Philosophy Discussion Forums

I felt whole lot about VENGEANCE,
Vengeance, or the desire for revenge, is often driven by feelings of anger, betrayal, or a sense of injustice. While it can feel satisfying in the short term, seeking revenge can perpetuate cycles of violence, harm relationships, and often doesn't lead to true resolution or healing. Many philosophies and ethical systems advocate for forgiveness or justice through legal and constructive means rather than personal vengeance, which can be more restorative and lead to more positive outcomes for all involved.

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 6th, 2024, 5:00 pm I agree with most (if not all) of what you posted, though in my lexicon the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" is who is performing the act. To my understanding justice is meted out by the Justice system, whereas vengeance is performed by the victim or their family.

That is not the point I was making

We call it the "Justice system" but in a lot of cases we humans can do little
In a murder case, we cannot bring the murdered victim back from the dead - if we can, that would be true justice
Many people think locking up the criminal or giving him a death sentence is "Justice" but that is only Vengeance, not justice

In cases involving property damage, Justice can be done, as property can be repaired or new ones bought, but if the criminal is too poor and unable to pay for the damages, here again, the "justice" system can do little but throw the guy in jail which does nothing for the victim

This is where Religion comes in - it is supposed to teach us good values - ok, here on earth, you got away with committing a crime, but God will hold you accountable for our actions - that is what Religion is all about

But when we see Christianity & Islam it is all about how we can get converts - not about morals, values or holding the criminal accountable - saying just cry, repent, God will forgive you is so wrong, it is criminal! Talk is cheap, actions matter. The victim is waiting for Justice, for things to be set right and God is letting the criminal go because he cried? That's not right

Torturing the criminal in Hell is not right either, that is vengeance, not justice, again does nothing for the victim

Only Reincarnation offers some form of Justice for the victim. First of all, it asks the criminal to take responsibility, come back and set things right by the victim, not think we can just cry our way out
And as for the murdered victims - here again, I don't see how sitting in Heaven - a Charity Retirement Home full of aged people - is comforting
If a child is murdered - growing up without their mother, father, family, loved ones, friends, school, the only life they had known and to grow up in a Retirement Home full of old people - is horrifying!
The only way Justice is rendered is by giving the Child a new Life!

Lastly, the fact that Christian/Islamic promises of Repent, God will forgive, have never been challenged, confirms what I have been saying in the threads that I started - that all our morals are biased, self-serving

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 9th, 2024, 11:11 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 6th, 2024, 5:00 pm I agree with most (if not all) of what you posted, though in my lexicon the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" is who is performing the act. To my understanding justice is meted out by the Justice system, whereas vengeance is performed by the victim or their family.

That is not the point I was making

We call it the "Justice system" but in a lot of cases we humans can do little
In a murder case, we cannot bring the murdered victim back from the dead - if we can, that would be true justice
Many people think locking up the criminal or giving him a death sentence is "Justice" but that is only Vengeance, not justice

In cases involving property damage, Justice can be done, as property can be repaired or new ones bought, but if the criminal is too poor and unable to pay for the damages, here again, the "justice" system can do little but throw the guy in jail which does nothing for the victim

This is where Religion comes in - it is supposed to teach us good values - ok, here on earth, you got away with committing a crime, but God will hold you accountable for our actions - that is what Religion is all about

But when we see Christianity & Islam it is all about how we can get converts - not about morals, values or holding the criminal accountable - saying just cry, repent, God will forgive you is so wrong, it is criminal! Talk is cheap, actions matter. The victim is waiting for Justice, for things to be set right and God is letting the criminal go because he cried? That's not right

Torturing the criminal in Hell is not right either, that is vengeance, not justice, again does nothing for the victim

Only Reincarnation offers some form of Justice for the victim. First of all, it asks the criminal to take responsibility, come back and set things right by the victim, not think we can just cry our way out
And as for the murdered victims - here again, I don't see how sitting in Heaven - a Charity Retirement Home full of aged people - is comforting
If a child is murdered - growing up without their mother, father, family, loved ones, friends, school, the only life they had known and to grow up in a Retirement Home full of old people - is horrifying!
The only way Justice is rendered is by giving the Child a new Life!

Lastly, the fact that Christian/Islamic promises of Repent, God will forgive, have never been challenged, confirms what I have been saying in the threads that I started - that all our morals are biased, self-serving

Individuals such as you and I are helpless without the society of other people.

You have never said which religious sect you were taught by. Your teacher of religion seems not to have been well informed. God is not a heavenly judge, but is forgiving and merciful.

Your experience of some religion or other has not been about how people live together with other people. God is not a judge but is forgiving and merciful. So you need to stop trusting that religion and find another set of people who hold ideas that are fit for purpose about good and evil. Some religious people do challenge their ministers of religion, I have done so and many of my friends have done so. Some move away to a church, mosque, synagogue , or discussion forum that teaches or inspires a more reasonable faith.
Judging is not an activity that God does: judging is an activity that humans do.

Revenge -justice is a form of keeping the peace called vendetta. Vendetta is an inefficient system of government.
Cambridge Dictionary:
a long and violent argument between people or families, in which one group tries to harm the other in order to punish them for things that happened in the past:

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 8th, 2024, 7:33 am Exactly. Vengeance is a little like blame. First, you decide to hurt or harm someone, because they 'deserve' it. Then you fabricate a 'reason' why this is 'justified'. Then you hurt them. Vengeance achieves nothing.

But that doesn't mean that the only option left is passive-and-accepting pacifism. No, if someone has done significant harm, the rest of us need protecting from any further harm they may do, but haven't yet. The future can still be changed, unlike the past. So robust action is often justified and appropriate. It has a worthwhile purpose to achieve.

In contrast, vengeance seals in violent tit-for-tat feuds, and causes others to become more entrenched in their own (vengeful?) views. Violence breeds more violence...

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 9th, 2024, 3:25 pm Well I agree with your red statement. If you don't want to label my "robust action" as "vengeance", that's fine with me. Most do, though.

I think the two can be differentiated quite easily. Vengeance is punishment — you hurt me, so I will hurt you. "Robust" action is not shying away from the somewhat unpleasant act of confronting a wrongdoer, and protecting those they have yet to harm by constraining or confining them.

Hello Sailor wrote: ↑August 8th, 2024, 9:14 am So your kid goes to school one day He's had good martial arts training. Good kid doesn't show off it's just for defense. The bully picks a fight but gets a hiding in front of other kids, humiliated. Goes home to his abusive father who mocks him a little for being a *****. This kid has a nasty streak in him and full of vengeance sticks a knife in your kids back the next day....
What do you do?
How do you feel about vengeance?

If your question is: would I seek vengeance against the kid who murdered my kid, then if the kid is arrested and goes through the Justice system, then: no, in my worldview there is no need for vengeance (even if he gets a slap on the wrist, or is found "not guilty"). In my view, vengeance is specifically relevent in cases where the Justice system does not or can not provide justice.

OTOH, I don't understand why you went through the effort to describe the martial arts angle, since it doesn't matter to the above question. Are you trying to define defending oneself as "vengeance"?

Belinda wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 3:23 am God is not a heavenly judge, but is forgiving and merciful.

I am sorry Forgiveness is EARNED and only the VICTIM has the right to forgive, God is not cheating the victim of their rights
And one Earns Forgiveness by setting things back the way they were, doing the right thing and not by crying boo-hoo
If you drove drunk one night and caused damage to a parked car, the Judge will make you pay for the damage to the vehicle and also any income lost due to the damage done
The victim is made whole and is more than happy to forgive the incident
.
Religion is using God as a crutch - get away without having to face the victim, do right by the victim
BTW - "I am so sorry for what happened, I feel so bad" - IS NOT REPENTANCE!
"I am sorry my actions caused harm to x person. I take full responsibility. Please give me a chance to do the right thing, make amends, pay the victims for their loss" - now THIS IS REPENTANCE!
.
In the first all the crying is about himself - no mention of the victim
In the latter, the person is taking responsibility and feels sorry for the VICTIM, not himself. He is not asking for forgiveness - his main thought is how he can set things right - the victim is hurting, priority no. 1 is to stop the hurt, set things right - Forgiveness comes later and it is EARNED, not given!
.
Problem? Doing things is hard - easy to make resolutions, cry, feel bad etc
We have ALL made new years resolutions - quite a few really, really, really mean it - but the follow-thru is hard
As I posted before - many people have had heart attacks and survived - on their hospital bed, they hug their families, realize how close they came to losing everything and vow with all their heart to change - to stop drinking or smoking, exercise, eat right etc etc
But so many fail to follow-thru - because doing is the hard part
.
Religions that stress Repentance, forgiveness without mentioning the Victim, making amends are simply giving their followers the back-door way out
I doubt God will help them cheat their victims
.
And again it makes my point - people abandoning their morals, values when it suits them - our morals are biased, self-serving

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 9:43 am I think the two can be differentiated quite easily. Vengeance is punishment — you hurt me, so I will hurt you. "Robust" action is not shying away from the somewhat unpleasant act of confronting a wrongdoer, and protecting those they have yet to harm by constraining or confining them.

Vengeance is quick, full of hate & anger, is violent
Justice is slow, no hate nor anger, and is non-violent
Gandhiji taught us this lesson and his ideas were followed by Nelson Mandela and MLK
And we know peaceful protests get more done than by using violence, causing mayhem

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 10:59 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 9:43 am I think the two can be differentiated quite easily. Vengeance is punishment — you hurt me, so I will hurt you. "Robust" action is not shying away from the somewhat unpleasant act of confronting a wrongdoer, and protecting those they have yet to harm by constraining or confining them.

Vengeance is quick, full of hate & anger, is violent
Justice is slow, no hate nor anger, and is non-violent
Gandhiji taught us this lesson and his ideas were followed by Nelson Mandela and MLK
And we know peaceful protests get more done than by using violence, causing mayhem

Interesting definitions. So getting a death sentence from a slow, deliberate trial is what?

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 10:56 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 3:23 am God is not a heavenly judge, but is forgiving and merciful.

I am sorry Forgiveness is EARNED and only the VICTIM has the right to forgive, God is not cheating the victim of their rights
And one Earns Forgiveness by setting things back the way they were, doing the right thing and not by crying boo-hoo
If you drove drunk one night and caused damage to a parked car, the Judge will make you pay for the damage to the vehicle and also any income lost due to the damage done
The victim is made whole and is more than happy to forgive the incident
.
Religion is using God as a crutch - get away without having to face the victim, do right by the victim
BTW - "I am so sorry for what happened, I feel so bad" - IS NOT REPENTANCE!
"I am sorry my actions caused harm to x person. I take full responsibility. Please give me a chance to do the right thing, make amends, pay the victims for their loss" - now THIS IS REPENTANCE!
.
In the first all the crying is about himself - no mention of the victim
In the latter, the person is taking responsibility and feels sorry for the VICTIM, not himself. He is not asking for forgiveness - his main thought is how he can set things right - the victim is hurting, priority no. 1 is to stop the hurt, set things right - Forgiveness comes later and it is EARNED, not given!
.
Problem? Doing things is hard - easy to make resolutions, cry, feel bad etc
We have ALL made new years resolutions - quite a few really, really, really mean it - but the follow-thru is hard
As I posted before - many people have had heart attacks and survived - on their hospital bed, they hug their families, realize how close they came to losing everything and vow with all their heart to change - to stop drinking or smoking, exercise, eat right etc etc
But so many fail to follow-thru - because doing is the hard part
.
Religions that stress Repentance, forgiveness without mentioning the Victim, making amends are simply giving their followers the back-door way out
I doubt God will help them cheat their victims
.
And again it makes my point - people abandoning their morals, values when it suits them - our morals are biased, self-serving

We don't disagree but use words differently. I claim that God is a name for a lot of different ideas: religions are made by men.
I am saying that if a supernatural judge is what you mean by God, then your idea of God is ineffectual. I say that my idea of God as all-merciful is a better idea however none of us is
all-merciful God, so we must do justice as well as we humanly can.This where your idea of justice and my idea of justice are much the same.

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 9th, 2024, 11:11 pm
That is not the point I was making

We call it the "Justice system" but in a lot of cases we humans can do little
In a murder case, we cannot bring the murdered victim back from the dead - if we can, that would be true justice
Many people think locking up the criminal or giving him a death sentence is "Justice" but that is only Vengeance, not justice

In cases involving property damage, Justice can be done, as property can be repaired or new ones bought, but if the criminal is too poor and unable to pay for the damages, here again, the "justice" system can do little but throw the guy in jail which does nothing for the victim

This is where Religion comes in - it is supposed to teach us good values - ok, here on earth, you got away with committing a crime, but God will hold you accountable for our actions - that is what Religion is all about

But when we see Christianity & Islam it is all about how we can get converts - not about morals, values or holding the criminal accountable - saying just cry, repent, God will forgive you is so wrong, it is criminal! Talk is cheap, actions matter. The victim is waiting for Justice, for things to be set right and God is letting the criminal go because he cried? That's not right

Torturing the criminal in Hell is not right either, that is vengeance, not justice, again does nothing for the victim

Only Reincarnation offers some form of Justice for the victim. First of all, it asks the criminal to take responsibility, come back and set things right by the victim, not think we can just cry our way out
And as for the murdered victims - here again, I don't see how sitting in Heaven - a Charity Retirement Home full of aged people - is comforting
If a child is murdered - growing up without their mother, father, family, loved ones, friends, school, the only life they had known and to grow up in a Retirement Home full of old people - is horrifying!
The only way Justice is rendered is by giving the Child a new Life!

Lastly, the fact that Christian/Islamic promises of Repent, God will forgive, have never been challenged, confirms what I have been saying in the threads that I started - that all our morals are biased, self-serving

I think you are right Vanamali Thotapalli. The problem is that in many cases there can never be perfect justice because some loses cannot be remedied. Murder is an example. No one can restore life to a victim and so there is little scope for a perpetrator to make amends. In such cases “restorative justice” doesn’t have much of a role to play and we are left with only “retributive justice”. Retributive justice is not about restoring loss but about exacting punishment. Punishment is about taking vengeance, making an offender suffer in some way for his crime in the absence of restorative justice.

I agree that religion offers little in the way of justice. This is because, firstly, I don’t think religion is true, and secondly because, even if it were true, it would offer, at best, only retributive justice or vengeance. To expect justice from religion is to expect the impossible. The law can offer remedies for property damage and other loses but religion cannot even offer that. Religion, if it were true, could not offer restorative justice. Forgiveness of sins is nonsense. Forgiveness can only occur here on earth. Gods do not forgive perpetrators. But victims can, and sometomes do, forgive perpetrators. Similarly, restorative justice, insofar it is available at all, can also only be achieved here on earth by us and not by gods.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 9:43 am I think the two can be differentiated quite easily. Vengeance is punishment — you hurt me, so I will hurt you. "Robust" action is not shying away from the somewhat unpleasant act of confronting a wrongdoer, and protecting those they have yet to harm by constraining or confining them.

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 10:59 pm Vengeance is quick, full of hate & anger, is violent
Justice is slow, no hate nor anger, and is non-violent
Gandhiji taught us this lesson and his ideas were followed by Nelson Mandela and MLK
And we know peaceful protests get more done than by using violence, causing mayhem

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 11th, 2024, 2:29 am Interesting definitions. So getting a death sentence from a slow, deliberate trial is what?

If the trial hears all available evidence, and is carried out in a just and considered manner, then that is not "revenge", as I would see it. I don't agree with a death sentence in any circumstances, but there are otherwise-civilised societies where it is practised, so...


As regards Vanamali's comments, I'm not sure that vengeance need always be quick — 'revenge is a dish best served cold' — or justice always slow, but other than that, I think I agree with what they say.

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 10:56 pm I am sorry Forgiveness is EARNED and only the VICTIM has the right to forgive...

Yes to the latter, but a resounding "NO!" to the former. Forgiveness is given (by the victim), or not, at the victim's choice/decision. Forgiveness can never be coerced, and some victims find that impossible. But it cannot be "earned".

Forgiveness, its effect and its meaning, apply only to the victim. The culprit need never know they have been forgiven; forgiveness is not for culprits, it's for victims. Those who do forgive, often claim that it helps or allows them to recover better from whatever was done to them.

A forgiven culprit might feel a little better about themselves, but that's a happy (?) side effect, not the intention or purpose of forgiveness.

Yes, if there is no retribution, what will stop psychopaths from wreaking havoc on decent people? There is a reason why ancient punishment were so savage - they were savage times and the criminals were often terrifying people.

Of course there needs to be confinement of criminals and violent psychopaths to protect us from their depredations. Such confinement may also serve as punishment, but I see punishment as secondary. Psychopaths generally do not respond to punishment. It has no effect and they continue to offend. However, may people get some satifaction at seeing criminal pshychopaths punished even if it has no effect. Just deserts and all that. It's a sort of vengeance that I'm ok with. And if confinement as punishment keeps us safe, and if it serves as a warning to non-psychopathic offenders or potential offenders, then punishment is useful. As are other strategies for preventing and reducing crime.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 11th, 2024, 8:03 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 9:43 am I think the two can be differentiated quite easily. Vengeance is punishment — you hurt me, so I will hurt you. "Robust" action is not shying away from the somewhat unpleasant act of confronting a wrongdoer, and protecting those they have yet to harm by constraining or confining them.

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 10th, 2024, 10:59 pm Vengeance is quick, full of hate & anger, is violent
Justice is slow, no hate nor anger, and is non-violent
Gandhiji taught us this lesson and his ideas were followed by Nelson Mandela and MLK
And we know peaceful protests get more done than by using violence, causing mayhem

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 11th, 2024, 2:29 am Interesting definitions. So getting a death sentence from a slow, deliberate trial is what?

If the trial hears all available evidence, and is carried out in a just and considered manner, then that is not "revenge", as I would see it. I don't agree with a death sentence in any circumstances, but there are otherwise-civilised societies where it is practised, so...


As regards Vanamali's comments, I'm not sure that vengeance need always be quick — 'revenge is a dish best served cold' — or justice always slow, but other than that, I think I agree with what they say.

It's interesting, he draws the distinction based on the goal of the actor, you seem to key in on what and in what circumstances it occurs and I focus on who is performing the action.