Philosophy Discussion Forums

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:51 pm Palestine sends the missiles - and you apportion zero blame.

I never apportion "blame". Blame is just a precursor to some form of attack, an attempt to pre-justify that attack, which someone is going to make anyway. Blame has no useful function. Responsibility is another matter...

In the context of a state of affairs that began thousands of years ago, the Palestinians launched missiles toward Israel. The responsibility for that act must lie with the Palestinians. But it can only be seen in context, like any and all other such acts, by any and all 'sides'. There are no contextless actions; there are causes, and there are many influences too. This matter has history; lots of it. Context.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:46 pm In other words, you believe that Jews have no land and must be scattered around the globe.

You seem very keen to assign or ascribe certain ideas to me; ideas that I have not stated, or even implied. Why is that?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:51 pm Palestine sends the missiles - and you apportion zero blame.

I never apportion "blame".

Unless against Israel!

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:46 pm In other words, you believe that Jews have no land and must be scattered around the globe.

You seem very keen to assign or ascribe certain ideas to me; ideas that I have not stated, or even implied. Why is that? 🤔

Because you your views show lack of balance, when considered against worse events. So I have to wonder, why you focus on what Israel does and not on what Russia, China, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC, Mexico, Mali, Haiti et al? There are three possibilities:

1. Emoting on cue for the media

2. Anti-Semitism / white self-hatred

3. You, or your friends, are Palestinian/Muslims.

The only good reason to give special attention to this war over so many others is its risk of escalation.

Consul wrote: ↑October 15th, 2023, 3:49 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 14th, 2023, 7:17 am How can Isreal justify the 1900 people they have already killed this week, and claim that Hamas is wrong to attackt the inncent?

There is no symmetry of guilt, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

But you cannot "unintentionally kill" if you arm yourself with a lethal weapon.
Your use of 'justified' is odd. That way lies the ancient justice system of vendetta between warring tribes. Think about it!
If you yourself don't support the cause of immediate ceasefire by extreme right wing Israelis then you tacitly support them.

Belindi wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 7:56 pm

Consul wrote: ↑October 15th, 2023, 3:49 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 14th, 2023, 7:17 am How can Isreal justify the 1900 people they have already killed this week, and claim that Hamas is wrong to attackt the inncent?

There is no symmetry of guilt, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

But you cannot "unintentionally kill" if you arm yourself with a lethal weapon.
Your use of 'justified' is odd. That way lies the ancient justice system of vendetta between warring tribes. Think about it!
If you yourself don't support the cause of immediate ceasefire by extreme right wing Israelis then you tacitly support them.

Then again, if you support and immediate ceasefire then you support giving Hamas time to regroup and attack Israel again.

Do you also support an immediate ceasefire by Russia in Ukraine, immediate liberation of Uyghurs in China, and an immediate ceasefire in Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC and Mali? Yet these don't seem to be of anywhere near the same interest to you. Why are Palestinians so much more important than all others around the world who are suffering?

Making excuses for inadvertently killing others is an effort to give moral credence to the killer. To kill another by omitting due care for them is as bad as deliberate murder.
No excuse!

Common soldiers whose training has brutalised them and so made them mad are victims of the brutalisers , but the brutalisers well know what they do when they order bombs to be dropped on civilians. No excuse!

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:11 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 7:56 pm

Consul wrote: ↑October 15th, 2023, 3:49 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 14th, 2023, 7:17 am How can Isreal justify the 1900 people they have already killed this week, and claim that Hamas is wrong to attackt the inncent?

There is no symmetry of guilt, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

But you cannot "unintentionally kill" if you arm yourself with a lethal weapon.
Your use of 'justified' is odd. That way lies the ancient justice system of vendetta between warring tribes. Think about it!
If you yourself don't support the cause of immediate ceasefire by extreme right wing Israelis then you tacitly support them.

Then again, if you support and immediate ceasefire then you support giving Hamas time to regroup and attack Israel again.

Do you also support an immediate ceasefire by Russia in Ukraine, immediate liberation of Uyghurs in China, and an immediate ceasefire in Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC and Mali? Yet these don't seem to be of anywhere near the same interest to you. Why are Palestinians so much more important than all others around the world who are suffering?

Like dragon's teeth, Hamas maybe under a different name will regroup. Either that or the murderous extreme right will kill off all the peoples who they want to obliterate.The Middle East for historical reasons is a story of colonisation and resistance to colonisers. My country endured a brutal Roman invasion after which the Romans colonised Britain for four hundred years during which they efficiently crucified hundreds of locals who displeased them.

I am a member of Amnesty International so I have indeed worked in a small small way to procure justice in other lands and among other peoples.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:51 pm Palestine sends the missiles - and you apportion zero blame.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am I never apportion "blame". Blame is just a precursor to some form of attack, an attempt to pre-justify that attack, which someone is going to make anyway. Blame has no useful function. Responsibility is another matter...

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 2:14 pm Unless against Israel!

I don't think I have ever done this. I hope not. I have never intended to. But responsibility is a different matter, as I have said, but you didn't quote.

******************************************************************************************************

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am You seem very keen to assign or ascribe certain ideas to me; ideas that I have not stated, or even implied. Why is that?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 2:14 pm Because you your views show lack of balance, when considered against worse events. So I have to wonder, why you focus on what Israel does and not on what Russia, China, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC, Mexico, Mali, Haiti et al? There are three possibilities:

1. Emoting on cue for the media

2. Anti-Semitism / white self-hatred

3. You, or your friends, are Palestinian/Muslims.

The only good reason to give special attention to this war over so many others is its risk of escalation.

4. This topic is concerned with just the one conflict, not with all of them. Therefore, it seems appropriate to comment only on that topic.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 21st, 2024, 10:37 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 3:51 pm Palestine sends the missiles - and you apportion zero blame.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am I never apportion "blame". Blame is just a precursor to some form of attack, an attempt to pre-justify that attack, which someone is going to make anyway. Blame has no useful function. Responsibility is another matter...

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 2:14 pm Unless against Israel!

I don't think I have ever done this. I hope not. I have never intended to. But responsibility is a different matter, as I have said, but you didn't quote.

******************************************************************************************************

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 10:48 am You seem very keen to assign or ascribe certain ideas to me; ideas that I have not stated, or even implied. Why is that? 🤔

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 20th, 2024, 2:14 pm Because you your views show lack of balance, when considered against worse events. So I have to wonder, why you focus on what Israel does and not on what Russia, China, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC, Mexico, Mali, Haiti et al? There are three possibilities:

1. Emoting on cue for the media

2. Anti-Semitism / white self-hatred

3. You, or your friends, are Palestinian/Muslims.

The only good reason to give special attention to this war over so many others is its risk of escalation.

4. This topic is concerned with just the one conflict, not with all of them. Therefore, it seems appropriate to comment only on that topic.

I see no interest in starting topics about the others. Why do people single out Israel, basically demanding that Jews be scattered again, without a home ("from the river to the sea"), but care NOTHING for ANY of the other wars?

Easy answers: Publicity by anti-Semites whipping up hatred.

The irony is that the word "apartheid" has been used. If pro-Palestine protesters got their way it would be an absolute disaster for the people of the area as various groups couldd now refocus on their civil wars. Hamas don't care about the people, they care about geoplolitical aims.

Consider what happened when the bleeding heart left (including me) pushed South Africa to abandon apartheid. Now many black South Africans say things were much better under apartheid. They were better looked after by the Afrikaaners than by themselves, because they have ancient tribal enmities that a controlling force keeps in check.

Look at what happened when we "liberated" Iraqis and Libyans from Saddam and Gaddafi. It was an unmitigated disaster for the people because the dictators kept disparate tribal groups from fighting.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑January 21st, 2024, 3:45 pm Why do people single out Israel, basically demanding that Jews be scattered again, without a home ("from the river to the sea"), but care NOTHING for ANY of the other wars?

Easy answers: Publicity by anti-Semites whipping up hatred.

I agree.
Consider North Korea: Aren't the North Koreans the most oppressed people in the world? Isn't this country virtually one big concentration camp in the horrible grip of the Kim family's tyranny? Shouldn't Free North Korea! be one of the Woke Left's central concerns, given their obsession with hierarchies of oppression and their love of non-white ethnicities? If you think the Israeli government is a nightmare of domination and oppression, go have a look at the North Korean one!

"Rare footage obtained by BBC Korean shows North Korea publicly sentencing two teenage boys to 12 years of hard labour for watching K-dramas.…"

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68015652

Why do you have to bring "Woke" into it. It's unnecessarily political. If what you say about N.Korea is true, then the rabid right should be as concerned about N.Korea as the loony left are. But the rabid right don't really care abut this issue and bring it up only in an attempt to score some silly political point.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑January 26th, 2024, 2:43 am Why do you have to bring "Woke" into it. It's unnecessarily political.

This is a political issue, and I have to bring the Woke Left into it, because their relentless campaign against the "genocidal apartheid state" of Israel highlights their very selective, double-standard liberationism.

I don't believe it is necessary to bring "Woke" into it. Neither do a I see a relentless campaign by the left against the "genocidal apartheid state" of Israel. It sounds to me like you're just pushing a political agenda. Discuss the situation in the ME, put your views forward, and others will judge your views on their merits. There's no need to bring US politics into it.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑January 26th, 2024, 3:11 am I don't believe it is necessary to bring "Woke" into it. Neither do a I see a relentless campaign by the left against the "genocidal apartheid state" of Israel. It sounds to me like you're just pushing a political agenda.

No, I've just been describing the current political activism of the Woke Left (aka Radical Cultural Left), which is fuelled by antisemitism.
(Being a Leftie myself, I don't equate the Woke Left with the Left in general!)

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑January 26th, 2024, 3:11 amDiscuss the situation in the ME, put your views forward, and others will judge your views on their merits. There's no need to bring US politics into it.

I'm living in Germany, and the Woke Left is active here as well (particularly at universities). See e.g. this!

I did not know that the term "Woke' had migrated outside the US. Still, there's no need to bring German politics into it either. There are good people who vote right and good people who vote left in the US, in Europe and, indeed, in Israel itself. Why do we need to bring politics into a debate on the awful situation in the ME? Isn't it enough to discuss the different views on the conflict in the ME on their merits, without labelling people antisemites on the basis of their political views? I know people on the left and on the right who support Israel. I also know people on the left and on the right who support the Palestinians. And then there are people in the middle who don't know what the hell to make of the situation in the ME. Labelling people whose views we don't like as "antisemites" is unjustified and unhelpful. I am not an antisemite. I am not a racist generally. The Jews and the Palestinians are both semitic peoples. Race has nothing to do with it.

The act of genocide reveals the wretched natures of those countries that support it. Perhaps it is just a coincidence, that those countries are all yesterday's colonial powers, and subjugated by the American/Zionist empire.