Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Blake 789]

Time only began to exist when the universe began so it's like asking what lays north of the north pole.

[Rr6]

I have recently thought of another way to answer this question (When did the Universe Begin?), which I think is interesting and provocative.The Universe began an infinite amount of time ago. It began "forever ago"....

1st law of thermodynamics is approximated this way;

physical/energy cannot be created nor destroyed ergo Universe is eternally existent.

Eternally existent means no beginning and not ending.

Occupied space cannot be created nor destroyed, it have inter-transformations of itself.

There exist three primary parts of our finite, yet eternally existent, occupied space Uni-Verse

1} observed time as physical/energy ergo fermions, bosons and aggregate thereof ex atoms and humans,
...spirit-2as occupied space..............

2} gravity (<>)-- aka mass-attraction...contraction/pulling-INward of space-time
..metaphysical-3, spirit-3 as occupied space......

3} dark energy---cosmological constant of accelerating expansion of space-time
...metaphysical-4, spirit-4 as occupied space..............

The truth is out there for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it. imho

r6

[Wayne92587]

Blake wrote;

Time only began to exist when the universe began

Time Eternal, everlasting Time, the Singularity of, undifferentiated Time, the Singularity of Time, existing prior to the beginning of the Universe.
Differentiated Time beginning at the moment of the Creation of the Reality of First Cause.

[ZoneOfNonBeing]

There is a sense in which the question of when here is inherently flawed. The reason is because time is an exclusively human construct. Unlike animals, humans have knowledge of their inevitable death. For humans, there is a distance between knowledge of death and actualization of death. This distance is time. Before we were born, there were no thoughts or actions, and thus no time. After we die, there will be no thoughts or actions, and thus no time.

The question "when did the universe begin" assumes that humans are the only vantage point from which to view the universe. The question also implies that the beginning of the universe can be marked on a line segment. What if the universe is circular (thus blurring the 'beginning' and 'end') ?

[Steve3007]

I think we simply have to remember that time is what we measure with a clock, as a famous physicist once said.

It's fine to extrapolate beyond what we can directly measure, so long as we recognize that any such extrapolation involves models, metaphors and analogies. A year is defined by the "clock" of the Earth orbiting the Sun. As soon as we extend that unit of time, or any other unit of time, beyond its area of direct relevance, then we are reasoning by analogy. Ultimately, if we attempt to extend our time concept into a place where there are no clocks of any kind, and there never could be, then we are bending our analogy to breaking point.


Wayne92587:

Yes! ...

It is a great pity that you are one of the gibberish-talkers on these forums. For all I know, you might have something interesting to say.

[ZoneOfNonBeing]

It's fine to extrapolate beyond what we can directly measure, so long as we recognize that any such extrapolation involves models, metaphors and analogies. A year is defined by the "clock" of the Earth orbiting the Sun. As soon as we extend that unit of time, or any other unit of time, beyond its area of direct relevance, then we are reasoning by analogy.

First of all, there is a difference between the symbol and the symbolized. The symbol is our social construction; the symbolized is a phenomena we are over-determined by. As a society, we have agreed to use the symbol of the clock to symbolize the Earth orbiting the Sun. The purpose of the symbol is to represent the symbolized, not substitute it, or devalue it.

My disagreement with your statement stems from your fixation with the symbol. More directly, when you are argue that any extrapolation 'beyond what we can directly measure' falls into the category of 'metaphors and analogies' - you forget that time itself is a metaphor and analogy. Time is not natural; we cannot find time in the stars, the mountains, or the oceans. The clock is a metaphor and analogy for motion in an ever-changing universe. Since you have conflated the symbol with the symbolized, it performs the work of making the symbol sacred.

[Wayne92587]

Steve wrote: 470
It is a great pity that you are one of the gibberish-talkers on these forums. For all I know, you might have something
interesting to say.

Steve, the first thing that I want to say is that I am honored, no not honored, that I am thrilled to have you respond to my post, especially in you saying that I am a gibberish-talker.

Sometimes Knowledge is hidden in plain sight simply because the observer does not have the Mind’s Eye that is needed in order to be able to see what it is they are looking at; some are lookers without being able to see.


Thank you for your response!!

-- Updated June 14th, 2016, 7:29 am to add the following --

Blake wrote; # 468
Time Eternal, everlasting Time, the Singularity of, undifferentiated Time, the Singularity of Time, existing prior to the beginning of the Universe.
Differentiated Time beginning at the moment of the Creation of the Reality of First Cause.

Blake all that I see is a repeat of something that I posted.
I can not tell if you are trying to insult me as Steve has did or not,
if it is, you have also failed.

If it is not your intent to insult me, could you explain your post?

[Steve3007]

Wayne: Thank you for your good humoured response to my "gibberish-talk" dig.

As ever, when you actually want to be understood, you spring back into normal lucid English. I'm sure you're right that knowledge might sometimes be hidden in plain sight. But it's also true that gibberish is sometimes wrapped up in flowery language to make it sound deep. I'm sure in your case it's the former.

[Wayne92587]

Steve, I would consider my post as speaking in Tongues, which is also call gibberish.

-- Updated June 14th, 2016, 7:39 am to add the following --

Think of speaking in tongues as being technical talk, the use of words that are only understood by those having specialize Knowledge.

[Steve3007]

OK. I will bow to your specialized technical knowledge. Is it possible to communicate this knowledge in a way that other humans understand? Seems a pity if not.

[Wayne92587]

Steve, what you say, I create a couple of posts and you and I and anyone else that is willing to be helpful; take note of the word "helpful0," an if we can make sense of my gibberish.

Zone0fNonBeing wrote; # 471
First of all, there is a difference between the symbol and the symbolized. The symbol is our social construction; the symbolized is a phenomena we are over-determined by. As a society, we have agreed to use the symbol of the clock to The purpose of the symbol is to represent the symbolized, not substitute it, or devalue it.

We use metaphors, symbols, to make real something that has substance but no mass.

Nothingness was the only thing that existed before the beginning of the existence of the Universe, nothing being a substance that has no mass, that is eternal, everlasting, exists an as an Immortal Reality, a Substance having no Mass; Pure Unadulterated Energy, Heat Energy, Passion.

How is it possible for the Reality of First Cause to be "Uncaused."

Uncaused? I don't get it.

The Reality of First Cause in the beginning existed Nothingness, as a Singularity having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0, being a substance having not mass.

Zero-0 being the first, existing as a Random Singularity was transfigured without substantive change, a Singularity of Zero-0 as a Affect became the first Singularity to have relative a numerical value of One-1.

A Singularity of One-1 becoming relative, because of displacement became the first in a Series, the beginning of a process such as the Evolutionary Process, by becoming the beginning of a continuum such as Space-Time.

The Reality of First Cause (as in the butterfly effect) became the direct material cause of the system of Chaos that has made manifest Reality of the Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything that exists in the material, physical sense of the word, to exist, to be.

True, the purpose of using metaphors, symbolizing, “whatever”, is not simply to represent a real object, a symbol is meant to be used to give understanding to something that is not understood, hidden, secret, sacred, that is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum is Space-Time, meaning, a name, a face to a Spiritual Reality.

In order for an something to exist it must be shown to exist as a object in Space-Time; Space-Time being defined as being the four-dimensional World of Reality, the Three dimensions of Space and momentum; momentum being motion in Time.

Time is not a metaphor, a clock is not a symbol, is not used as analogy, is not simply a substitute for the time that it takes for the Earth to orbit the Sun.

The existence of the Earth requires that the Earth to exist, as a material, physical Reality, to be readily apparent, be measurable as to location and momentum; Momentum meaning the measurement of Time that it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun.

You do not need a metaphor, a symbol, an analogy to make an observation of a Material, Physical, an empirical fact.
Metaphors, symbols, metaphors are used to represent the Immaterial, the Spiritual World of Reality.

A metaphor is used in place of the identity of an Entity that is not readily apparent, that is not measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time, that has no Name, no Face, that is hidden in plain sight, Sacred, Secret.

A Clock, is neither a metaphor nor a symbol, is a material, physical Reality that is used not to symbolize, but to actually measure the momentum, to measure the Time it take the Earth to orbit the Sun; momentum being a measurement of motion in Time.

In order to exist an entity must exist as a material, physical, an Empirical Reality, must be readily apparent, must be measurable as to location and momentum, the measurement of its motion in Time.

Woman being used as a metaphor being symbolic, being used as an analogy, used as a symbol to represent a Reality that is not readily apparent, the is not measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time, that is hidden in plain sight, that is secret, Sacred.

There is problem, just so much gibberish, Babel created by using woman, a physical object, to symbolize a non-Material Reality, a Spiritual Reality, a reality that does not exist in the material, physical sense of the word.

Woman originally used as an analogy for a certain Spiritual Reality suddenly becomes the Identity, it being used as a substitution for a Hidden, Secret, for a Reality that is sacred.

Take the Great Femininity for example.

Instead of Woman as a metaphor, Femininity becomes the Identity, the name, the face, of a certain Spiritual, hidden, secret, sacred, Reality.

This is the beginning of the confusion caused by the use of metaphors, becoming just so much Babel, causing man to speak in tongues; Man’s spoken word to make use of technical terms.

Woman, Femininity, taking on the nature, the characteristics of an Immaterial, Spiritual Reality, a Reality that has no substance, no material worth, Man becomes superior to woman, woman becoming Immaterial, man having substance, material, physical worth; Woman, Femininity turning the Male of the species in to a Pig, a Male Chauvinistic Pig, a Beast that is sick in the head, sic, sic, sic.

The last sentence being an analogy of the Mark, the Name, the Number of the Beast, 666, sic, sic, sic, get it.
The Fundamentalist Male having machismo, a perverted, distorted sense of Manliness.

I heard a voice say, come and see; I came and saw a rider on a white horse wearing a crown going about destroying, killing and
conquering.

The literary Rule of Three, repeat a name, a number, an identity of an Immaterial Entity "Three" times in quick succession and the identity, the Name, the Number, the Face sticks, is remembered, becomes a Reality, the Truth.

-- Updated June 14th, 2016, 9:00 pm to add the following --

The Universe began sometime, somewhere, somehow, Far-Out in Left Field.

-- Updated June 14th, 2016, 9:00 pm to add the following --

The Universe began sometime, somewhere, somehow, Far-Out in Left Field.

[Steve3007]

Wayne:

Steve, what you say, I create a couple of posts and you and I and anyone else that is willing to be helpful; take note of the word "helpful0," an if we can make sense of my gibberish

No thanks. You've shown yourself to be capable of writing in succinct English sentences when you want to be understood. My conclusion is that your vast tracts of gibberish are not intended to be understood. If you want to be understood, let me know. Otherwise, have fun.

[ZoneOfNonBeing]

Hello Wayne: thank you for your thoughtful engagement! I am only able to decipher a few sentences of your reply, though. I find some of the language you are using here to be quite obscure - insofar as you are assuming readers know what you are talking about with terms like "Passion, First Cause" etc..

[Wayne92587]

Steve wrote:
No thanks. My conclusion is that your vast tracts of gibberish are not intended to be understood. If you want to be understood, let me know. Otherwise, have fun.

Thanks anyway Steve; it is obvious than I have not made myself clear enough for you to understand my post by your conclusion that I create my vast tracts of gibberish in order to sound profound and that I intend that my vast tracts of gibberish not be understood.

Oh Well,"C'est la vie" "That's life"

[Steve3007]

Wayne: I understood that one perfectly. Very clear.

Anyway, no hard feelings. Express yourself in whatever way makes you happy. I admire your humility in stating that you have not made yourself clear enough to be understood. There is another poster who would do well to follow your example in that regard.