would be wise of us to learn from the experts and not try to start again from scratch, as it's unlikely we have time for that.

As example, sometimes when I'm in the woods I personalize nature with the name Gaia.

It's not that I intellectually feel that nature is a human-like entity. I set such intellectual questions aside as distracting abstractions. Never mind about such debates, not important.

If/when personalizing nature with a name helps me emotionally connect then I allow myself to be pulled in that direction. If one can emotionally connect better by some other method, ok, go with that. The point is to emotionally connect by whatever method works.

Religions have wisely seen that human beings are not calculators. We relate to living things more easily than we do to rocks. We are motivated by emotion far more than by reason. Any realistic effort to inspire mass populations to worship Planet Earth must take these realities in to account.

Felix wrote:
Never mind God people need to start worshipping the planet they live on

Worship is the wrong word for that implies unquestioning adherence. What the human race needs to do [ for it has to be a global effort ] is to be grateful they exist on a planet that has allowed life [ not just human life ] to exist on it for the last three and a half to four billion years. But I am very sceptical of this due to the tendency to think individually rather than collectively. For all one has control over is how they treat the planet but beyond that nothing. I personally only focus on what I can do with regard to a given thing as that is all I can do

Could the real question be what is the nature of god?
Who or what is God?
The nature of pure being or pure energy could belong to this search.

I posted the following in another thread, I believe it is relevant here as well.

The ultimate motive for religion [theistic or non-theistic] is driven by an existential desperation which is inherent and generic in ALL human beings.
This is because ALL human beings are inherentlly DOOMed, i.e.
Desperate Of Own Mortality.

Why some doomed human beings are not religious [theistic or otherwise] is because their DOOMed impulses are inhibited by certain neural circuits arising from various factors which for some could be due to progressive mental developments or for others, even brain damage.

Those doomed human beings who are existential desperadoes with weak inhibitors will have no effective choice but to seek recourse to something to relieve the related psychological angst from being doomed.
Religions somehow provide the most effective approach to relieve the mental sufferings [subliminal or otherwise] which trigger an certain neural circuit to inhibit the doomed impulses, i.e. salvation to eternal life in Heaven.
Believe and viola! one is instantly saved and a lifetime of psychological burden is lifted and one is full of bliss [pseudo but who cares].

This is the reason why SOME believers upon being saved from such terrible DOOM will do whatever it takes to ensure they are secured in their mooring to such a 'drug'. SOME believers will even go to the extent of killing non-believers [note only Islam where Allah sanction killing] when their psychological security is threatened [even if they are merely cartoons].

I believe those doomed human beings who are existential desperadoes with weak inhibitors should believe in a God at least in the present circumstances if they do not have any strong atheistic reasons to do so. The only moral reservation is one MUST avoid Islam [in part, not whole] which has a potential for malignant evil.

Note this;
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
livescience.com/19971-belief-god-atheis ... m-age.html

The reason for the above is neurons in the brain atrophized significantly as one is older and thus the inhibitors that dampen the existential DOOM is weakened. This why there are so many atheist turning to God during the later stage of their life. Note, it even happen to the one time most famous atheist, Anthony Flew.

PaulNZ wrote:People take mind altering drugs either to self medicate or escape, because they are unhappy with their reality as they perceive it, or they take them for recreation, for pleasure.

At the point that their addiction reaches a point where their life is in danger, but they choose to continue with the drug taking behaviour, they are at a point in their addiction journey that you might call a crisis point, for the purpose of our discussion as to when God can have power as a concept for these people.

I agree that there can be a gap between the expectation of reality and our actual reality and that this gap can cause unease and unhappiness in individuals. The reason for those feelings can be for a number of reasons including what Ormond described but also including our Western way of dealing with issues, alienation from social circles due to a breakdown in community or the gap between the promise of our modern version of capitalism against the reality of its fruits being for the select few. That feeling is a can of worms in other words, but the point that God can be useful to those at their wits end with nothing to lose still remains a more healthy solution for some than the alternative of death.

I appreciate your point that God represents hope - which is all some have at times.
Ultimately human beings - so often falling short of ideals - are incapable of complete, fulfilling unconditional love which God symbolizes. Others cannot compensate for self-love. Hope in God is hope in and love for self beyond what humans are capable of.

God is defined in many ways... +800 in the bible. I find it helpful to think of God in terms of 3 principles represented in the Wizard of Oz...

• 1) Brain (Intelligent design - obvious, just look closely at a bug or flower or into a clear night sky, or consider the many systems of your body work)
  2) Heart (Intuition and spiritual feeling within, motivation to do GOoD.)
  3) Courage (...to love one another when intuitively sensed to. We answer one another’s prayers, if we’re in tune within to the spiritual world-wide-web.)

*It is beneficial to feel and act grateful for this world, our bodies and all intelligent design. *Hope, meaning and motivation are so powerful, that without them, many die in suicide or slowly die with unexpressed potential.
*If everyone in the world considered not just their own interest but also others and acted on impulses to do good to others, imagine what a better world it’d be! To avoid sounding polyanish (is that a word? )... “Be the change you want to see.”

So, again, yes, it is better to believe in such a God than not to.

Perhaps it's not so much that we should but that the human condition leads us to do so.