Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

[Terrapin Station]

I think we need to separate some people, especially those who are prone to nonconsensual violence, from the main body of society. I'm not in favor of current prisons as the means of separation. Ideally we'd be able to separate the people we need to separate geographically, in a way that we do not need to worry about them reintegrating with the main body of society before they're safely able to (if ever), but where they're free to live among themselves as "normal citizens" in their milieu.

Perhaps this needs some clarification but I don't think a hands this approach will allow prisoners to reintegrate into society and I'm assuming you wouldn't throw together people convicted of minor felonies in with homicidal convicts. The prison system I see in the United States is awful as a result of the fact prison contracts are intended to profit off of the government's need for prison's resulting in incentives to keep lots of people locked away.

I think we need a solution that involves a financial incentive to rehabilitate criminals quickly for successful reintegration into society vs. simply keeping people captive for profit off of government contracts paid for by taxes.

Well, for one there are a lot of things that are now crimes that wouldn't be crimes if I were king--I have a minarchist libertarian stance on a lot of things.

And then other things, even though crimes, I wouldn't imprison anyone for, at least not for a first offense. The people I'd be separating would mostly be violent criminals.

[GE Morton]

I think we need a solution that involves a financial incentive to rehabilitate criminals quickly for successful reintegration into society vs. simply keeping people captive for profit off of government contracts paid for by taxes.

No incentives will work, because no method of "rehabilitating criminals quickly" exists. The most effective methods reduce it by about 25%, which figure is dubious due to unavoidable "selection bias."

Criminal "rehabilitation" is largely a Pollyanna pipedream.

[GE Morton]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

Comparing recidivism rates between countries is uninformative, because different countries calculate it over different periods and count different things as offenses. So is comparing crime rates between countries with different demographics.

[GE Morton]

Sadly they never will since there is lots of money to be made from having the highest residivism rate on earth. Keep those doors swinging inwards, until those crims are packed in like sardines!!!

That is contradictory. It is because those doors are swinging that recidivism rates are high. The only way to substantially reduce it is to close those doors --- keep felons with more than 2 priors locked up for the rest of their lives, or perhaps until age 70 or so.

[Belindi]

Sadly they never will since there is lots of money to be made from having the highest residivism rate on earth. Keep those doors swinging inwards, until those crims are packed in like sardines!!!

That is contradictory. It is because those doors are swinging that recidivism rates are high. The only way to substantially reduce it is to close those doors --- keep felons with more than 2 priors locked up for the rest of their lives, or perhaps until age 70 or so.

GE Morton, that would stop recidivism but would increase the prison population over all.

[Belindi]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

Comparing recidivism rates between countries is uninformative, because different countries calculate it over different periods and count different things as offenses. So is comparing crime rates between countries with different demographics.

A simple measure for comparing the prison population between countries is to compare the newbuild prison capacities between countries.

[LuckyR]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

Sure it does, because Norway has way more Norwegians in it than America does.

[Sculptor1]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

Comparing recidivism rates between countries is uninformative, because different countries calculate it over different periods and count different things as offenses. So is comparing crime rates between countries with different demographics.

Don't be a complete idiot.
The residivism rate is simply the re-offending rate; People who find themselves back in prison within x number of years. There are typically two lengths of time; 5 and 9 years. Norway has the lowest; American the highest.

[Sculptor1]

EG

Norway's incarceration rate is 72 per every 100,000 people compared to America's 693 per 100,000 people. Norway also has the world's lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent,

Sure it does, because Norway has way more Norwegians in it than America does.

WTF ?

[GE Morton]

That is contradictory. It is because those doors are swinging that recidivism rates are high. The only way to substantially reduce it is to close those doors --- keep felons with more than 2 priors locked up for the rest of their lives, or perhaps until age 70 or so.

GE Morton, that would stop recidivism but would increase the prison population over all.

Yes, it would. But the goal is not reducing the prison population. It is --- or should be --- protecting the public the from the depredations of criminals, and securing justice for their victims. You lock up as many people as necessary to accomplish those objectives.

[GE Morton]

The residivism rate is simply the re-offending rate; People who find themselves back in prison within x number of years. There are typically two lengths of time; 5 and 9 years. Norway has the lowest; American the highest.

Egads. Educate yourself. Norway reports recidivism on a 2-year basis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/

[Belindi]

GE Morton, that would stop recidivism but would increase the prison population over all.

Yes, it would. But the goal is not reducing the prison population. It is --- or should be --- protecting the public the from the depredations of criminals, and securing justice for their victims. You lock up as many people as necessary to accomplish those objectives.

But prisons are not an efficient means to stopping crimes. To stop crimes you have to stop the causes of the crimes.

[GE Morton]

Yes, it would. But the goal is not reducing the prison population. It is --- or should be --- protecting the public the from the depredations of criminals, and securing justice for their victims. You lock up as many people as necessary to accomplish those objectives.

But prisons are not an efficient means to stopping crimes. To stop crimes you have to stop the causes of the crimes.

The problem there is that we don't know what are the "causes" of crimes, any more than we know the causes of any other human behavior --- any more than we know why some people prefer Beethoven and others prefer Mozart, or why some people enjoy skiing and others don't. Crime, like all other human behavior, does not have causes; it has motives.

Of course, a determinist would disagree. But then he has the burden of elucidating the all the causes of the infinity of unpredictable human behaviors.

BTW, be sure not to confuse correlation with causation.

I agree that prisons are not a terribly efficient solution; they are costly. Those costs can be reduced by compelling inmates to work, both to earn their keep and to compensate their victims for the losses the criminals have inflicted upon them.

[Sculptor1]

The residivism rate is simply the re-offending rate; People who find themselves back in prison within x number of years. There are typically two lengths of time; 5 and 9 years. Norway has the lowest; American the highest.

Egads. Educate yourself. Norway reports recidivism on a 2-year basis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/

Note where i posted my information.