Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Vanamali Thotapalli]

The religious belief that God will forgive if one feels remorse and genuinely repents , makes the sinner whole again and ready to be a better person. Not every religious person is as cynical as you imply in your last sentence.

Repentance is about the Victim - not about the criminal - but these religions make it all about the criminal
Repentance is the first step, not the last - and here in these religions they make it the last, since he or she is forgiven
True Repentance says "I feel bad for what I did to the VICTIM, he or she is suffering/suffered because of what I did"
But the Repentance you talk about says "I feel bad for what I did, forgive me!" No mention of the victim, all about how he can be forgiven
.
And no Judge, in this case God, has the right to forgive! ONLY the victim has that right
So many cases have been dropped because the victims failed to press charges
No Judge or God, is going to help the criminal cheat his victims
.
True Forgiveness is EARNED, not Given
Only after the criminal has set things right, made amends will the victim gladly forgive him
Until the criminal does that, there can be no forgiveness
.
Many people make New Year's resolutions - do they not mean them? Of course they do
Many people have had heart attacks because of their lifestyle - once woken up in the hospital, realizing how close they were to dying, they hug their families and cry "I will start eating right, exercise, become a whole new man"
Do they not mean it? Of course they do! How many follow up? And how many go back to their old ways?
But following thru is not that easy, right?
Talk is cheap, it is the Action that counts
.
Repentance is the talk - making amends is the Action
As far as the victim is concerned, they do not care how the criminal feels, all they care about is their loss being made up
Madoff's victims want their money back - they care not a hoot how Madoff feels
We have so many seniors being robbed off their life savings by criminals - how would they feel knowing God has forgiven these criminals while they do without food and desperately needed medicine?
.
The problem for Christianity & Islam is the making amends part
How does one make amends after death - only by coming back - Reincarnation
But instead of asking God to give them a 2nd chance, set things right by the victim, these religions say just cry and beg
And nice God will forgive, help you cheat your victims
It won't work
The lack of morals, values is sickening
The frightening silence of so many is even more sickening

[LuckyR]

Except, the repaired car doesn't make the single mother whole. What about the Uber fares she didn't earn while her car was being fixed or the school days her kid missed when she couldn't take them to school, or the decreased resale value of her now repaired car? You mentioned earlier that in order for your definition of "justice" to occur, murdered victims need to come back to life, as if the murder never happened. I'm just holding you to your own standard with the parked car incident. Again, not a completely unreasonable definition. Just one that essentially no one else shares and has zero practical application in, you know... Real Life.

Yes the Judge will make the guilty pay not just for the damages but also for the wages lost & as well as the decreased value of her car
he is not going to say you only owe her just the repair costs

Reincarnation gives the murdered victims a new life
I can't imagine that little child growing up in Heaven without her mom, dad, grandparents, rest of her family, school, friends and the only life that she had ever known and growing up in a Charity Retirement Home full of aged people shuffling about, snoring away in their armchairs
For a child or any young person - Heaven would be horrible

So basically, that is how murdered victims would get Justice

Again, a not uninteresting thought experiment.

[Sy Borg]

Why do we have such sense of repaying evil. But we don't use that same energy to chase repaying great friends.

Well said.

That's the negativity bias in action, caused by the delightful fact that no matter how good thing can be, it can never even come close to how bad things can get.

[Pattern-chaser]

...in my lexicon the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" is who is performing the act. To my understanding justice is meted out by the Justice system, whereas vengeance is performed by the victim or their family.

That's an interesting thought — justice is faceless, while vengeance is personal.

[LuckyR]

...in my lexicon the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" is who is performing the act. To my understanding justice is meted out by the Justice system, whereas vengeance is performed by the victim or their family.

That's an interesting thought — justice is faceless, while vengeance is personal.

Yes, that is an important issue and supports the concept of blind justice (why the women holding the scale is blindfolded).

[Hello Sailor]

I'd consider vengeance an excuse for cruelty

[LuckyR]

I'd consider vengeance an excuse for cruelty

Could you go into greater detail into what you are specifically describing?

[Hello Sailor]

Its a choice of vengeance or forgiveness.
Id consider not forgiving a bit cruel. Just me

[Hello Sailor]

Or perhaps better put it would be kind to not seek revenge

[LuckyR]

Its a choice of vengeance or forgiveness.
Id consider not forgiving a bit cruel. Just me

So a punk kid punches your kid in the nose on the schoolyard. It's unwitnessed by others. Your kid is medically okay but in some moderate emotional distress. How do you handle the situation? How do you advise your kid?

[Hello Sailor]

Remove him from the situation. Try to find out the facts.
Use it to teach the child to not hit others because it hurts

[Hello Sailor]

I'd go so far as to say more generally the only way forward for a more peaceful society is defenseless.
Eventually without defense, attack ceases to exist

[LuckyR]

Remove him from the situation. Try to find out the facts.
Use it to teach the child to not hit others because it hurts

Well the punk kid is long gone. Your kid tells you that when he was walking home from school he was by himself and the punk kid cold cocked him with a punch to the nose. Do you mean change your kid's school (away from where he will encounter the punk kid)? Your kid already knows it hurts and is by nature not aggressive. It hasn't occurred to him to punch other people.

What's your plan?

[Hello Sailor]

No more plans. How would you approach the situation?

[LuckyR]

No more plans. How would you approach the situation?

Before you sign off, what do you think is going to happen tomorrow when your kid walks home from school? Hint: what did the bully "learn" from the incident where 1) he punched a kid (happens to be yours) and 2) he got away with it?

You can still add input to the situation (if you think it's beneficial)...

I'll give you my plan next post.