Philosophy Discussion Forums

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 21st, 2024, 8:11 am Whilst children are usually born with either male or female genitalia, gonads and chromosomes, some are born “intersex” and have both male and female organs and/or chromosomes. In the past, (much less so today) this was often dealt with surgically when the children were babies, but not always; in which case the child was usually raised as male or female. However, most youngsters with gender dysphoria are not intersex but have straight-forward male or female reproductive anatomy and chromosomes.

The term "intersex(uality)" is a misnomer insofar as it wrongly suggests that all intersexuals are not either male or female. Actually, being intersexual merely means being afflicted with some disorder of sexual development or other, which doesn't necessarily mean being both male or female, or being neither male nor female. In fact, most so-called intersexuals are classifiable as either male or female—given the biological standard definition of sex, according to which having (only) gonads with the (not necessarily exercised) function of producing sperm (= testes/testicles) means being male, and having (only) gonads with the (not necessarily exercised) function of producing eggs (= ovaries) means being female.

There are simultaneous hermaphrodites in nature, which are both male and female at the same time; and there are also sequential hermaphrodites, which are male and female at different times. However, homo sapiens is not a species of sequential hermaphrodites; and simultaneous hermaphrodism (qua copresence of testicles and ovaries) is an unnatural, pathological phenomenon among humans, of which there are only a few hundred known cases. (And there is no known case in which both sperm and eggs are produced.)

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 10:15 am Now what about gays and trans? It's clear that maleness and femaleness is not equally distributed amongst us. SOme women make bad mothers and refuse to have children, whilst some men can make better parents than their wifes. Some men weak; some women strong.

There are both feminine males/men and masculine females/women. There is both female masculinity and male femininity. But the basic biological distinction between males/men and females/women isn't thereby blurred at all!

LuckyR wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 12:17 pm We all have an innate sense of self.

What is a self?

Fried Egg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 4:52 pm I'm not disputing the existence of gender norms. But that is not the same as saying one who does not exhibit gender norms must be trans. There are many examples of people who do exhibit non gender typical behaviours but do not believe they are in the wrong body. Likewise, there are people who do not exhibit a-typical gender norms but do regard themselves as being in the wrong body.

You are right! Transsexuality as such is a mental state that doesn't necessarily manifest itself in any overt gender-nonconforming appearance or behavior. There are both non-transsexual transvestites and non-transvestic transsexuals.

Fried Egg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 4:52 pm Not as I understand it. Gender is out sense of whether we're male of female. Not to be confused with our sexuality which is whom we are attracted to.

That's called sexual orientation.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 10:15 am Fried Egg, maybe you are over-thinking this. One's gender identity is determined by the recognition that one is male or female. You recognise that you are male and you gender identity follows from that recognition. You know you are male. That is your gender identity. That's all there is to it.

There is a general distinction between objective identity and subjective identity qua identification. My objective sexual identity simply consists in my maleness; and it is independent of whether or not I "identify as male".

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 10:15 am Fried Egg, maybe you are over-thinking this. One's gender identity is determined by the recognition that one is male or female. You recognise that you are male and you gender identity follows from that recognition. You know you are male. That is your gender identity. That's all there is to it.

There is a general distinction between objective identity and subjective identity qua identification. My objective sexual identity simply consists in my maleness; and it is independent of whether or not I "identify as male".

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 10:55 am

Fried Egg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 4:52 pm Not as I understand it. Gender is our sense of whether we're male or female. Not to be confused with our sexuality which is whom we are attracted to.

I just did a search of the interweb, and found that both variations are used, which only contributes to the confusion.

Speaking of confusion, some say gender is the sense of being male or female (or both male and female, or neither male nor female), whereas others say this sense is gender identity. Gender identity is not the same as gender, is it?

Anyway, concerning the concepts of gender and gender identity, there is "one great blooming, buzzing confusion" (to quote a phrase by William James) even among the gender theorists themselves.

"'Gender' doesn't pick out any one thing; it equivocates among many."

(Briggs, R. A., and B. R. George. What Even Is Gender? New York: Routledge, 2023. p. 5)

"Why would anyone be afraid of gender? In the United States at least, the term has, until recent times, been considered relatively ordinary. We are asked to check a box on a form, and most of us do so without giving it too much thought. Of course, some of us don’t like checking the box, and think that there should be either many more boxes or perhaps none at all; we all feel differently about being called upon to check the gender box. Some suspect that “gender” is a way of discussing women’s inequality or presume that the word is synonymous with “women.” Others think it is a covert way of referring to “homosexuality.” And some presume that “gender” is another way of talking about “sex,” even though certain feminists have distinguished between the two, associating “sex” with either biology or legal assignment at birth, and “gender” with sociocultural forms of becoming. At the same time, feminists and other scholars in gender studies disagree among themselves about which definitions and distinctions are right. The myriad, continuing debates about the word show that no one approach to defining, or understanding, gender reigns."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 3)

In her (or "their"—she's now "nonbinary") new book Butler tells us that…

"Whatever else gender means, it surely names for some a felt sense of the body, in its surfaces and depths, a lived sense of being a body in the world in this way."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 29)

Any questions?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 10:55 am

Fried Egg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 4:52 pm Not as I understand it. Gender is our sense of whether we're male or female. Not to be confused with our sexuality which is whom we are attracted to.

I just did a search of the interweb, and found that both variations are used, which only contributes to the confusion.

Speaking of confusion, some say gender is the sense of being male or female (or both male and female, or neither male nor female), whereas others say this sense is gender identity. Gender identity is not the same as gender, is it?

Anyway, concerning the concepts of gender and gender identity, there is "one great blooming, buzzing confusion" (to quote a phrase by William James) even among the gender theorists themselves.

"'Gender' doesn't pick out any one thing; it equivocates among many."

(Briggs, R. A., and B. R. George. What Even Is Gender? New York: Routledge, 2023. p. 5)

"Why would anyone be afraid of gender? In the United States at least, the term has, until recent times, been considered relatively ordinary. We are asked to check a box on a form, and most of us do so without giving it too much thought. Of course, some of us don’t like checking the box, and think that there should be either many more boxes or perhaps none at all; we all feel differently about being called upon to check the gender box. Some suspect that “gender” is a way of discussing women’s inequality or presume that the word is synonymous with “women.” Others think it is a covert way of referring to “homosexuality.” And some presume that “gender” is another way of talking about “sex,” even though certain feminists have distinguished between the two, associating “sex” with either biology or legal assignment at birth, and “gender” with sociocultural forms of becoming. At the same time, feminists and other scholars in gender studies disagree among themselves about which definitions and distinctions are right. The myriad, continuing debates about the word show that no one approach to defining, or understanding, gender reigns."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 3)

In her (or "their"—she's now "nonbinary") new book Butler tells us that…

"Whatever else gender means, it surely names for some a felt sense of the body, in its surfaces and depths, a lived sense of being a body in the world in this way."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 29)

Any questions?

Clearly, we still do not know enough about the cause(s) of GD. And, therefore, we do not know which, if either, of the developmental, biopsychosocial model or the innate gender identity model of GD is correct. If this is so, and in light of what Littman says above, who could advocate for anything but extreme caution when it comes to transitioning, especially when surgery in relation to minors and teens is being considered? It is one thing for a young person to live as if he/she were the opposite sex, and to be supported in their decision to so live, but it is quite another thing to intervene surgically to complete a transition. Surgical transitioning should only take place with fully informed consent. However, being fully informed, can only occur in adults, IMO. Cases of desistence, and the risk of great harm if surgical intervention turns out to have been inappropriate, speak to the need for extreme caution RRT to transitioning surgery for minors.

As to the question of the OP, in light of what Littman says, I do not think the question can be definitively answered. I now question my own inclination towards the innate model.

Thank you Consul for providing that excerpt from the Littman paper.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 2:28 amClearly, we still do not know enough about the cause(s) of GD. And, therefore, we do not know which, if either, of the developmental, biopsychosocial model or the innate gender identity model of GD is correct.

In my opinion, the latter is incorrect simply because its basic concepts of gender and gender identity are ill-defined.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 26th, 2024, 7:12 pm My understanding is that prospective transpeople have to undergo therapy and assessment for a number of years before they can have major surgery. which makes sense. As for kids destined to be trans, ideally there would be early intervention to help them along, but the risk of treating someone who is just going through a phase may be too high.

Yes, this is the core issue associated with trans people. If the child, and their parents/guardians, are sure the child is trans, early intervention is desirable and necessary. But if, as you say, there is some/any doubt, then such intervention could be significantly harmful. An "innate sense of gender", even if there is one, doesn't seem to help here.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 26th, 2024, 7:20 amBut, whatever the percentage of gay people actually is, it is generally no big deal these days - especially not in the post Christian West. I think it is now generally understood to be mostly genetic. Wiki states that,

There is considerably more evidence supporting nonsocial, biological causes of sexual orientation than social ones, especially for males. There is no substantive evidence which suggests parenting or early childhood experiences play a role with regard to sexual orientation

I suspect it's a similar situation with respect to gender dysmorphia. That is, there is probably a strong biological component and it would have little to do with parenting. This also means that there is little parents can do about it and so trying to bash it out of the kid would be cruel and pointless.

Like homosexuality, we hear a lot more about gender dysphoria these days than we used to. So it probably feels as though it's more prevalent than it actually is.

As to the question of the OP, I'd say, yes, gender identity is probably mostly innate. And, further, that, in a small number of cases, for reasons not yet understood, gender identity does not match a person's actual physical gender or sex.

As I have said, I think that we take the analogy of sexuality and gender too far when there is not strong evidence to support that and some good reasons for treating them differently.

For instance, when people present to their doctor with gender dysphoria, it is essentially self diagnosed (i.e. self identified). Many will suggest that this self diagnosis should not be challenged or questioned in any way, merely affirmed. That's all very well if one finds gender identity and sexuality analogous but I don't think we should do. Gender dysphoria is a serious medical/psychological condition (the precise nature of which is yet to be clearly established) that needs treatment whereas sexuality is not a condition and does not need treatment. It just needs to be accepted and no further action is required.

With gender dysphoria, it suggests the need for a range of possible treatments and also for others in society to make changes to accommodate them. No other serious physiological/psychological conditions do we rely on self diagnosis and affirmation. Given the serious nature of the treatments given to allow a person to "transition" (and the many irreversible effects that are associated) it is important to be sure that we are not presiding over some people being treated for conditions that they don't really have.

I agree, Fried Egg. As I mentioned above, I now question my own inclination towards the innate model. We just do not know enough and, therefore, extreme caution should be used with transitioning, especially where surgery is being considered.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑March 27th, 2024, 4:38 am I agree, Fried Egg. As I mentioned above, I now question my own inclination towards the innate model. We just do not know enough and, therefore, extreme caution should be used with transitioning, especially where surgery is being considered.

Whether or not gender is innate or cultural, a better society would not gender anybody. I call for gender to be as politically incorrect as race.