Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[popeye1945]

Beauty is the ideal constitution of the species displayed in the particular object, and the further from beauty the closer one is to none existence, for beauty is the health of the constitution of the object. This is true if the subject is organic or a creation of by organic subject. The constitution of an organism is displayed in the outer genotype/physical manifestation of the animal. Everything is pattern including the DNA of organisms. where the normal pattern it mutated, it is generally a death sentence for an organism, for an object of human utility a cup is head for the trash. Indeed, there is no such thing as a perfect evolutionary adaptation evolution could not work with perfection, organisms need to be plastic in nature to react in adaptation to an ever-changing world. So, beauty is the subjective appreciation of the near perfection of the constitution of an object/organism.

[LuckyR]

Beauty is not subjective at all.

Beauty is an objective "element" like hot or cold.

Beauty is beauty is beauty. Hot is hot is hot.

Well "hot" is a relative descriptor (in relation to "cold", as you referred to), not an absolute one. Therefore it cannot be objective. Saying it is 100 degrees F outside is an objective statement, saying it is hot outside only has meaning if you provide context. "Hot outside" has different meaning on Venus than it does on Earth... definitely not objective.

Beauty operates similarly.

[popeye1945]

Beauty is not subjective at all.

Beauty is an objective "element" like hot or cold.

Beauty is beauty is beauty. Hot is hot is hot.

Well, "hot" is a relative descriptor (in relation to "cold", as you referred to), not an absolute one. Therefore, it cannot be objective. Saying it is 100 degrees F outside is an objective statement, saying it is hot outside only has meaning if you provide context. "Hot outside" has a different meaning on Venus than it does on Earth... definitely not objective.

Beauty operates similarly.

Biological consciousness is the measure and meaning of all things, hot is hot because it is hot compared to your biology, beauty is the appreciation of the near perfection of the constitution which manifests as the genotype/physical body/organism. As far as beauty goes with the utility of an object, it again is compared to a more ideal form and structure, if it fails in form or structure, it is monstrosity/ugly, and thrown into the trash. Your apparent reality/everyday reality is a biological readout, reality is the experience of biological reactions. The only way things can be known to us is through our subjective experience which gives us meaning and knowledge. We do not truly experience what is out there, what we experience is how what is out there alters/effects our biology, so, we don't really know the source, we know the sources effect upon us, and that becomes our apparent reality.

[Pattern-chaser]

I believe beauty is when someone or something fulfills your wishes and needs at the point in your life that you're at when you consider it beautiful. It also could strongly depend on what the person/object does for you as a whole whilst contributing to your emotional health, physical health, mental health, etc. and if it is attractive to you in any way.

I believe beauty is a subjective, aesthetic, value judgement. Is there more to it than that? If so, I can't see it.

[popeye1945]

I believe beauty is when someone or something fulfills your wishes and needs at the point in your life that you're at when you consider it beautiful. It also could strongly depend on what the person/object does for you as a whole whilst contributing to your emotional health, physical health, mental health, etc. and if it is attractive to you in any way.

I believe beauty is a subjective, aesthetic, value judgement. Is there more to it than that? If so, I can't see it.

Generally speaking, in order for one to value something beautiful on a subjective level, it must come close to the characteristics and balances of it species type, whether that be of object or organisms. I believe it does speak to one's own order of being or one could not discriminate. The beautiful can be simple in function and form, and for lack of a better term, it would be a healthy/fine example of its species whether object or organism. Speaking of one's intellectual and emotional life, to be surrounded by the beautiful, orderly and healthy could not be anything other than good for one on these levels. The ugly, Kaos, and the unhealthy if still manifest, are closer to nonexistence than previously stated. To judge subjectively one must be judging some quality or qualities of an object or organism. I am not sure but, I don't know of any research on it but, perhaps the unhealthier a person is, the less likely they are to appreciate beauty, just a random thought.

[Pattern-chaser]

I believe beauty is when someone or something fulfills your wishes and needs at the point in your life that you're at when you consider it beautiful. It also could strongly depend on what the person/object does for you as a whole whilst contributing to your emotional health, physical health, mental health, etc. and if it is attractive to you in any way.

I believe beauty is a subjective, aesthetic, value judgement. Is there more to it than that? If so, I can't see it.

Generally speaking, in order for one to value something beautiful on a subjective level, it must come close to the characteristics and balances of it species type, whether that be of object or organisms. I believe it does speak to one's own order of being or one could not discriminate. The beautiful can be simple in function and form, and for lack of a better term, it would be a healthy/fine example of its species whether object or organism. Speaking of one's intellectual and emotional life, to be surrounded by the beautiful, orderly and healthy could not be anything other than good for one on these levels. The ugly, Kaos, and the unhealthy if still manifest, are closer to nonexistence than previously stated. To judge subjectively one must be judging some quality or qualities of an object or organism. I am not sure but, I don't know of any research on it but, perhaps the unhealthier a person is, the less likely they are to appreciate beauty, just a random thought.

You write as though you know, or know of, all the factors that lead to a subjective judgement of beauty. I submit that there are so many of these factors, major and minor, weighed together by unknown 'rules', that the outcome is essentially random. Just as people vary widely, so do their conceptions of beauty.

As for health contributing to the perception of beauty, I don't think this holds up. Health simply doesn't have any significant connection to beauty, I don't think.

[popeye1945]

I believe beauty is when someone or something fulfills your wishes and needs at the point in your life that you're at when you consider it beautiful. It also could strongly depend on what the person/object does for you as a whole whilst contributing to your emotional health, physical health, mental health, etc. and if it is attractive to you in any way.

I believe beauty is a subjective, aesthetic, value judgement. Is there more to it than that? If so, I can't see it.

Generally speaking, in order for one to value something beautiful on a subjective level, it must come close to the characteristics and balances of it species type, whether that be of object or organisms. I believe it does speak to one's own order of being or one could not discriminate. The beautiful can be simple in function and form, and for lack of a better term, it would be a healthy/fine example of its species whether object or organism. Speaking of one's intellectual and emotional life, to be surrounded by the beautiful, orderly and healthy could not be anything other than good for one on these levels. The ugly, Kaos, and the unhealthy if still manifest, are closer to nonexistence than previously stated. To judge subjectively one must be judging some quality or qualities of an object or organism. I am not sure but, I don't know of any research on it but, perhaps the unhealthier a person is, the less likely they are to appreciate beauty, just a random thought.

You write as though you know, or know of, all the factors that lead to a subjective judgement of beauty. I submit that there are so many of these factors, major and minor, weighed together by unknown 'rules', that the outcome is essentially random. Just as people vary widely, so do their conceptions of beauty.

As for health contributing to the perception of beauty, I don't think this holds up. Health simply doesn't have any significant connection to beauty, I don't think.

I couldn't disagree more. Do you think the aged and affirmed are as beautiful as the vitality of youth? If you do, I don't even want to talk to you.

[Pattern-chaser]

Do you think the aged and affirmed are as beautiful as the vitality of youth? If you do, I don't even want to talk to you.

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the proverb tells us. If you don't want to talk to me, you don't have to. No-one forced you to post, or to express your views.

Take care.

[popeye1945]

Do you think the aged and affirmed are as beautiful as the vitality of youth? If you do, I don't even want to talk to you.

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the proverb tells us. If you don't want to talk to me, you don't have to. No-one forced you to post, or to express your views.

Take care.

So, you are telling me there are no principles involved, and each individual is as good a judge as the next, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, well, if nothing else its simple.

[LuckyR]

Beauty is not subjective at all.

Beauty is an objective "element" like hot or cold.

Beauty is beauty is beauty. Hot is hot is hot.

Well, "hot" is a relative descriptor (in relation to "cold", as you referred to), not an absolute one. Therefore, it cannot be objective. Saying it is 100 degrees F outside is an objective statement, saying it is hot outside only has meaning if you provide context. "Hot outside" has a different meaning on Venus than it does on Earth... definitely not objective.

Beauty operates similarly.

Biological consciousness is the measure and meaning of all things, hot is hot because it is hot compared to your biology, beauty is the appreciation of the near perfection of the constitution which manifests as the genotype/physical body/organism. As far as beauty goes with the utility of an object, it again is compared to a more ideal form and structure, if it fails in form or structure, it is monstrosity/ugly, and thrown into the trash. Your apparent reality/everyday reality is a biological readout, reality is the experience of biological reactions. The only way things can be known to us is through our subjective experience which gives us meaning and knowledge. We do not truly experience what is out there, what we experience is how what is out there alters/effects our biology, so, we don't really know the source, we know the sources effect upon us, and that becomes our apparent reality.

Perfectly reasonable and logical opinions. Others disagree, which is ALSO reasonable and logical. But like all opinions, they're subjective.

[Pattern-chaser]

Do you think the aged and affirmed are as beautiful as the vitality of youth? If you do, I don't even want to talk to you.

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the proverb tells us.

So, you are telling me there are no principles involved, and each individual is as good a judge as the next, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, well, if nothing else its simple.

You trivialise the idea with your language, but yes, that's about it. But "as good as" invites comparison, and it might even result in the conclusion that one person's judgement is *better* than someone else's, which is not correct. There is no justification for reaching such a conclusion. Judgement is individual, valid for that individual, but perhaps not for others. That's rather the point.

[popeye1945]

Do you think the aged and affirmed are as beautiful as the vitality of youth? If you do, I don't even want to talk to you.

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the proverb tells us.

So, you are telling me there are no principles involved, and each individual is as good a judge as the next, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, well, if nothing else its simple.

You trivialise the idea with your language, but yes, that's about it. But "as good as" invites comparison, and it might even result in the conclusion that one person's judgement is *better* than someone else's, which is not correct. There is no justification for reaching such a conclusion. Judgement is individual, valid for that individual, but perhaps not for others. That's rather the point.

You've made me think twice, yes of course all judgments and all meanings is subjective, it is only when it is a collective subjective judgement that this kind of falls apart. I guess when it comes to assigning value to the proposed object or organism that an analysis of what constitutes beauty in that particular object or organism takes place. The individual may never question his own judgment. One might think on a subjective level that a monstrosity is beautiful as long as one's judgment is not shared; one can maintain any thought absurd or not. I know some people like that, don't confuse the issue with facts, it is impolite. The beautiful determined by the collective two or more, is based on certain principles making the object or organism beautiful because of its symmetry, just one example. You are however right, in our isolated subjectivity, nothing is more powerful than personal experience.

[Pattern-chaser]

I guess when it comes to assigning value to the proposed object or organism that an analysis of what constitutes beauty in that particular object or organism takes place.

There is no "analysis". The process is unconscious, and includes an emotional basis, and maybe many other influences too. It is intuitive; it 'just happens'.

The individual may never question his own judgment.

Why would they? A subjective judgement is not subject to challenge, just as no-one else need accept it.

The beautiful determined by the collective two or more, is based on certain principles making the object or organism beautiful because of its symmetry, just one example. You are however right, in our isolated subjectivity, nothing is more powerful than personal experience.

There are no such "principles". Just as there is no "analysis". I like King Crimson and Paul Desmond. You must accept this without challenge. Equally, and obviously (I hope), you need not accept my judgement yourself. That's how subjective value judgements work. There is no universal, 'objective', consensus, just an awful lot of personal beliefs and conclusions, all unchallengeable.

[popeye1945]

I guess when it comes to assigning value to the proposed object or organism that an analysis of what constitutes beauty in that particular object or organism takes place.

There is no "analysis". The process is unconscious, and includes an emotional basis, and maybe many other influences too. It is intuitive; it 'just happens'.

The individual may never question his own judgment.

Why would they? A subjective judgement is not subject to challenge, just as no-one else need accept it.

The beautiful determined by the collective two or more, is based on certain principles making the object or organism beautiful because of its symmetry, just one example. You are however right, in our isolated subjectivity, nothing is more powerful than personal experience.

There are no such "principles". Just as there is no "analysis". I like King Crimson and Paul Desmond. You must accept this without challenge. Equally, and obviously (I hope), you need not accept my judgement yourself. That's how subjective value judgements work. There is no universal, 'objective', consensus, just an awful lot of personal beliefs and conclusions, all unchallengeable.

Tell that to the art world.

[popeye1945]

I believe beauty is when someone or something fulfills your wishes and needs at the point in your life that you're at when you consider it beautiful. It also could strongly depend on what the person/object does for you as a whole whilst contributing to your emotional health, physical health, mental health, etc. and if it is attractive to you in any way.

I believe beauty is a subjective, aesthetic, value judgement. Is there more to it than that? If so, I can't see it.

Everything, all experience, all knowledge, all meaning, and all feelings are subjective. It is the only way we know the world.