Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

Right there. That is the moment you inadvertently invoke a teleology. Evolution is not a cause of change it is the result of change. Suffering is not for anything. Like all traits it is a persistent genetic effect which is maintained because the absence of it is less advantageous. Whilst a pain response has helped in the avoidance of harm, real suffering is the useless chronic pain which serves no use whatever. Suffering is deprivation loss, a million other things which teach nothing at all. As I speak I have neck pain from osteoporosis. It serves no purpose. There is nothing I can do about it, except take drugs which have their own problems. All over the world people suffer from fire flood eruptions war famine. None of this has any evolutionary meaning, and such things are repeated again and again by man and nature.

WHat's your point?


No I do not think the "issue of good and evil" is solved. There is no issue, since there is no good and evil. And "Why" can only be an answer made from an intentional agent.
You can ask why did Putin attack Ukraine; or why the West allows the war to continue to its advantage. Only Putin and the arms makers making **** loads of cash can answer that question. But you cannot so easily attribute actions in the war as good or evil, since what is good for one is evil for another.
Why is a dead word. We may ask "how" and answer more effectively. The world is mute to the whys.

I am certainly not trying to argue that suffering is beneficial. That was often the viewpoint advocated in the Christian idea of the 'imitation of Christ', involving picking up one's cross of burdens on a daily basis. In creating the thread I was not intending to present any one specific view of suffering but look at the idea critically, alongside good and evil, as recurrent concepts and themes in philosophy.

You may be right to see evolution as a result of change as opposed to the cause. It is complex though because the idea of natural selection is almost seen by some as an invisible guiding force.

Yes this is a most pernicious and widespread myth. Even scientists fall into the teleology trap.
It is almost as if we as humans are bound to make this mistake, it is a widespread failing and the basis of many religions.
Then, ironically enough people will tend to find some selective advantage in this delusion. Which is laughable since one could far more easily find a prospective selective advantage for avoiding this tendency or trait. Imagine a world where we were able to unpack this, and we have the enlightenment.

One of the writers, who was a Jesuit, Teilhard de Chardin, was inclined to see evolution as an intricate process of becoming and even argued that evolution is not necessarily reached ultimately. This is something I wonder about, although seeing it as a linear process with a goal is questionable. I am not sure that there is a plan, although if there is it is probably beyond human knowledge.

Yes the delusion is pervasive an attractive too.

Suffering is something which should not be underplayed, whether in the form of pain, poverty or war. The difficulties of suffering can be so great that they can lead to suicide or contemplation of it. Suffering involves the physical, psychological, social and political aspects of life. My own approach is to seek to turn suffering in its various forms into something which can be positive. This is partly based on Nassim Taleb's, 'Black Swan' book on unpredictability and seizing the black swans in a way which makes them advantageous.

Having come from a background in mental health care, part of my own interest in suffering is about coping with the psychological aspects. I am aware that suffering, often as a result of stress and trauma, can lead to breakdown, including psychosis and clinical depression. However, the other side of this is that those who have been through a lot often seem deeper and wiser than those who have had an easier time, if they can manage to come through the rough and tough of hard experiences.

Last year my brother died fairly young after about 40 years of taking schizophrenia medication without which he could not have lived any kind of a life with any independence. There is little positive to say about the devastation of a young energetic and once optimistic mind brought down by this scourge. And faced with what could only be described as a primitive and perfunctory psychiatric science which has the tendency to reduce all ailments to some sort of "chemical imbalance".

I don't think that what I am saying is what was picking up one's cross was, which was often about simply putting up with and ensuring pain, almost silently, like a martyr, with no protest or political challenge.

Sorry to hear about your brother and I am aware of the grim predicament of people who experience the condition diagnosed as schizophrenia. When I spoke of people who 'breakthrough' and emerge as stronger I am speaking of a small minority, such as a few people who I know who have experienced a psychotic breakdown and learned so much, such as someone who I know wel who had a psychotic breakdown and was in an psychiatric intensive care unit and he is now a senior tutor in nursing. But, I have definitely seen the other side and how many suffer so much, through the experience of psychosis and the medication given to treat it.

A few months ago I remember discussion with you about the cardio-metabolic syndrome and there does appear to be a clear link between antipsychotic medication and this. While most of the older antipsychotics had the, extrapyramidal, movement problems, some of the newer ones like Olanzapine and Clozapine lead to tremendous weight gain which seems to trigger so many other potential physical problems, including type 2 diabetes. Many people don't wish to take their medication because they are aware of side-effects, especially the weight gain.

My own interest in the problem of suffering was originally based on knowing a number of people with serious mental health problems, including people who committed suicide. I felt that losing 3 friends to suicide in a short space of about 3-4 years to be my own personal experience of suffering. One of these 3 had missed his antipsychotic medication and was smoking cannabis. So, the problem of medication or not having it are complex.

I definitely don't wish to romanticize suffering, and in a way, some of the existentialist outsiders, like Camus, Nietzsche and Sartre may contribute towards this. I read Colin Wilson's ' The Outsider' and found it so significant but there is a danger of misery and suffering being glamourised, especially by angry young men. The reality of those who are going through the depths of mental pain is far from romantic.

I guess my own wish to see the positive in suffering is partly based on reading, such as the ideas of Victor Frankl. Having been in a Nazi concentration camp he speaks of how people could find meaning amidst suffering. However, it may be extremely difficult to live with physical, emotional or mental suffering.

Finally, I did notice that you mentioned schizophrenia being seen as a chemical disorder. That has been the view of some, who try to reduce it to genetics and neuroscience. But, that is open to question. In some cases, people who experience schizophrenia link it to early life experiences. In addition, it can encompass so many of the existential aspects of life, including issues to do with sexual expression and ideas about religion, and even ideas about good and evil.

Yes my brother died of heart and breathing problems, he gained weight too. Clozapine wrecked his body.
Mental illness is a very wide field. WHen I said "chemical imbalance" was reductive I mean to pour scorn on the pretense that they have found "the cause". When in fact they have just described another aspect of the illness. You have to ask how else would it appear in the brain? What you do not have is the conundrum; did the imbalance lead to the illness or does the illness lead to the imbalance?
THe vast majority of mental illness is caused by the stresses of the lived experience such as unresolved traumas, and losses. They may well appear as a chemical imbalance, and drug companies are only too eager to supply a pill which can mask that imbalance. But what is most effective is the sort of expensive and time consuming treatments that include unpacking those trauma through talking, CBT and group therapies. Most mental illnesses are not because of valium, propranolol or other deficiencies. Though those drugs can help the symptoms they cannot be a real solution.
However schizophrenia is not "most" mental illness. I'll not say drugs cannot help but they are far from a solution, and the other therapies might introduce coping mechanisms but schizophrenia is too profound and little understood a problem for it to be solvable.

What triggered it could have been things that happened to us as boys, god knows we had some rough times, and Mitch being the older may well have taken more on board.
Though this would not answer other cases. There is something which may be significant. Mitch was born with a large birthmark over his eye. Back on the late 1950s they did not have so much appreciation of the dangers of radiation. Mitch had his face irradiated over period of time to kill the birthmark. The treatment was successful, but I have always wondered what harm that may have done to a growing young brain.

[JackDaydream]

I am certainly not trying to argue that suffering is beneficial. That was often the viewpoint advocated in the Christian idea of the 'imitation of Christ', involving picking up one's cross of burdens on a daily basis. In creating the thread I was not intending to present any one specific view of suffering but look at the idea critically, alongside good and evil, as recurrent concepts and themes in philosophy.

You may be right to see evolution as a result of change as opposed to the cause. It is complex though because the idea of natural selection is almost seen by some as an invisible guiding force.

Yes this is a most pernicious and widespread myth. Even scientists fall into the teleology trap.
It is almost as if we as humans are bound to make this mistake, it is a widespread failing and the basis of many religions.
Then, ironically enough people will tend to find some selective advantage in this delusion. Which is laughable since one could far more easily find a prospective selective advantage for avoiding this tendency or trait. Imagine a world where we were able to unpack this, and we have the enlightenment.

One of the writers, who was a Jesuit, Teilhard de Chardin, was inclined to see evolution as an intricate process of becoming and even argued that evolution is not necessarily reached ultimately. This is something I wonder about, although seeing it as a linear process with a goal is questionable. I am not sure that there is a plan, although if there is it is probably beyond human knowledge.

Yes the delusion is pervasive an attractive too.

Suffering is something which should not be underplayed, whether in the form of pain, poverty or war. The difficulties of suffering can be so great that they can lead to suicide or contemplation of it. Suffering involves the physical, psychological, social and political aspects of life. My own approach is to seek to turn suffering in its various forms into something which can be positive. This is partly based on Nassim Taleb's, 'Black Swan' book on unpredictability and seizing the black swans in a way which makes them advantageous.

Having come from a background in mental health care, part of my own interest in suffering is about coping with the psychological aspects. I am aware that suffering, often as a result of stress and trauma, can lead to breakdown, including psychosis and clinical depression. However, the other side of this is that those who have been through a lot often seem deeper and wiser than those who have had an easier time, if they can manage to come through the rough and tough of hard experiences.

Last year my brother died fairly young after about 40 years of taking schizophrenia medication without which he could not have lived any kind of a life with any independence. There is little positive to say about the devastation of a young energetic and once optimistic mind brought down by this scourge. And faced with what could only be described as a primitive and perfunctory psychiatric science which has the tendency to reduce all ailments to some sort of "chemical imbalance".

I don't think that what I am saying is what was picking up one's cross was, which was often about simply putting up with and ensuring pain, almost silently, like a martyr, with no protest or political challenge.

Sorry to hear about your brother and I am aware of the grim predicament of people who experience the condition diagnosed as schizophrenia. When I spoke of people who 'breakthrough' and emerge as stronger I am speaking of a small minority, such as a few people who I know who have experienced a psychotic breakdown and learned so much, such as someone who I know wel who had a psychotic breakdown and was in an psychiatric intensive care unit and he is now a senior tutor in nursing. But, I have definitely seen the other side and how many suffer so much, through the experience of psychosis and the medication given to treat it.

A few months ago I remember discussion with you about the cardio-metabolic syndrome and there does appear to be a clear link between antipsychotic medication and this. While most of the older antipsychotics had the, extrapyramidal, movement problems, some of the newer ones like Olanzapine and Clozapine lead to tremendous weight gain which seems to trigger so many other potential physical problems, including type 2 diabetes. Many people don't wish to take their medication because they are aware of side-effects, especially the weight gain.

My own interest in the problem of suffering was originally based on knowing a number of people with serious mental health problems, including people who committed suicide. I felt that losing 3 friends to suicide in a short space of about 3-4 years to be my own personal experience of suffering. One of these 3 had missed his antipsychotic medication and was smoking cannabis. So, the problem of medication or not having it are complex.

I definitely don't wish to romanticize suffering, and in a way, some of the existentialist outsiders, like Camus, Nietzsche and Sartre may contribute towards this. I read Colin Wilson's ' The Outsider' and found it so significant but there is a danger of misery and suffering being glamourised, especially by angry young men. The reality of those who are going through the depths of mental pain is far from romantic.

I guess my own wish to see the positive in suffering is partly based on reading, such as the ideas of Victor Frankl. Having been in a Nazi concentration camp he speaks of how people could find meaning amidst suffering. However, it may be extremely difficult to live with physical, emotional or mental suffering.

Finally, I did notice that you mentioned schizophrenia being seen as a chemical disorder. That has been the view of some, who try to reduce it to genetics and neuroscience. But, that is open to question. In some cases, people who experience schizophrenia link it to early life experiences. In addition, it can encompass so many of the existential aspects of life, including issues to do with sexual expression and ideas about religion, and even ideas about good and evil.

Yes my brother died of heart and breathing problems, he gained weight too. Clozapine wrecked his body.
Mental illness is a very wide field. WHen I said "chemical imbalance" was reductive I mean to pour scorn on the pretense that they have found "the cause". When in fact they have just described another aspect of the illness. You have to ask how else would it appear in the brain? What you do not have is the conundrum; did the imbalance lead to the illness or does the illness lead to the imbalance?
THe vast majority of mental illness is caused by the stresses of the lived experience such as unresolved traumas, and losses. They may well appear as a chemical imbalance, and drug companies are only too eager to supply a pill which can mask that imbalance. But what is most effective is the sort of expensive and time consuming treatments that include unpacking those trauma through talking, CBT and group therapies. Most mental illnesses are not because of valium, propranolol or other deficiencies. Though those drugs can help the symptoms they cannot be a real solution.
However schizophrenia is not "most" mental illness. I'll not say drugs cannot help but they are far from a solution, and the other therapies might introduce coping mechanisms but schizophrenia is too profound and little understood a problem for it to be solvable.

What triggered it could have been things that happened to us as boys, god knows we had some rough times, and Mitch being the older may well have taken more on board.
Though this would not answer other cases. There is something which may be significant. Mitch was born with a large birthmark over his eye. Back on the late 1950s they did not have so much appreciation of the dangers of radiation. Mitch had his face irradiated over period of time to kill the birthmark. The treatment was successful, but I have always wondered what harm that may have done to a growing young brain.

I am extremely familiar with the use and potential problems of Clozapine. The friend who I spoke of who carries a Bible around with her was almost put on Clozapine. Despite psychotic experiences of thinking that she was the devil she was aware of the dangers of Clozapine. I am aware of how some individuals claim that Clozapine has made such a profound difference to life. I also remember watching a video made by a drug company promoting it as a 'wonder drug'. It is often used as an intervention for those who fail to get a response to the typical antipsychotics, but it can also only be given to people who are willing to comply with the blood test monitoring. When I was last working in psychiatric care one aspect which had become a focus, was the significance of constipation in connection with the heart. Part of the problem may be that research is limited, which is particularly important when people are expected to take a form of medication on a long term basis.

The whole area of trying to find a cause for schizophrenia is especially complicated. There was the dopamine hypothesis as an aspect of neuro chemistry. The physical aspects may involve so many factors. I do read in the field of alternative and holistic medicine and have read of various speculations ranging from chemical and food allergies to suggestions about inflammatory processes in the brain. It may be that a lot more research is needed. It is indeed questionable what radiation which your brother, Mitch, received could have done to a developing brain.

The bio- psychosocial model may be important, especially in relation to the role of trauma and early life experiences. The difficulties may impact upon emotional and chemical pathways of the brain. It is also interesting to consider in what ways problems can be resolved at a later stage. Medication is probably important but limited. Forms of therapy and CBT are definitely important, especially in thinking about the chemical wiring of the brain in relation to cognitions.

However, I don't wish to go off topic in my own thread, and I do read a lot in the area of critical psychiatry and may even write a thread on such an area at some point. However, it is a fairly sensitive area for online discussion, but relating back to the thread topic, the whole area of 'mental illness' and its treatment points to the way in which suffering is a complex area, and how simplistic explanations, especially in relation to the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' as black and white oppositions are inadequate in thinking about the nature of human experiences critically.

[Pattern-chaser]

Good and evil are the result of human value judgements. The judgmental aspect remains, perhaps, the core of the matter, not the dance. I think...

Otherwise, we might comment directly on the path that life takes, and not simply render judgement with our arrogant and meaningless verdicts.

You mention maturity in the text I didn't quote: isn't judging (parts of) the universe itself a great example of the immaturity you (rightly, IMO) assign to humanity?

Yep, a subjective judgement. To a herd of elephants, a poacher is evil. To the poacher's wife, rangers who try to save wildlife are evil, standing in the way of their family's welfare.

I like the idea of simply observing what's going on without laying value judgements on everything, although in a social environment that is largely constructed on judgements, it is isolating and challenging to swim against a strong tide.

I think it's also fair to observe that being autistic can offer a perspective on this that allistics might not find, see or appreciate. That doesn't make any of us right or wrong, of course. It's not like we're discussing good or evil, eh?

I'm too lazy to check but will take your word for it that I have at some point erred or contradicted myself. Note that when I say humanity is immature, that includes me. I'm no more mature than the other schleps around me, and probably less mature than plenty of them. So, sure, I will unwisely judge others at times, speaking as if we weren't all fellow travellers on Spaceship Earth, and in that I reflect the still-developing world around me.

I'm not aware of your having contradicted yourself. I only agreed with you. On a more positive note, at 68yo I am approaching maturity, I suspect (and hope). One day I might even reach that fabled goal!

[Pattern-chaser]

There is a lot of talk here about a reason for suffering to exist. While a specific instance of suffering my not be explained in the context of which it occurs, there are some pretty interesting arguments for why suffering as a human experience might exist. As @JackDaydream pointed our

"... it is possible that pain and suffering have an initiating role in evolution in bringing about innovation and change."

There are many philosophical models supporting the idea that mind precedes physical reality. For instance, metaphysical Idealism is the conjecture that mind creates reality. The Hypothesis of Formative Causation is the argument that biological organisms are organized according to a species-wide "Nature's Habit via morphogenesis. In that, Nature's Habit is evolved based on successful adaptations to environmental challenges. That is in agreement with Metaphysical Idealism. https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance

As an engineer, it is necessary to consider as many factors as possible when modeling a new system. Failure to account for a input can blind the engineer to an unexpected output. Shoddy engineering can kill people.

It seems necessary to bound a cosmological model of reality based on Metaphysical Idealism by stipulating that the initial condition of reality was something like curiosity. From that comes a sort of prime directive to satisfy that curiosity that might be an idealism equivalent of biological survival instincts. Such a model can be expanded in different ways. In my view, @JackDaydream has spelled out the most reasonable objective of suffering. That is, it may be impossible to gain understanding in a steady-state environment. If life was perfect, there would be little impetus to learn, and therefore, evolve understanding to answer curiosity.

A companion concept to satisfying curiosity is what I refer to as Perceptual Agreement. Current speculation in consciousness studies is that we develop perception based on prepressing sensed information according to worldview. Following the idea of Metaphysical Idealism, we limit our ability to experience actual reality based on the inaccuracy of our worldview. If this is correct, an evolutionary result of gaining understanding would be more lucid Perceptual Agreement.

People are first guided by human instincts. A person can live all of life and never look beyond the horizon of what he or she has been taught. The reason I find Strict Dualism so useful is that those urges to look beyond the horizon I spontaneously sense make sense if I allow that at least some of my mind is first guided by discerning intellect.

There is a host of reported human experiences that should be factored into a cosmological model of reality. Suffering is just one of them. From suffering might come most important realizations about self.

What an interesting post! I regret that I don't have an equally interesting response, but maybe that will come, in time, as I digest what I've read...

[JackDaydream]

I think that suffering, good and evil is inherent within all people and the nature of it affects the way in which we live our lives. I feel that everyone has the potential to be evil, but most people choose to be good. Too often people are led to believe that there are moral absolutes when actually there is no such thing as a "good" or "bad" person, just humans choosing both good and bad things at times. It influences my philosophy by helping me understand that suffering itself is not an individual tragedy or bad thing. Instead, suffering is part of life from birth, which every human being has to experience as part of a bigger picture. Thus, it shows us that all humans have to struggle and overcome hardships in order to gain knowledge about ourselves, other people’s struggles, and morality. The hope in ultimately reaching “the end game” where we will all be at peace with our experiences.

I have just come across your response and it is interesting to think about how the experiences of suffering fit into the larger picture. As it is we are subjective beings with the limits of epistemology and human understanding. Shakespeare and other literary figures often spoke of tragedy and comedy, which in itself involves a bias and there may be so much in between, especially the tragicomic.

As far as being at peace with ourselves, there can sometimes be the extremes of guilt and 'beating oneself up'. Some may find shortcuts, especially in the projection of evil onto others, as scapegoats. Figures such as Hitler and Saddam Hussein, may be identified as the 'evil' ones. This may be an attempt to rid oneself of evil. Of course, as you suggest, life involves hardships, so the search for some kind of balance or peace probably involves a mixture of living with moral imperfections and a daily life of experiences which are not completely oppressive. In that sense the idea of good and evil involves both the practical, including physical, emotional and moral aspects of human suffering.

[JackDaydream]

I have just been thinking about the way in which in Hinduism evil is sometimes viewed as an illusion. This is worth thinking about rather than simply seeing the problem of evil according to Christianity. Some thinkers in Christianity, such as John Hick, saw evil in relation to the idea of free will. This was about seeing it as necessary to the human free will and making choices, especially moral ones.

The Hindu and other Eastern approaches see the illusory nature of concepts. It may go back to the idea of good and evil as constructs. The only problem is that in such an analysis the issue of suffering and pain may be negated in such a way which is incongruent with life experiences. Any thoughts?

[Tom Butler]

The Hindu and other Eastern approaches see the illusory nature of concepts. It may go back to the idea of good and evil as constructs. The only problem is that in such an analysis the issue of suffering and pain may be negated in such a way which is incongruent with life experiences. Any thoughts?

Is that "illusory" as in imagined or "illusory" as in intangible? For instance a thoughtform is nonphysical and could be considered illusion from a physical perspective but would be considered at least momentarily very real to the thinker.

[Sy Borg]

I think it's also fair to observe that being autistic can offer a perspective on this that allistics might not find, see or appreciate. That doesn't make any of us right or wrong, of course. It's not like we're discussing good or evil, eh? 😁

Well, at least we tend to be less proud than most. We start getting any notions of self-worth beaten out of us in high school, and then workplaces continues to remind us that we are lesser. Not to mention social situations :lol:

Being crapped upon has one major benefit. It forces you to think. Why is this happening to me? Why are other people doing better? What are they doing differently to me? Or is that an illusion and they are just as much of a disaster zone internally and hiding it? Then it comes down to life sucking and wondering what the point of it all is.

Actually, my guess is that a high percentage of those interested in philosophy have undergone significant trauma in their tender years. Why bother with philosophy if everything is peachy, right? Just go out there, professionally upwardly mobile, good relationships, marriage, family, etc. But when things go wrong ... which of course is why Catholicism is so obsessed with suffering, and so very excellent at inducing suffering in its flocks, especially children, with threats of eternal hellfire for seemingly trivial acts and, well, Pell and his tribes of protected paedo priests.

I'm too lazy to check but will take your word for it that I have at some point erred or contradicted myself. Note that when I say humanity is immature, that includes me. I'm no more mature than the other schleps around me, and probably less mature than plenty of them. So, sure, I will unwisely judge others at times, speaking as if we weren't all fellow travellers on Spaceship Earth, and in that I reflect the still-developing world around me.

I'm not aware of your having contradicted yourself. I only agreed with you. On a more positive note, at 68yo I am approaching maturity, I suspect (and hope). One day I might even reach that fabled goal! 😃

Oh ok. I thought you were chipping me for judging others, while bloviating about how we Earthlings are all in this together. Which would have been fair.

We are all are very, very long way from the maturity I'm taking about. Maturity starts when we humans no longer need to kill, displace or exploit other life forms - and each other - to survive and thrive. I think that a whole new chapter will start then, with minds being freed from physical concerns.

[JackDaydream]

The Hindu and other Eastern approaches see the illusory nature of concepts. It may go back to the idea of good and evil as constructs. The only problem is that in such an analysis the issue of suffering and pain may be negated in such a way which is incongruent with life experiences. Any thoughts?

Is that "illusory" as in imagined or "illusory" as in intangible? For instance a thoughtform is nonphysical and could be considered illusion from a physical perspective but would be considered at least momentarily very real to the thinker.

The question of what is illusory is a very important one, because the concept may often be used in a dismissive way, without clarity of what an illusion is. It is connected to the way 'reality' is perceived, which is open to a lot of interpretation. Often, in the current climate of thinking 'reality' is equated with the philosophy of realism, naturalism and physicalism. I am not sure it is that simple because I see the psyche itself as a form of 'reality'. This has bearing on thinking about good and evil, probably meaning that which is outside oneself is dependent on mental conceptions. So, on that basis I would probably interpret the Hindu idea of evil as being an illusion to mean that it is not an objective aspect of life outside of human consciousness but bound up with inner reality and meaning.

[Belindi]

Natural selection does not work unless suffering is part of the equation. Creator God and Nature are the same.

[JackDaydream]

Natural selection does not work unless suffering is part of the equation. Creator God and Nature are the same.

That was what I was thinking when I was writing a response to Sculptor1 yesterday. I have seen a parallel between the idea of a Creator God and Nature and this is partly why I see the ongoing heated debate between theists and atheists to be overblown. To some extent it seems to be a choice of terms or framing and this was argued by the writer on comparative religion, Huston Smith, who saw atheist, and theism, in its anthropomorphic conception, as both being partial. It does seem that people often see ideas in a very dualistic way rather than underlying convergence between the different choices of words, including nature and God. Natural selection may involve errors just as human beings make mistakes in the overall consideration of the nature of 'evil' in the overall scheme of life.

[Sculptor1]

Yes this is a most pernicious and widespread myth. Even scientists fall into the teleology trap.
It is almost as if we as humans are bound to make this mistake, it is a widespread failing and the basis of many religions.
Then, ironically enough people will tend to find some selective advantage in this delusion. Which is laughable since one could far more easily find a prospective selective advantage for avoiding this tendency or trait. Imagine a world where we were able to unpack this, and we have the enlightenment.

Yes the delusion is pervasive an attractive too.

Last year my brother died fairly young after about 40 years of taking schizophrenia medication without which he could not have lived any kind of a life with any independence. There is little positive to say about the devastation of a young energetic and once optimistic mind brought down by this scourge. And faced with what could only be described as a primitive and perfunctory psychiatric science which has the tendency to reduce all ailments to some sort of "chemical imbalance".

Sorry to hear about your brother and I am aware of the grim predicament of people who experience the condition diagnosed as schizophrenia. When I spoke of people who 'breakthrough' and emerge as stronger I am speaking of a small minority, such as a few people who I know who have experienced a psychotic breakdown and learned so much, such as someone who I know wel who had a psychotic breakdown and was in an psychiatric intensive care unit and he is now a senior tutor in nursing. But, I have definitely seen the other side and how many suffer so much, through the experience of psychosis and the medication given to treat it.

A few months ago I remember discussion with you about the cardio-metabolic syndrome and there does appear to be a clear link between antipsychotic medication and this. While most of the older antipsychotics had the, extrapyramidal, movement problems, some of the newer ones like Olanzapine and Clozapine lead to tremendous weight gain which seems to trigger so many other potential physical problems, including type 2 diabetes. Many people don't wish to take their medication because they are aware of side-effects, especially the weight gain.

My own interest in the problem of suffering was originally based on knowing a number of people with serious mental health problems, including people who committed suicide. I felt that losing 3 friends to suicide in a short space of about 3-4 years to be my own personal experience of suffering. One of these 3 had missed his antipsychotic medication and was smoking cannabis. So, the problem of medication or not having it are complex.

I definitely don't wish to romanticize suffering, and in a way, some of the existentialist outsiders, like Camus, Nietzsche and Sartre may contribute towards this. I read Colin Wilson's ' The Outsider' and found it so significant but there is a danger of misery and suffering being glamourised, especially by angry young men. The reality of those who are going through the depths of mental pain is far from romantic.

I guess my own wish to see the positive in suffering is partly based on reading, such as the ideas of Victor Frankl. Having been in a Nazi concentration camp he speaks of how people could find meaning amidst suffering. However, it may be extremely difficult to live with physical, emotional or mental suffering.

Finally, I did notice that you mentioned schizophrenia being seen as a chemical disorder. That has been the view of some, who try to reduce it to genetics and neuroscience. But, that is open to question. In some cases, people who experience schizophrenia link it to early life experiences. In addition, it can encompass so many of the existential aspects of life, including issues to do with sexual expression and ideas about religion, and even ideas about good and evil.

Yes my brother died of heart and breathing problems, he gained weight too. Clozapine wrecked his body.
Mental illness is a very wide field. WHen I said "chemical imbalance" was reductive I mean to pour scorn on the pretense that they have found "the cause". When in fact they have just described another aspect of the illness. You have to ask how else would it appear in the brain? What you do not have is the conundrum; did the imbalance lead to the illness or does the illness lead to the imbalance?
THe vast majority of mental illness is caused by the stresses of the lived experience such as unresolved traumas, and losses. They may well appear as a chemical imbalance, and drug companies are only too eager to supply a pill which can mask that imbalance. But what is most effective is the sort of expensive and time consuming treatments that include unpacking those trauma through talking, CBT and group therapies. Most mental illnesses are not because of valium, propranolol or other deficiencies. Though those drugs can help the symptoms they cannot be a real solution.
However schizophrenia is not "most" mental illness. I'll not say drugs cannot help but they are far from a solution, and the other therapies might introduce coping mechanisms but schizophrenia is too profound and little understood a problem for it to be solvable.

What triggered it could have been things that happened to us as boys, god knows we had some rough times, and Mitch being the older may well have taken more on board.
Though this would not answer other cases. There is something which may be significant. Mitch was born with a large birthmark over his eye. Back on the late 1950s they did not have so much appreciation of the dangers of radiation. Mitch had his face irradiated over period of time to kill the birthmark. The treatment was successful, but I have always wondered what harm that may have done to a growing young brain.

I am extremely familiar with the use and potential problems of Clozapine. The friend who I spoke of who carries a Bible around with her was almost put on Clozapine. Despite psychotic experiences of thinking that she was the devil she was aware of the dangers of Clozapine. I am aware of how some individuals claim that Clozapine has made such a profound difference to life. I also remember watching a video made by a drug company promoting it as a 'wonder drug'. It is often used as an intervention for those who fail to get a response to the typical antipsychotics, but it can also only be given to people who are willing to comply with the blood test monitoring. When I was last working in psychiatric care one aspect which had become a focus, was the significance of constipation in connection with the heart. Part of the problem may be that research is limited, which is particularly important when people are expected to take a form of medication on a long term basis.

The whole area of trying to find a cause for schizophrenia is especially complicated. There was the dopamine hypothesis as an aspect of neuro chemistry. The physical aspects may involve so many factors. I do read in the field of alternative and holistic medicine and have read of various speculations ranging from chemical and food allergies to suggestions about inflammatory processes in the brain. It may be that a lot more research is needed. It is indeed questionable what radiation which your brother, Mitch, received could have done to a developing brain.

The bio- psychosocial model may be important, especially in relation to the role of trauma and early life experiences. The difficulties may impact upon emotional and chemical pathways of the brain. It is also interesting to consider in what ways problems can be resolved at a later stage. Medication is probably important but limited. Forms of therapy and CBT are definitely important, especially in thinking about the chemical wiring of the brain in relation to cognitions.

However, I don't wish to go off topic in my own thread, and I do read a lot in the area of critical psychiatry and may even write a thread on such an area at some point. However, it is a fairly sensitive area for online discussion, but relating back to the thread topic, the whole area of 'mental illness' and its treatment points to the way in which suffering is a complex area, and how simplistic explanations, especially in relation to the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' as black and white oppositions are inadequate in thinking about the nature of human experiences critically.

My brother resisted Clozapine for a long while; "they aint sticking no needle in me". But his previous regime was not working. Despite the problems it did give him a life, and was a vast improvement to his 3 drug cocktail based on chlorpromazine, procyclidine and another, which he'd been on for 15 years.
Maybe had he received timely counselling when it struck things would have been different.

Here's where evil comes in..
In times gone by my brother would have been considered as evil being possessed of evil spirits. In non Christian cultures he might have enjoyed the life of a seer and hermit. People who go to him as he was touched by the spirits.
Were his mental illness have led him to "evil" deeds, would he be blameless, or would he have had to accept the consequences of his actions? Luckily he was perfectly law abiding and gentle, but in so many cases mental health sufferers often go off the rails. Where then is evil?

Today's evil is people who, protecting their narrowly focused interest in either the talking therapy or neurochemistry or pharmacology or correctional facilities, claim that their methods are going to solve the problem.

[Pattern-chaser]

As far as being at peace with ourselves, there can sometimes be the extremes of guilt and 'beating oneself up'. Some may find shortcuts, especially in the projection of evil onto others, as scapegoats. Figures such as Hitler and Saddam Hussein, may be identified as the 'evil' ones. This may be an attempt to rid oneself of evil.

Yes, this chimes with the child-killer thing. When children kill other children, or adults kill children, we say they are "monsters", possibly/probably damaged at or before birth, etc., etc. That way, we don't have to admit that we, our children, or 'normal' people 'like us', could ever do such a thing. It's a way, in this case, of shrugging off any responsibility or contribution *we* might have made to what happened.

My take on this is that there are no 'monsters'. There are just human beings, who can get up to wonderful things, but also really terrible things too. If we are proud of the former, we must at least admit some 'ownership' of the latter, I think.

[Pattern-chaser]

We are all are very, very long way from the maturity I'm taking about. Maturity starts when we humans no longer need to kill, displace or exploit other life forms - and each other - to survive and thrive. I think that a whole new chapter will start then, with minds being freed from physical concerns.

I'm happy to report that I have reached a stage where I "no longer need to kill, displace or exploit other life forms to survive and thrive", excepting only that I'm not a vegan. But you're right, I (and 'we') have a long way to go. They say it's the journey that matters, though, not the destination, don't they?

[Tom Butler]

So, on that basis I would probably interpret the Hindu idea of evil as being an illusion to mean that it is not an objective aspect of life outside of human consciousness but bound up with inner reality and meaning.

That seems reasonable. As a "shade tree philosopher," I have observed that ancient wisdom like the Hermetica and Upanishad, not so ancient wisdom like the Bible and contemporary teachers tend to translate understanding of the past based on a cultural filter. At the same time, many of the different translations circle basic truths .. sometimes even converging on them.

This cultural contamination of metaphysical concepts seems to mimic how an individual person develops perception based on what the person has been taught is true. That goes back to the idea that evil is in the eye of the beholder. It is that idea of cultural contamination that has taken me to emphasis the need to examine the implications of what we think is true.

If we think of our cultural worldview as a chaotic system, that system's attractor is the actual. As a seeker, I suspect this physical venue for learning would be broken if we, as a community, completely embraced the actual.

But it seems necessary to give people a way out. Some people's temperament leads them to join the herd. However, some people will destroy the herd if it is necessary to get closer to the actual. Having a trusted teacher like the Upanishad and the Vedas to provide guidance toward realizing the actual can be a gift to society by way of enlightenment of those more inquisitive seekers. If we cannot perceive that which we do not understand, it is our contemporary philosophical rebels who are best equipped to turn our cultural worldview closer to the actual.

In my view, society would benefit by promoting forums like this with a mind toward encouraging a more contemporary take on the actual. But to be sure, the last thing we need as a society is another holy teacher.