Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

Arabs did not try to take back the land? Aside, from multiple wars and seventy years of disrupting world politics.

[Pattern-chaser]

Arabs did not try to take back the land? Aside, from multiple wars and seventy years of disrupting world politics.

Did Arabs object to the nakba, the theft of 48% of Palestine (given that Jewish institutions already owned 7%), and try to resist it? Yes. Did the French resist when Germany occupied it in WW2? Yes, of course they did, and so did their neighbours and allies. The same happened in the Middle East, I think? The only difference is that France was soon freed, while Palestine remains occupied...

[Sy Borg]

Arabs did not try to take back the land? Aside, from multiple wars and seventy years of disrupting world politics.

Did Arabs object to the nakba, the theft of 48% of Palestine (given that Jewish institutions already owned 7%), and try to resist it? Yes. Did the French resist when Germany occupied it in WW2? Yes, of course they did, and so did their neighbours and allies. The same happened in the Middle East, I think? The only difference is that France was soon freed, while Palestine remains occupied...

France was a nation, Palestine consisted on the outskirts of Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Most of the land the Jews acquired was low grade, which the Arabs didn't want. This forced the Jews to develop expertise in irrigation. They did so well that they revitalised the lands that the Arabs had previously not wanted. But - surprise! surprise! - once the land had been revived, the Arabs wanted it.

Never mind, you will get your wish in time. In time, Israel will eventually be overpowered by surrounding hostile forces and the entire Middle East will be returned to Islam, and all freedoms removed for the people under an Islamic caliphate. Jews will be scattered around the world and largely diluted from the gene pool. Then, by your standards, justice will be done. By my standards, one small area of the Middle east where people women and gays are treated decently will be removed.

[Belinda]

Arabs did not try to take back the land? Aside, from multiple wars and seventy years of disrupting world politics.

Did Arabs object to the nakba, the theft of 48% of Palestine (given that Jewish institutions already owned 7%), and try to resist it? Yes. Did the French resist when Germany occupied it in WW2? Yes, of course they did, and so did their neighbours and allies. The same happened in the Middle East, I think? The only difference is that France was soon freed, while Palestine remains occupied...

France was a nation, Palestine consisted on the outskirts of Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Most of the land the Jews acquired was low grade, which the Arabs didn't want. This forced the Jews to develop expertise in irrigation. They did so well that they revitalised the lands that the Arabs had previously not wanted. But - surprise! surprise! - once the land had been revived, the Arabs wanted it.

Never mind, you will get your wish in time. In time, Israel will eventually be overpowered by surrounding hostile forces and the entire Middle East will be returned to Islam, and all freedoms removed for the people under an Islamic caliphate. Jews will be scattered around the world and largely diluted from the gene pool. Then, by your standards, justice will be done. By my standards, one small area of the Middle east where people women and gays are treated decently will be removed.

Do you know that the tone of your post is very Right Wing?

[Pattern-chaser]

Never mind, you will get your wish in time. In time, Israel will eventually be overpowered by surrounding hostile forces and the entire Middle East will be returned to Islam, and all freedoms removed for the people under an Islamic caliphate. Jews will be scattered around the world and largely diluted from the gene pool. Then, by your standards, justice will be done. By my standards, one small area of the Middle east where people women and gays are treated decently will be removed.

Once again, you portray this conflict as a religious one. I disagree, as you know. This is not a religious dispute, it's a simple war of conquest, a territorial struggle for control of Palestine. It's a national struggle, as Israel strives to take control and ownership of Palestine.

The one thing this war is *not* is a war of Islam versus Judaism.

[Lagayascienza]

What does it matter who was there first? 130,000 years ago Israel was inhabited by Neanderthals and Modern humans. Then the Neanderthals became extinct and there were only modern humans left. Various groups of modern humans lived there through the Stone Age, the Bronze age, the Roman Empire and up until modern times.

In the Bronze age Palestine was inhabited by various Semitic tribes, including the Jews. At various times, such as during the exile in Egypt, the Jews were expelled from Judea. The Romans took over Judea in 63BC by which time the Jews had returned to Judea. The Jews were a troublesome lot who refused to accept Roman law. When Rome finally lost patience with them, they were again dispersed, this time to various Roman provinces in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Eventually, Islam took over the area. It is only in the modern era that Jews have returned to Palestine in any numbers. And this has again caused endless problems in the region. Mainly because it meant the expulsion of the Palestinians who had lived there for centuries. The Palestinians never agreed to the partition of Palestine. It was forced on them by the great powers.

Israel only exists today because it is propped up, armed and protected by the USA. If NATO were to lose to China/Russia it might be less problematic for the winners to let the Arabs take over Palestine again than to try to broker a peace. In which case there would be a new dispersal of the Jews. China/Russia wouldn’t need to do anything because without America the Arabs and Islam would quickly take over.

Palestine has been a contested area since forever. No group can realistically claim any exclusive prior right to the it.

I am no friend of Islam or Judaism or any religion. But this is not primarily about religion. It is about Lebensraum. Who can say how it will play out. Whatever happens, notions of justice or morality will have little to do with it.

[Sy Borg]

Taiwan only exists today because it has been propped up. Like Israel, it is a small bastion of good governance under threat from authoritarian regimes (China and Iran's proxies respectively). Both will likely be absorbed and dissolved this century.

It's not about religion, it's about tribalism. Jews are basically a tribe, a bloc, which most Muslims in the world are intent of eliminating. With over 2 billion of them and about 16 million Jews, it's only a matter of time. I see no reason to support Muslims in this millennia-old attempt to rid the world of Jews.

[Lagayascienza]

You are probably right, Sy Borg. Taiwan will be absorbed by China. It's one of the regime's core policies. And if Israel is taken over by Islamic forces, the Jews will do what they have always done, which is to try to make successful lives for themselves elsewhere. In the current conflict I don't support Islam or Judaism. I support humanity. Unfortunately, I see little humanity happening in Palestine. It's a mess, with religious fundamentalism on both sides making a resolution impossible.

[Pattern-chaser]

I see no reason to support Muslims in this millennia-old attempt to rid the world of Jews.

To the extent that this prejudice exists, I see good reasons to oppose it, strongly.

But this is a very different and separate thing from the territorial war of conquest currently raging in Palestine, between Israel and Palestine, both supported by their friends and allies.

[Sy Borg]

I see no reason to support Muslims in this millennia-old attempt to rid the world of Jews.

To the extent that this prejudice exists, I see good reasons to oppose it, strongly.

But this is a very different and separate thing from the territorial war of conquest currently raging in Palestine, between Israel and Palestine, both supported by their friends and allies.

No, it is not. The territorial war of conquest is one of Muslims (in this case, the Iran proxy terrorist group, Hamas) attempting to remove Israel. All along, Israel has sought a two-state solution while Palestinian leaders consistently made clear that only the death and scattering of all Jews is the only result they seek. They have been clear and single-minded bout their wish for decades. I suspect that most of Hamas's western supporters don't take them seriously on this issue, mistakenly treating it as angry hyperbole.

[Lagayascienza]

But why start with Muslims trying to remove Israel. Why not start in 1949 with Israel displacing Palestinians. Or why not go back further with Rome dispersing the Jews, or with the Jews displacing other Semitic tribes in the Bronze age. The fact is that in Palestine at the moment both sides want to be rid of the other. So how can that end? If the mutual hatred continues, there are three possibilities:

1. The Israelis exterminate and/or expel the Palestinians
2. The Palestinians exterminate and/or expel the Israelis
3. The present state of hatred and violence continues as it has since 1949 with both sides armed by their supporters so that the armed struggle continues.

These three possibilities are all unpalatable to me. But perhaps not to others.

However, there is a fourth, although a very unlikely possibility, and that is that both parties put aside old hatreds and agree to a two state solution. But Israel does not want that. The Palestinians don't seem to want it either. If that is the case, then it's on with the show. Choose you side.

[Sy Borg]

However, there is a fourth, although a very unlikely possibility, and that is that both parties put aside old hatreds and agree to a two state solution. But Israel does not want that. The Palestinians don't seem to want it either. If that is the case, then it's on with the show. Choose your side.

The Palestinians absolutely have never wanted a two-state solution, Israel has made all of the overtures towards a two-state solution - not a lot, but better than Palestine's/Iran's intractable view that the only acceptable solution is death to Jews. But not all Iranians ...

[Lagayascienza]

However, there is a fourth, although a very unlikely possibility, and that is that both parties put aside old hatreds and agree to a two state solution. But Israel does not want that. The Palestinians don't seem to want it either. If that is the case, then it's on with the show. Choose your side.

The Palestinians absolutely have never wanted a two-state solution, Israel has made all of the overtures towards a two-state solution - not a lot, but better than Palestine's/Iran's intractable view that the only acceptable solution is death to Jews. But not all Iranians ...

On the TV news over the last week I've heard Jews chanting "Death to Arabs" (Google it). I've also heard Palestinian chants of "intifada" (also easy to find). Until both sides accept the right of the other to exist in Palestine, there can be no just solution. It's both really simple and almost impossibly complicated. History, religion, culture, politics, past injustices... all impinge on the simple need of the people involved for a place to live. There have been many efforts to broker solution. All have failed. Both parties have been intransigent. Unless they can find a way to put history, religion, culture, politics and past injustices behind them, it will be business as usual until one of the first two scenarios I mentioned plays out.

[Pattern-chaser]

The territorial war of conquest is one of Muslims (in this case, the Iran proxy terrorist group, Hamas) attempting to remove Israel.

Apples and space-shuttles; they don't compare. Muslims are a religious community; Israel is a political state.

Palestinians are attempting to remove/repel occupying Israeli forces from their land. Not from Israel's land; from their own land.
Israel is trying to do the opposite: to remove Palestinians from Palestine, and take ownership and control of it all.
Israel is not currently under any threat of invasion or occupation. Palestine is currently the subject of an *expanding* occupation...

[Sy Borg]

The territorial war of conquest is one of Muslims (in this case, the Iran proxy terrorist group, Hamas) attempting to remove Israel.

Apples and space-shuttles; they don't compare. Muslims are a religious community; Israel is a political state.

Palestinians are attempting to remove/repel occupying Israeli forces from their land. Not from Israel's land; from their own land.
Israel is trying to do the opposite: to remove Palestinians from Palestine, and take ownership and control of it all.
Israel is not currently under any threat of invasion or occupation. Palestine is currently the subject of an *expanding* occupation...

Rubbish. If there is no Israel, Jews are finished - widely despised minorities, ready to be picked off by Muslims.

Iran is trying to annihilate Judaism, using Hamas (and Hezbollah and the Houthis) to destroy Israel, aided by Russian/Marzist propaganda.

This entire war was started by Iran (using Palesinians as human shields) with one object - to destroy Israel ... which is the same as eliminating the Jews. If any other group was denied a homeland and scattered, it would be called "genocide". It is a genocide that you most heartily approve of, and eagerly anticipate. You would call the elimination of of this small outpost of relative freedom and civility in the middle of a violent Islamic region "justice".

I would call it exactly what you accuse Israel of doing - just more humans trying to wipe others out. Muslims have aimed to kill all Jews for a veery millennia. It's sad to see people whom I once considered to be civilised people buy into this rabid anti-Semitism, misrepresenting Israel's case at every turn, and lionising Hamas fighters as "innocent victims".