Philosophy Discussion Forums

jerlands wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 2:33 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:29 am
The bible is due for a very critical update!

I agree with this in that I believe the Bible is not the be all end all in our relationship with "God" but the question remains if in fact it is truth.

'Truth', a metaphysically problematic term.
Within the illusory perceived world of duality, 'truth' must have an opposite.
A specific context where something is true and, in another context, false, is a matter of Perspective of the same one Reality.
In the metaphysical sense, Truth (Reality/God/Universe) is ALL inclusive!
There exists nothing other than Reality/Truth/God... Self!!
That is what Omni- means; One, transcendental, no context, no 'other'.
So, in that sense, the bible, and everything else is 'Truth', but our limited Perspectives applies 'context', the schizophrenic duality.

I think that this fellow expressed this beautifully;

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium (our perceived duality/context - n) must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the Whole." - Rene' Guenon

What i dislike about it is it leads to an apocalyptic end and this I question.

When I hear of the end of the world as we know it, some call it an Apocalypse... whatever..
The world as we know it it a dead horse, a failure, a horror!
There are Loving/Enlightened people, and there are hateful, insane, violent people who cannot 'change'.
They (we?) are going to have to die off, be skimmed from the gene pool!
In a couple of centuries (t)here will be Universal unconditional Love/Enlightenment, and in the intervening time, we show our colors.
Unconditional Love (Heaven) makes it, anything else (Hell), does not.
It will get bad, ugly, violent!!
Every 'strong right arm' striking down is God's strong right arm! (The gene pool must be constantly skimmed.)
Every Loving arm lifting up is, likewise, Ours!

Keep your eye on the 'prize'; the bible does say that you need not concern yourself with 'life' and 'death'!! That if you are Enlightened/unconditionally Loving ('Christian', for instance, the way that Jesus described it), 'they will fall to your right and left and you will remain!'
Faith means;
"Do what you know to be right, say what you know to be True, and leave with Faith and patience the consequences to God!

Just be the Loving 'fly on the wall' and shine your Light!

Oh, to have a 'relationship' with anything/anyone, you have to be separated from that one!
Such is the schizophrenia of the dual!
Don't sweat the small schizophrenic stuff like 'life' and 'death'!
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!
Our 'relationship' is One with!
There can be only One! *__-

PS;

"God cannot know himself without me." - Meister Eckhart

"The eye by which I see God is the same as the eye by which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one and the same." - Meister Eckhart

(Regarding metaphor and myth and science, for that matter;)
"All things are simply God to thee who seest only God in all things. Like one who looks long at the sun, he encounters the sun in whatever he afterwards looks at. If this is lacking, this looking for and seeing God in all and sundry, then thou lackest this birth." - Meister Eckhart

"What a man loves, he is. If he loves a stone he is that stone, if he loves a person he is that person, if he loves God - nay, I durst not say more; were I to say, he is God, he might stone me. I do but teach you the scriptures." - Meister Eckhart

Count Lucanor wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 9:37 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 3:58 pm
The world is not flat but has depth and dimension. If you don't recognize what ancient man perceived as depth than that is merely an opinion. I happen to see a great deal of knowledge and depth in ancient teachings and in particular Ancient Egypt where it seems all western philosophical roads lead to.

Surely I can have a mere opinion, but I'm actually stating the facts: the Bible is a religious text full of mythological narratives created under specific political circumstances, most likely in the times of King Josiah, who is known to have carried out an important religious reform, which included a compilation of sacred texts. Whether they can be thought to have "depth and dimension" or not, is not the issue. Many fictional literary texts, both ancient and modern, can have depth and dimension. Anthropologists, historians, philologists, social scientists and philosophers have dedicated lots of efforts to study and discuss myths in ancient literature, as they give good insights about the societies where they were formed. That doesn't give any mythical story more historical accuracy or a better philosophical and scientific understanding of reality. They are two divergent modes of thinking.

First to address the last. I have a hard time removing science from the umbrella of philosophy. My view of philosophy is "all pursuit of knowledge and its application." I know that differs from what many believe but to be wise has its roots in "to know" so I just don't see it. As for the basis of your post... it seems to me in order to understand anything we have to examine it in context. That contextual reality is difficult because this is now and that was then so all elements present at that time are gone, they don't exist other than from what we can gather and imagine. Our imagination however is dependant on the individual and how they might see in themselves some relationship with whatever it is. In this case it's a period of time following the decline of the New Kingdom (Golden Era) in Ancient Egypt and shifting powers in the middle east. Israel was pretty much engulfed by Assyria and small states around it. So here we have men facing survival amid pretty bad odds. But the story is even more complicated because these men have been told by "God" they were led to the promised land and there they were to build a kingdom (in so many words.) Their identity was this relationship they had with "God" and that was expressed in their writings. That identity however wasn't temporal but it was and apparently is who they are. So.. trying to bring this back to something relative... if you as an individual want to ensure your survival in the future what is it you most want to have when you arrive there (consider children.) I would think those things that keep you near and dear with your identity, that which will bring you back to that which you are in essence.

So.. what I'm trying to relay here is a possible motivation for these writings but obviously I'm not explaining their meaning, maybe not even clearly expressing motivations. it's late..

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:32 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 2:33 am

I agree with this in that I believe the Bible is not the be all end all in our relationship with "God" but the question remains if in fact it is truth.

'Truth', a metaphysically problematic term.
Within the illusory perceived world of duality, 'truth' must have an opposite.
A specific context where something is true and, in another context, false, is a matter of Perspective of the same one Reality.
In the metaphysical sense, Truth (Reality/God/Universe) is ALL inclusive!
There exists nothing other than Reality/Truth/God... Self!!
That is what Omni- means; One, transcendental, no context, no 'other'.
So, in that sense, the bible, and everything else is 'Truth', but our limited Perspectives applies 'context', the schizophrenic duality.

I think that this fellow expressed this beautifully;

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium (our perceived duality/context - n) must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the Whole." - Rene' Guenon

If Truth (order) represents that which balances the scale then the Lie (chaos) must be that which tilts it.

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:32 pm
I think that this fellow expressed this beautifully;

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium (our perceived duality/context - n) must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the Whole." - Rene' Guenon

That sentiment seems very much in line with my original post heading "the Moaning of the Bedouin."

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:32 pm

What i dislike about it is it leads to an apocalyptic end and this I question.

When I hear of the end of the world as we know it, some call it an Apocalypse... whatever..
The world as we know it it a dead horse, a failure, a horror!
There are Loving/Enlightened people, and there are hateful, insane, violent people who cannot 'change'.
They (we?) are going to have to die off, be skimmed from the gene pool!
In a couple of centuries (t)here will be Universal unconditional Love/Enlightenment, and in the intervening time, we show our colors.
Unconditional Love (Heaven) makes it, anything else (Hell), does not.
It will get bad, ugly, violent!!
Every 'strong right arm' striking down is God's strong right arm! (The gene pool must be constantly skimmed.)
Every Loving arm lifting up is, likewise, Ours!

Keep your eye on the 'prize'; the bible does say that you need not concern yourself with 'life' and 'death'!! That if you are Enlightened/unconditionally Loving ('Christian', for instance, the way that Jesus described it), 'they will fall to your right and left and you will remain!'
Faith means;
"Do what you know to be right, say what you know to be True, and leave with Faith and patience the consequences to God!

Just be the Loving 'fly on the wall' and shine your Light!

Oh, to have a 'relationship' with anything/anyone, you have to be separated from that one!
Such is the schizophrenia of the dual!
Don't sweat the small schizophrenic stuff like 'life' and 'death'!
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!
Our 'relationship' is One with!
There can be only One! *__-

If only we could simply "Love "God" with all our hearts" and "Do unto others and they would do unto us" I think things would be better.

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:39 pm PS;

"God cannot know himself without me." - Meister Eckhart

"The eye by which I see God is the same as the eye by which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one and the same." - Meister Eckhart

(Regarding metaphor and myth and science, for that matter;)
"All things are simply God to thee who seest only God in all things. Like one who looks long at the sun, he encounters the sun in whatever he afterwards looks at. If this is lacking, this looking for and seeing God in all and sundry, then thou lackest this birth." - Meister Eckhart

"What a man loves, he is. If he loves a stone he is that stone, if he loves a person he is that person, if he loves God - nay, I durst not say more; were I to say, he is God, he might stone me. I do but teach you the scriptures." - Meister Eckhart

Now that's what I'm talking about


.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:19 amIf Truth (order) represents that which balances the scale then the Lie (chaos) must be that which tilts it.

Can't have Thor without Loki, but the Tao is the leveler of all things!
What's the difference between 'order' and 'chaos'?
Perspective!
They are, of course, One! *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:34 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:19 amIf Truth (order) represents that which balances the scale then the Lie (chaos) must be that which tilts it.

Can't have Thor without Loki, but the Tao is the leveler of all things!
What's the difference between 'order' and 'chaos'?
Perspective!
They are, of course, One! *__-

Does that mean we should expect massive flooding or something?
.

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:34 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:19 amIf Truth (order) represents that which balances the scale then the Lie (chaos) must be that which tilts it.

Can't have Thor without Loki, but the Tao is the leveler of all things!
What's the difference between 'order' and 'chaos'?
Perspective!
They are, of course, One! *__-

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah tells a tale of man disobeying the laws of order and bringing about an environmental calamity. So does man's actions play any role in our environment... like the weather for instance?
.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:56 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:34 am
Can't have Thor without Loki, but the Tao is the leveler of all things!
What's the difference between 'order' and 'chaos'?
Perspective!
They are, of course, One! *__-

Does that mean we should expect massive flooding or something?
.

There will be whatever it takes to 'clean the gene pool' for the coming times of Love!
Nature is just another of God's powerful right arms! Dictators who kill millions to the high school student who kills, to the tsunami to the drought... all works toward that end, all is a feature of the Perfection of the Whole!
There is no such thing as an 'untimely death', as each and every death is at the exact perfect moment in the exact perfect way.
What exists besides Perfection/God?

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 1:03 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 12:34 am
Can't have Thor without Loki, but the Tao is the leveler of all things!
What's the difference between 'order' and 'chaos'?
Perspective!
They are, of course, One! *__-

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah tells a tale of man disobeying the laws of order and bringing about an environmental calamity.

The tale is used to justify people's sin of judgment and persecution of other people.
Another nasty and dismissible bit, part of the critical update.
No justifications will be left with which the 'posers' (the vast majority of 'Xtians') to cover/hide their sin (blasphemy is blaming your sin on God)!

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 1:38 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 1:03 am
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah tells a tale of man disobeying the laws of order and bringing about an environmental calamity. So does man's actions play any role in our environment... like the weather for instance?

The tale is used to justify people's sin of judgment and persecution of other people.
Another nasty and dismissible bit, part of the critical update.
No justifications will be left with which the 'posers' (the vast majority of 'Xtians') to cover/hide their sin (blasphemy is blaming your sin on God)!

Hmm, well... I happen to see things somewhat differently. I believe "God" acts through his creation, hence the reason for creation. Secondly, I believe man is the crown of creation and it's through man "God" ultimately works. Thirdly I believe man's mind and actions directly impacts the environment and it's man who opposes the forces of chaos to bring order into his life. This gives man an active role in his destiny and the responsibility to seek truth and justice. I also believe what's referred to as error incarnate (Satan) exists and it's man's role in life to balance and recognize those elements in his existence that create disorder and disharmony. Life itself opposes the the universal entropic force of dark matter, it's what order is in the universe (life.) The fact is man can not live in a sterile environment but we need a degree of stress however, anything to excess in a bad thing. Another fact is it isn't all good.. there are some very bad things and we should protect our minds so that we don't follow error into oblivion.
.

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 1:38 am No justifications will be left with which the 'posers' (the vast majority of 'Xtians') to cover/hide their sin (blasphemy is blaming your sin on God)!

The greatest sin is to take the Lord's name in vain. To consider yourself "God," to consider yourself "Law" without recognizing the true source of all things good and just. "God" apparently did not create Satan but things that have free will have choice and that choice can be very wrong. Free will may be one of the most frightening and glorious things about man.
.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 2:01 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 1:38 am
The tale is used to justify people's sin of judgment and persecution of other people.
Another nasty and dismissible bit, part of the critical update.
No justifications will be left with which the 'posers' (the vast majority of 'Xtians') to cover/hide their sin (blasphemy is blaming your sin on God)!

Hmm, well... I happen to see things somewhat differently.

But of course you do! *__-

I believe...

The two words that put the kibosh on a nice intellectual philosophical discussion.

"God" acts through his creation, hence the reason for creation.

From the philosophical/scientific Perspective, that would be the second kibosh; 'causality/creation' is impossible!
That is why beliefs and rational logic cannot occupy the same ball park amicably. They are different critters.
Nevertheless, there is One Truth/Reality/Universe... God... Self!... and all that is ever perceived from any Perspective is still Us! Truth is all inclusive; even of the schizophrenics who cannot see that.
Even of the most insane 'beliefs'.
All God.

Secondly, I believe man is the crown of creation and it's through man "God" ultimately works. Thirdly I believe man's mind and actions directly impacts the environment and it's man who opposes the forces of chaos to bring order into his life. This gives man an active role in his destiny and the responsibility to seek truth and justice. I also believe what's referred to as error incarnate (Satan) exists and it's man's role in life to balance and recognize those elements in his existence that create disorder and disharmony. Life itself opposes the the universal entropic force of dark matter, it's what order is in the universe (life.) The fact is man can not live in a sterile environment but we need a degree of stress however, anything to excess in a bad thing. Another fact is it isn't all good.. there are some very bad things and we should protect our minds so that we don't follow error into oblivion.
.

I'm hearing an awful lot of judgment in here, a lot of munching on the Forbidden Fruit (tm).
I don't know what religion you are, but those of the bible are warned against such judgments, no?
There can be no 'judgment' in Love (Jesus' only requirement of a follower).
In unconditional Love, one cannot see 'evil/bad/good...', one sees the Beloved!
From the Xtian tradition, we have these words;

"All things are simply God to thee who seest only God in all things. Like one who looks long at the sun, he encounters the sun in whatever he afterwards looks at. If this is lacking, this looking for and seeing God in all and sundry, then thou lackest this birth." - Meister Eckhart

"What a man loves, he is. If he loves a stone he is that stone, if he loves a person he is that person, if he loves God - nay, I durst not say more; were I to say, he is God, he might stone me. I do but teach you the scriptures." - Meister Eckhart

Sorry for the repetition.
Too bad we cannot manage an edit button on here, or delete. Seems so simple...

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 1:31 am

"God" acts through his creation, hence the reason for creation.

From the philosophical/scientific Perspective, that would be the second kibosh; 'causality/creation' is impossible!

Would you mind explaining this thought to me?

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 1:31 am That is why beliefs and rational logic cannot occupy the same ball park amicably. They are different critters.

The "Nicene Creed" I believe in one "God" the father almighty creator of heaven and earth... Does that sentence contain only belief or does it also contain some logical structure?

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 1:31 am Nevertheless, there is One Truth/Reality/Universe... God... Self!... and all that is ever perceived from any Perspective is still Us! Truth is all inclusive; even of the schizophrenics who cannot see that.
Even of the most insane 'beliefs'.
All God.

I understand the concept of "All God" and I also understand "God" is something possibly incomprehensible so to start declaring what "God" is might be a bit presumptuous? How do we know everything is "God?" How do you explain acts like murder? Is murder something "God" brought into the world?

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 1:31 am

Secondly, I believe man is the crown of creation and it's through man "God" ultimately works. Thirdly I believe man's mind and actions directly impacts the environment and it's man who opposes the forces of chaos to bring order into his life. This gives man an active role in his destiny and the responsibility to seek truth and justice. I also believe what's referred to as error incarnate (Satan) exists and it's man's role in life to balance and recognize those elements in his existence that create disorder and disharmony. Life itself opposes the the universal entropic force of dark matter, it's what order is in the universe (life.) The fact is man can not live in a sterile environment but we need a degree of stress however, anything to excess in a bad thing. Another fact is it isn't all good.. there are some very bad things and we should protect our minds so that we don't follow error into oblivion.
.

I'm hearing an awful lot of judgment in here, a lot of munching on the Forbidden Fruit (tm).
I don't know what religion you are, but those of the bible are warned against such judgments, no?
There can be no 'judgment' in Love (Jesus' only requirement of a follower).
In unconditional Love, one cannot see 'evil/bad/good...', one sees the Beloved!

I guess then Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers and angrily accusing them of turning his house into a den of thieves was what? This act recognizes wrong, it recognizes error and there are numerous examples in the New Testament of Jesus admonishing wrong i.e., judgement.
.