Philosophy Discussion Forums

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:30 am
Yes, to the office. To the shops. To friends' places. To do errands. Australians are far more concentrated in major cities than Americans. I have seen many thousands of SUVs this year. In that time I saw one with mud and some wear, that was not shiny and pristine.

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:13 pm

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

I don't know much about it, bu I assume that's also bad for the environment. Three cars!? That's a lot of steel (which takes energy to mine), rubber, etc. Maybe it's better than driving only their pick-up, but it's still over-consumption. Clearly, they should be taxed more heavily so they can't afford it! Or they could join my collective and own zero cars (or 1/10,000 of 50,000 cars).

Ecurb wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 2:25 pm

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:13 pm

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

I don't know much about it, bu I assume that's also bad for the environment. Three cars!? That's a lot of steel (which takes energy to mine), rubber, etc. Maybe it's better than driving only their pick-up, but it's still over-consumption. Clearly, they should be taxed more heavily so they can't afford it! Or they could join my collective and own zero cars (or 1/10,000 of 50,000 cars).

Well efficiency is only one variable. SUVs on average are about 37% less efficient than sedans (35 vs 22 mpg), but our family drives about 50% less total miles per year than average. So we emit less CO2 than our sedan driving neighbors.

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:13 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:30 am
Yes, to the office. To the shops. To friends' places. To do errands. Australians are far more concentrated in major cities than Americans. I have seen many thousands of SUVs this year. In that time I saw one with mud and some wear, that was not shiny and pristine.

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

Amazing how they manage to wash off the bumps and scrapes that always happen when you drive in the wild. Must be great car wash. I would say about 5% go bush bashing, at most. I know dozens of owners of these cars, and they don't go on camping trips. Almost always, they drive to see family. Urban people don't suddenly turn into Bear Grilles when they buy an SUV. No they still go to work, go to the shops, take the kids to school and sport.

Most people do not need to own a truck, as has been the case throughout modern history. These vehicles are absolutely not necessary for most, they are having a material impact on climate change and ruining urban spaces designed for cars, not trucks.

Still, it doesn't matter what anyone says, free society as we know it is doomed and this is just one of many signs making clear that humans are incapable of adapting intelligently to changing conditions, just like any other dumb animal.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 3:25 pm

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:13 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:30 am
Yes, to the office. To the shops. To friends' places. To do errands. Australians are far more concentrated in major cities than Americans. I have seen many thousands of SUVs this year. In that time I saw one with mud and some wear, that was not shiny and pristine.

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

Amazing how they manage to wash off the bumps and scrapes that always happen when you drive in the wild. Must be great car wash. I would say about 5% go bush bashing, at most. I know dozens of owners of these cars, and they don't go on camping trips. Almost always, they drive to see family. Urban people don't suddenly turn into Bear Grilles when they buy an SUV. No they still go to work, go to the shops, take the kids to school and sport.

Most people do not need to own a truck, as has been the case throughout modern history. These vehicles are absolutely not necessary for most, they are having a material impact on climate change and ruining urban spaces designed for cars, not trucks.

Still, it doesn't matter what anyone says, free society as we know it is doomed and this is just one of many signs making clear that humans are incapable of adapting intelligently to changing conditions, just like any other dumb animal.

To imply that anywhere near the majority of SUVs are used for off roading is somewhere between erroneous and misleading. SUVs (and crossovers) have essentially replaced sedans as the standard vehicles that are sold/manufactured. This is a style/marketing effect and has been unaccompanied by a concomitant increase in interest in off roading.

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 3:30 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 3:25 pm

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:13 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 1:30 am
Yes, to the office. To the shops. To friends' places. To do errands. Australians are far more concentrated in major cities than Americans. I have seen many thousands of SUVs this year. In that time I saw one with mud and some wear, that was not shiny and pristine.

That's because they wash them as soon as they return from their camping trip.

Despite what I said before, many people who own SUVs also own another vehicle. One friend of mine, a retired civil engineer who is also a landlord with 5 rental houses, owns 3 vehicles, an SUV, a 4-passenger pickup, and an electric. He needs the pickup because as a landlord he often has to move furniture, appliances, and building materials. He and his wife are also very outdoorsy, and go somewhere hiking, canoeing, camping, or skiing at every opportunity. Hence the SUV. They drove it to Arizona last summer, hitting several National Parks, slept in it some nights. For running around town they use the electric.

Amazing how they manage to wash off the bumps and scrapes that always happen when you drive in the wild. Must be great car wash. I would say about 5% go bush bashing, at most. I know dozens of owners of these cars, and they don't go on camping trips. Almost always, they drive to see family. Urban people don't suddenly turn into Bear Grilles when they buy an SUV. No they still go to work, go to the shops, take the kids to school and sport.

Most people do not need to own a truck, as has been the case throughout modern history. These vehicles are absolutely not necessary for most, they are having a material impact on climate change and ruining urban spaces designed for cars, not trucks.

Still, it doesn't matter what anyone says, free society as we know it is doomed and this is just one of many signs making clear that humans are incapable of adapting intelligently to changing conditions, just like any other dumb animal.

To imply that anywhere near the majority of SUVs are used for off roading is somewhere between erroneous and misleading. SUVs (and crossovers) have essentially replaced sedans as the standard vehicles that are sold/manufactured. This is a style/marketing effect and has been unaccompanied by a concomitant increase in interest in off roading.

Yep. SUVs are in fashion, a positional good. The almost-complete saturation of the market with these oversized vehicles could have been prevented if governments had not exempted them from being classified them as trucks, according to size and weight.

The SUV is the physical demonstration of the US's contempt for the planet and utter disregard for the future of the earth.

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 3:30 pm
To imply that anywhere near the majority of SUVs are used for off roading is somewhere between erroneous and misleading.

That is probably true with respect to off-roading, but not for "rough-roading." Most camping, fishing, hunting, skiing trips are over rough roads --- rutted, potholed, and overgrown forest roads, muddy and flooded roads, unplowed snow-covered roads. High clearance 4-wheel drive vehicles handle those roads, and also provide a shelter, in lieu of a tent, when you get to whatever creek or mountain lake or cross-country ski trailhead you picked for this weekend's adventure.

SUVs (and crossovers) have essentially replaced sedans as the standard vehicles that are sold/manufactured.

Yup. Because they are more versatile, practical vehicles.

Another interesting wrinkle: SUVs, along with vans, have created an entirely new subculture, the "nomad" culture --- people, many of whom are retirees, whose only homes are their vans or SUVs. That culture was the subject of an award-winning film last year, Nomadland, starring Francis McDormand.

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 8:57 pm

SUVs (and crossovers) have essentially replaced sedans as the standard vehicles that are sold/manufactured.

Yup. Because they are more versatile, practical vehicles.

SUVs are:
1) pointlessly contributing to climate change and,
2) ironically, for this thread, they are very much underpriced, especially given the extra costs incurred for road maintenance, road widening, additional traffic lights, worsened traffic jams, parking lot redesign, accidents caused by worsened visibility that naturally occur when cars are replaced with trucks.

The proliferation of SUVs reminds me every day that there is zero hope for the future in the short to medium term. Once just has to accept the inevitable, and ever more rapid, decline. If not even the masses care, it's game over.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 4:03 pm The SUV is the physical demonstration of the US's contempt for the planet and utter disregard for the future of the earth.

I'm reading "The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity" by David Graeber and David Wengrow (I got it for Christmas). I'm not very far into it, but one of the themes is how the Enlightenment in Europe was largely prompted by new ideas from (you guessed it) America. Liberally educated beaurocracies were an idea borrowed from China and India, as European vessels started plying the seas. But some of the notions of freedom and equality, which were utterly foreign to European ways of thinking, came from the New World.

Indeed, one result of seeing Europeans as genocidal racists has been to ignore the influence of Native American philsophies on the Enlightenment (acc. to the authors). In fact, "travel books" were wildly popular in the 16th and 17th centuries, and many of them intorduced readers to North American critiques of European culture -- which, in turn, influenced European critics.

The book (I think) will argue against both the Hobbsian and Rouseauian views of human cultural development. Another interesting tid bit from the first two chapters: Europeans of that era certainly didn't see human history as progressive -- like we sicence-oriented moderns do. They were more likely to see simple hunting and gathering societies as having regressed from a civilized state (just as Europe regressed from Greece and Rome).

My sister (PhD. anthroplogy professor) has read some of Graeber's other books , and claims he's brilliant (or was, he died recently). The book seems like it would interest GE and Sy Borg -- so far (I've read the first two chapters) it's fascinating. Sculptor need not read it, since he knows everything already. Except, perhaps, he is wrong that the U.S. holds the planet in contempt, since countries cannot feel contempt. Only sensient beings can.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 9:21 pm
SUVs are:
1) pointlessly contributing to climate change . . .

Now, now. That contribution is not "pointless" if it serves some purpose or desire of the owner's, which will be no more "pointless" than any other use of an automobile.

2) ironically, for this thread, they are very much underpriced, especially given the extra costs incurred for road maintenance, road widening, additional traffic lights, worsened traffic jams, parking lot redesign, accidents caused by worsened visibility that naturally occur when cars are replaced with trucks.

Huh? "Road widening"? "Additional traffic lights"? "Parking lot re-design"? I know of no roads widened or parking lots re-designed to accommodate SUVs, whose track widths and wheelbases are only marginally greater than those of a full-size sedan: Track 62.6 inches Toyota Camry, 68.5 inches for Chevrolet Tahoe (those are the most popular sedans and SUVs, respectively, in the US).

Ecurb wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 9:23 pm
I'm reading "The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity" by David Graeber and David Wengrow (I got it for Christmas). I'm not very far into it, but one of the themes is how the Enlightenment in Europe was largely prompted by new ideas from (you guessed it) America. Liberally educated beaurocracies were an idea borrowed from China and India, as European vessels started plying the seas. But some of the notions of freedom and equality, which were utterly foreign to European ways of thinking, came from the New World.

Foreign to much Continental thinking, perhaps. But those "American" ideas of freedom and equality were forged in Great Britain. The American Revolution did draw more attention to them on the Continent.

GE Morton wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 10:24 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 9:21 pm
SUVs are:
1) pointlessly contributing to climate change . . .

Now, now. That contribution is not "pointless" if it serves some purpose or desire of the owner's, which will be no more "pointless" than any other use of an automobile.

2) ironically, for this thread, they are very much underpriced, especially given the extra costs incurred for road maintenance, road widening, additional traffic lights, worsened traffic jams, parking lot redesign, accidents caused by worsened visibility that naturally occur when cars are replaced with trucks.

Huh? "Road widening"? "Additional traffic lights"? "Parking lot re-design"? I know of no roads widened or parking lots re-designed to accommodate SUVs, whose track widths and wheelbases are only marginally greater than those of a full-size sedan: Track 62.6 inches Toyota Camry, 68.5 inches for Chevrolet Tahoe (those are the most popular sedans and SUVs, respectively, in the US).

Yep, in my local area. New lights due to the extra congestion they cause. Widening has been done too. Physics matters.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 27th, 2021, 11:06 pm
Yep, in my local area. New lights due to the extra congestion they cause. Widening has been done too. Physics matters.

By "widening," do you mean adding lanes, or increasing lane width? The former would be due to increased traffic, not to increased vehicle size. I know of no case where the former has been done in my state or any of the neighboring states, except when a former private road has been bought and added to the city or county street or road system, in which cases it is brought up to the applicable standard.