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A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

Topics are uncensored, meaning even extremely controversial viewpoints can be presented and argued for, but our Forum Rules strictly require all posters to stay on-topic and never engage in ad hominems or personal attacks.


Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
By Halc
#451256
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 16th, 2023, 10:15 amBTW, I am a physicist and a philosopher of science.
This topic is not the product of a physicist. The statement is about as believable as the PhD in your handle, especially given all the childish retorts to other posts.
So, now you claim that an existing physical mass, allegedly, can affect/distort space?
A physicist would have corrected the statement to say that mass distorts spacetime. It doesn't distort space. All of relativity theory (but not the original SR paper) is couched in 4 dimensional spacetime geometry. Minkowski had to rewrite special relativity in terms of geometry before Einstein could proceed with general relativity. This took some learning on Einstein's part.
If space would be made of nothing at all, then it would not exist. Period.
So your assertion of space existing seems to be at odds with your definition of what exists. That seems to be your problem to solve, not the problem of those holding to more conventional definitions. I'm not sure why you find the need to rag on the rest of us just because you've painted yourself into a corner.
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 16th, 2023, 10:42 am However, Albert Einstein provided his definition of time. Can you quote it, please?
I would very much invite you to quote it since I could not find one on the web.
He said plenty about it, but a query for his actual 'definition' turned up nothing particularly relevant. Hawking did his thesis on it.
Sculptor1 wrote: December 16th, 2023, 11:29 amSpace has 4 dimensions.
3 actually. It is spacetime that has 4.
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451259
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 4:52 pm
Can you give me example of anything which exists and is not made of "something" ?
1.
I mentioned an electron above, a decent example. It doesn't seem to be 'composed of a physical substance'.

2.
I would say your thoughts exist, but since they're not composed of a physical substance, perhaps you would not say they exist.
1.
As a physical subatomic quantum particle, electron has physical angular momentum (also popularly called spin), it has physical mass, and it has physical electric charge, and in general electron is made of physical energy.

You should have learnt it at school that the concept of 'physical substance' is not limited to atoms and subatomic particles with mass.

Examples of 'physical substance' are for instance energy, and also fields, like quantum gravity field.


2.
I would say your thoughts exist, but since they're not composed of a physical substance, perhaps you would not say they exist.
If you want to know what I would say, you may ask me instead of assuming whatever suits your agenda best.

Well, I would say that even though my thoughts are not made of a physical substance, nevertheless they obviously exist and are very important to me, because they are made of a non-physical "substance", a "something" called consciousness.
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451260
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 4:52 pm
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 15th, 2023, 2:15 pm when there is a limited empty space in which no event is happening, and neither matter nor energy is present in there, then what?

Spacetime could not possibly be made of events happening in spacetime.
The physics/geometry definition of 'event' is a point in spacetime. You seem to be using a different definition. Spacetime consists of events in exactly the same way that the complex plane consists of the complex numbers. Neither seems to meet your definition of existing: requiring it being 'made of a physical substance'.
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 15th, 2023, 5:22 pm By your more pragmatic definition of what exists, can you tell me how am I being affected by empty space ?
Of course, we can measure space and therefore space does exist.
You answered your own question. Well done. But you also are inconsistent with your definition of what exists, since something whichcan be measured is not necessarily composed of a physical substance.
Did I say that space does not exist ?
Implied in the opening line of the OP, yes, but then you go on to assert that space does exist, and thus conclude that must therefore consist of a physical substance. The rest of the topic seems to be in search of that substance rather than questioning the inconsistency of your assertion of the existence of space and your definition of 'existing'.
We can also simply directly see empty space with our own eyes, without any scientific empirical measurements.
Seeing something with your eyes is an empirical measurement, so this seems to be a direct contradiction.
Furthermore, I cannot even directly see the apple. Light stimulates photo-sensitive regions of my eye and from that I indirectly infer the apple. Just pointing out that 'seeing' anything involves several levels of indirections.
All that said, the comment seems to only serve the purpose of being bait. You don't in any way clarify the way in which you consider yourself to 'directly see empty space'.
Can you give me example of anything which exists and is not made of "something" ?
I mentioned an electron above, a decent example. It doesn't seem to be 'composed of a physical substance'.
Pattern-chaser gave many other examples, things composed of thoughts for instance. I would say your thoughts exist, but since they're not composed of a physical substance, perhaps you would not say they exist.
So, what is empty parking space made of ?

If you think that this is a wrong, or stupid, question then you are free to explain to us why you think so.

Last but not least, there is a Canadian Perimeter Institute's Youtube video titled:

Dr. Fay Dowker PhD Public Lecture - Spacetime Atoms and the Unity of Physics (Perimeter Public Lecture)

If you want to see it, simply google its above title,
or use the following Youtube video handle: .com/watch?v=VhHE86d-Th8
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Sculptor1
#451261
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 6:46 pm
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 16th, 2023, 10:15 amBTW, I am a physicist and a philosopher of science.
This topic is not the product of a physicist. The statement is about as believable as the PhD in your handle, especially given all the childish retorts to other posts.
So, now you claim that an existing physical mass, allegedly, can affect/distort space?
A physicist would have corrected the statement to say that mass distorts spacetime. It doesn't distort space. All of relativity theory (but not the original SR paper) is couched in 4 dimensional spacetime geometry. Minkowski had to rewrite special relativity in terms of geometry before Einstein could proceed with general relativity. This took some learning on Einstein's part.
If space would be made of nothing at all, then it would not exist. Period.
So your assertion of space existing seems to be at odds with your definition of what exists. That seems to be your problem to solve, not the problem of those holding to more conventional definitions. I'm not sure why you find the need to rag on the rest of us just because you've painted yourself into a corner.
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 16th, 2023, 10:42 am However, Albert Einstein provided his definition of time. Can you quote it, please?
I would very much invite you to quote it since I could not find one on the web.
He said plenty about it, but a query for his actual 'definition' turned up nothing particularly relevant. Hawking did his thesis on it.
Sculptor1 wrote: December 16th, 2023, 11:29 amSpace has 4 dimensions.
3 actually. It is spacetime that has 4.
Whatever.
There is no space without a time for it to exist. So even a static space had a "when".
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451262


" It was a speech that changed the way we think of space and time. The year was 1908, and the German mathematician Hermann Minkowski had been trying to make sense of Albert Einstein’s hot new idea – what we now know as special relativity – describing how things shrink as they move faster and time becomes distorted. “Henceforth space by itself and time by itself are doomed to fade into the mere shadows,” Minkowski proclaimed, “and only a union of the two will preserve an independent reality.” And so spacetime – the malleable fabric whose geometry can be changed by the mass of stars, planets and matter – was born. It is a concept that has served us well, but if physicist Petr Horava is right,

spacetime is no more than a mirage.

Horava, who is at the University of California, Berkeley, wants to rip this fabric apart and set time and space free from one another in order to come up with a unified theory that reconciles the disparate worlds of quantum mechanics and gravity – the most pressing challenge to modern physics.

“ Today, the big-bang theory has become the orthodox cosmology. It nevertheless faces a major hurdle in providing a convincing account of how the universe can come to exist from nothing as a result of a physical process. No greater obstacle lies in the path of explanation than the mystery of how time itself can originate naturally. Can science ever encompass the beginning of time within its scope? […] Despite its popularity, the big-bang theory has not been without its detractors. Right from the start, attempts by astronomers to date the age of the Universe ran into trouble. The age kept coming out wrong. There wasn’t enough time for the stars and planets to come into existence. Worse still, there were astronomical objects that seemed to be older than the Universe – an obvious absurdity. Could it be that Einstein’s time and cosmic time are not the same? Is Einstein’s flexible time simply not flexible enough to stretch all the way back to the moment of Universe’s creation? […] Important though Einstein’s time turned out to be, it still did not solve the riddle of time. The time that enters into physical theory, even Einstein’s time, bears only the vaguest resemblance to the subjective time of personal experience, the time that we know, but cannot explain. For a start, Einstein’s time has no arrow. It is blind to the distinction between past and future. Certainly, it doesn’t flow like the time of Shakespeare or James Joyce, or for that matter of Newton. It is easy to conclude that something vital remains missing, some extra quality of time is left out of the equations, or that there is more than one sort of time. The revolution begun by Einstein remains frustratingly unfinished. […] The broad conclusion I reach, however, is that we are far from having a good grasp of the concept of time. Einstein’s work triggered a revolution in our understanding of the subject, but the consequences have yet to be fully worked out. There are major problems which hint at deep-seated limitations of the theory; discrepancies concerning the age of the Universe and obstacles to unifying Einstein’s time with quantum physics are two of the more persistent difficulties. Perhaps more worryingly, Einstein’s time is seriously at odds with time as we humans experience it. All this leads me to believe that we must embrace Einstein’s ideas, but move on.”
— Prof. Paul Davies, About Time: Einstein’s Unfinished Revolution, the Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451268


If you think that my question about empty space is wrong,
or stupid, then you are free to explain to us why you think so.

Last but not least, there is a Canadian Perimeter Institute's Youtube video titled:

Dr. Fay Dowker PhD Public Lecture - Spacetime Atoms and the Unity of Physics (Perimeter Public Lecture)

If you want to see it, simply google its above title,
or use the following Youtube video handle: .com/watch?v=VhHE86d-Th8

Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451269
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 4:52 pm
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 15th, 2023, 2:15 pm

Spacetime could not possibly be made of events happening in spacetime.

The physics/geometry definition of 'event' is a point in spacetime.


The physics definition of 'event' is a point ? :D

You try to equate experimental physics with geometry, pal.
Which school have you graduated from, again ?


OK, then according to your definition, spacetime is made of points.

Are these spacetime points purely mathematical, or physical ?

If spacetime points were physical, then what is their physical size?

What have we learnt at school about the physical properties of a single point of spacetime?

Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#451270
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 4:52 pm All that said, the comment seems to only serve the purpose of being bait.
Yes, clickbait. And not just that comment. Clickbait seems to be what the whole OP seems to be about. Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD posed a question, and then when people give their thoughts on it, the Doctor refuses to give his own thoughts on the question and offers replies with smart ass taunts. Some doctor.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451292
Lagayscienza wrote: December 16th, 2023, 11:05 pm
Halc wrote: December 16th, 2023, 4:52 pm All that said, the comment seems to only serve the purpose of being bait.
Yes, clickbait. And not just that comment. Clickbait seems to be what the whole OP seems to be about. Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD posed a question, and then when people give their thoughts on it, the Doctor refuses to give his own thoughts on the question and offers replies with smart ass taunts. Some doctor.
The sad truth is that you are only interested in yourself and in your own humble opinions. You have not even read everything I posted here, and now you ask me to spoon-feed you ?
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451294
Lagayscienza wrote: December 16th, 2023, 11:05 pm
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD posed a question, and then when people give their thoughts on it, the Doctor refuses to give his own thoughts on the question.
You are all in Love, and in bed, with your own little pet-answers, already.

Why would you need my thoughts on the question?

I have offered you my thoughts on your pet-answers, and you did not like them. :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#451314
Halc's posts are thoughtful and engaging. And, very importantly, polite.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451316
Lagayscienza wrote: December 17th, 2023, 3:28 pm
Halc's posts are thoughtful and engaging. And, very importantly, polite.
But only in your humble subjective opinion, pal. :D

I suspect that you might be made of nothing, to say it politely. :D

Because I don't see any reason why you must be made of something. :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Sculptor1
#451323
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 17th, 2023, 12:50 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 17th, 2023, 9:42 am
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 17th, 2023, 9:04 am
Sculptor1 wrote: December 17th, 2023, 6:42 am

I cannot take you seriously. :D
Nobody takes Halc's pseudo-scientific gobbledygook seriously. :D
Insulting people is against Forum rules.
I merely insulted Halc's ideas as pseudo-scientific gobbledygook
that they are, as opposed to his frequent ad hominem attacks on me,
and on my stellar academic reputation.

Unfortunately, not all ideas and claims made in this topic
are scientifically correct and true.

I've not read his posts.
He just took a pedantic side swipe at me in a post that was directed towards you.
If you feel he has attacked you, then report the post rather than attack back.
Have you been on the forum for long?
User avatar
By Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
#451324
Sculptor1 wrote: December 17th, 2023, 7:37 pm
He just took a pedantic side swipe at me
in a post that was directed towards you.
That's all he can do long pedantic pseudo-scientific side swipes. :D

Sculptor, could the theory of Darwinian evolution be mistaken?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13310&p=451309#p451309

.
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland

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