Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Lagayascienza]

There is more variation in English within England than there is anywhere else. To say that American or Australian, or any other form mutually comprehensible English, is separate a language in nonsense. I can only imagine that people who say such things are completely ignorant of the science of linguistics. They don't seem to understand the difference between an accent, a dialect, a creole and a language. Some of the nonsense is based in pompous notions of cultural superiority that have no basis in fact.

[Sculptor1]

Hes nay pecking. He scoffed dinner
Has ye done yer haimwork, hen?
Aye done n dusted.

You know, right, that Scotland has its own language, one of the Gaelic tongues, and that many Gaelic 'features' carry over into the way Scots speak the language of the English invaders ("sassenachs")? ["Saesneg" in Welsh.]

Both the Scots and the Welsh mostly speak English. Where Gaelic and Cymraig is spoken it is still spoken mostly as a second language.
None of the references I made are Gaelic or Welsh.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Welsh and Scottish languages have no influence on the variations of English as it is spoken in those countries?

No.
But this just underlines my claim that the "British" language has more variations that the "American" language and that standards for Englsih are more similat than you claim.
The idea that US And UK ENglish should be regarded as Separate is absurd unless you want to sunder Geordie, Brummie, West country ad infinitem..

P.S. I grew up in Wales, and encountered quite a few Welsh people who spoke only one language, and it wasn't English.

You are lying
I lived in the deepest West Wales for over 10 years, and never met a single person who did not also speak English.
The number of people capable of speaking Weslh is still less than 600k and despite spending millions every year on bilinguality number refused to rise.
None of this is so much as relevant, since there is more variation between Geordie, London, West Country and Liverpool than there is across the entire USA, And my examples have not strayed from ENgland.

[Sculptor1]

PS. IN any event you were talking about "BRITISH" English, which does not disclude Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland.

I'm referring to any place where English, as opposed to American, is spoken as a native tongue, or something close to that.

Yes. "British" English Like I said. You definition includes Wales, Scotland and N Ireland.
There is no such thing as "American" , so I assume you mean people speaking English born in the confines of the USA such as myslef.

[Lagayascienza]

The Quebecois of Canada speak French, as do the people of Martinique, Mauritius, Reunion, New Caledonia and many parts of Africa. If you put a person from any one of these places in Paris, they would be understood without a problem. And that is because they would be speaking French, albeit with (perhaps) a particular accent. I know, I lived there and met lots of non-French French speakers. Similarly, most of central and South America speaks Spanish that is comprehensible in Madrid and anywhere else Spanish is spoken.

It's the same with English. This quaint notion that only the present day Brits speak "real" English is ludicrous. I'm an Aussie and whenever I've been in England I had no problem conversing with anyone from the palace to the slums. The idea that I was speaking a different language is preposterous. I also speak French fluently and when I lived in Paris no one ever told me I wasn't speaking French. Just because one is not born in "the Motherland" doesn't mean one is any less proficient in the language of the motherland as the native born.

To assert otherwise stems from a misplaced sense of pompous cultural superiority which demonstrates not superiority but embarrassing ignorance.

[Pattern-chaser]

You are lying

I never lie. I never knowingly tell an untruth. If you post such calumnies again, I will report them.

[Sculptor1]

You are lying

I never lie. I never knowingly tell an untruth. If you post such calumnies again, I will report them.

There are no Weslsh people who only speak CYmraig.
THere might have been 40 years ago, but not any more. Check any census.

[Sy Borg]

There is more variation in English within England than there is anywhere else. To say that American or Australian, or any other form mutually comprehensible English, is separate a language in nonsense. I can only imagine that people who say such things are completely ignorant of the science of linguistics. They don't seem to understand the difference between an accent, a dialect, a creole and a language. Some of the nonsense is based in pompous notions of cultural superiority that have no basis in fact.

I could be wrong but I don't think P-C was entirely serious. My impression was that "it might as well be another language".

I worked on an OH&S helpline for a few years and, thanks to my AS nonsense, I have much difficulty maintaining concentration in real time activities. When people with heavy accent called, at times they might as well not be speaking English ... 'Excuse me?' ... "Sorry?' ... 'Could you please repeat that, sorry' ... sorry, sorry, sorry ... I was always very apologetic haha. I felt for them, having to repeat themselves so much, but I guess it was realistic feedback on how their accent was going.

Did anyone see Brokeback Mountain? If so, did anyone understand what Ennis said without subtitles? Aussie actor, Health Ledger, had mastered Americanese to such an extent that his own countrypersons could not understand him. Talent.

Then again, maybe the issue is mainly in the affectations of some mumbly actors, who overdo the realism like a stage actor might overdo realistic whipering and not be heard?

When I see interviews with regular Americans, north and south, they all seem easy to understand except for very uneducated people in the rural south. In fact, I find British interviewees from the north of England are often harder to understand, and there's a point where the dialects of very uneducated northern Poms are almost completely unintelligible, almost a Scottish brogue.

Due to trade, business and international dealings, wealthy and educated English speakers tend towards a more neutral accent than the middle class, whose accents are less distinctive again than the very broad accents amongst lower classes, which I think are distinctive enough to qualify as dialects, with many words peculiar only to the local area.

[Pattern-chaser]

You are lying

I never lie. I never knowingly tell an untruth. If you post such calumnies again, I will report them.

There are no Weslsh people who only speak CYmraig.
THere might have been 40 years ago, but not any more. Check any census.

I grew up in Wales in the 60s and 70s, which gave me the experience I reported here. This exchange is complete.

[Sculptor1]

You are lying

I never lie. I never knowingly tell an untruth. If you post such calumnies again, I will report them.

There are no Weslsh people who only speak CYmraig.
THere might have been 40 years ago, but not any more. Check any census.

I grew up in Wales in the 60s and 70s, which gave me the experience I reported here. This exchange is complete.

Whereabouts?

[Pattern-chaser]

On the highly-Anglicised North Wales coast. But you only have to put your back to the sea, and travel inland ten miles or so, and you can be in a very different place. My next-door neighbours came from a small village a few miles away. They were bilingual, but their *first* language was Welsh. In their company (I am very far from fluent in Welsh), I encountered people who didn't speak English.

[Pattern-chaser]

I could be wrong but I don't think P-C was entirely serious. My impression was that "it might as well be another language".

Sort of, but I am serious too. In practical terms, Americans have taken control of their language, changed spelling, grammar and usage, and so on.

When I was younger, I got angry that Americans were abusing my language, but I came to see this wasn't, and isn't, so. They are changing *their* language. *My* language is (British) English. Their language grew out of mine. This is a practical truth, not an academically-professional one.

The alternative view is that Americans have taken control of English, and I don't believe this is so. I don't believe it's possible to take control of someone else's language; they will continue to speak and use their language as they always have, probably influenced, but not controlled, by other derivations of their language.

[Sy Borg]

I could be wrong but I don't think P-C was entirely serious. My impression was that "it might as well be another language".

Sort of, but I am serious too. In practical terms, Americans have taken control of their language, changed spelling, grammar and usage, and so on.

When I was younger, I got angry that Americans were abusing my language, but I came to see this wasn't, and isn't, so. They are changing *their* language. *My* language is (British) English. Their language grew out of mine. This is a practical truth, not an academically-professional one.

The alternative view is that Americans have taken control of English, and I don't believe this is so. I don't believe it's possible to take control of someone else's language; they will continue to speak and use their language as they always have, probably influenced, but not controlled, by other derivations of their language.

Rest assured, plenty of us Aussies felt about the same way to see the language being dumbed down. I'm especially snarky that Australian publications have taken up the irrational mm/dd/yy US date convention rather than the logically hierarchic dd/mm/yy. To me 9/11, will always mean 9 November.

Also, using feet for altitude is simply stupid, apparently only kept out of convention. Imagine this conversation:

'Let's go for a walk.'

'How far?'

'30,000 feet.'

'How far is that?'

'9 kilometres.'

'Now I understand. That's a bit far. How about we only walk for 10,000 feet.'

Further, describing a person's weight in pounds is also asinine. Feet (12 in) and stones (14 lbs) are appropriate measures when measuring a persons height or weight, more intuitive than small units like inches, centimetres, pounds and kilograms.

Then again, Britain held onto pounds and pence, and these are obviously more cumbersome and confusing units than decimal currency. I suspect that you Poms hung onto your old currency for much the same reason that the Yanks hung onto imperial measures - identity politics.

Of course, we Aussies just followed one or the other "big brother", as we always do because, we as a nation, stopped having ideas and vision about forty years ago.

[Pattern-chaser]

Then again, Britain held onto pounds and pence, and these are obviously more cumbersome and confusing units than decimal currency.

Point of information (nothing more than that): There are 100 pence in a pound, and have been since February 1971, I remember. Decimal currency.

Apart from that, I don't disagree with what you say in the rest of your post.

[Sy Borg]

Then again, Britain held onto pounds and pence, and these are obviously more cumbersome and confusing units than decimal currency.

Point of information (nothing more than that): There are 100 pence in a pound, and have been since February 1971, I remember. Decimal currency.

Apart from that, I don't disagree with what you say in the rest of your post. 🙂

Ah, I was thinking of pounds in the 1960s - twelve pence to a shilling and, I think, twenty shillings to a pound. I was young back then, with a cognition about as advanced as that of a domesticated pig, so it's all a bit hazy.

[Pattern-chaser]

Then again, Britain held onto pounds and pence, and these are obviously more cumbersome and confusing units than decimal currency.

Point of information (nothing more than that): There are 100 pence in a pound, and have been since February 1971, I remember. Decimal currency.

Ah, I was thinking of pounds in the 1960s - twelve pence to a shilling and, I think, twenty shillings to a pound.

Yes, and there's an interesting alternative perspective on this too. Decimal is all very well, and very convenient for computers, that are more easily programmed to deal with decimal currency. But 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12, while 20 is divisible by 2, 4, 5, 10 and 20.

What has that got to do with anything? It means that amounts of currency are more easily divided into smaller parts, being divisible by all those numbers. An example: I remember buying pocket-money toys for 6/8 — 6 shillings and 8 pence — a third of a pound. LP records cost a pound, while singles were 6/8, three for a pound. Simple convenience.