Philosophy Discussion Forums

Vengeance, they say is for the lord, but sometimes you may see yourself losing patience because the people who wronged seemed to be even better after what they did. Just the irony.

Xenophon wrote: ↑January 9th, 2024, 4:12 am A return to vengeance would be a step toward cultural rebirth in the benighted West of today.

Well, you may think the West is benighted. Others can quite reasonably disagree. Where would you rather live? The west has gotta be better than say, North Korea, and better than a heap of other Nowherestans. There is decay and rebirth in the democratic West, as there always has been and, hopefully, always will be. I like to tell people who whinge about my own and other similar Western countries to go find a better place to live.

Xenophon wrote: ↑January 9th, 2024, 4:12 am A return to vengeance would be a step toward cultural rebirth in the benighted West of today.

Not working out very well in Gaza and Ukraine though is it?

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑January 9th, 2024, 4:45 am

Xenophon wrote: ↑January 9th, 2024, 4:12 am A return to vengeance would be a step toward cultural rebirth in the benighted West of today.

Well, you may think the West is benighted. Others can quite reasonably disagree. Where would you rather live? The west has gotta be better than say, North Korea, and better than a heap of other Nowheristans There is decay and rebirth in the democratic West, as there always has been and, hopefully, always will be. I like to tell people who whinge about my own and other similar Western countries to go find a better place to live.

I think we like to think that our lives are better than Nowheristans. but this is just our ignorance, in that we cannot have any access to how those people feel about their own lives.
From the earliest age we are indocrinated throught the TV, what to like, what to think, how to live, what to choose, and that we place choice above all else. Then the same box shows us the shiny, tasty things that keep the machine going if we all do the soulless 9-5 to get money to buy those things. The things are bad food, shiny crap, things that make a noise and cost more to run so that we continue to follow the 9-5 in an endless treadmill.
We get fat, unhealthy then we die, often in debt to the same monster than killed us.

Oh and the "West" is not homogenous. There are better and worse places within it.

Some of that may be true, Sculptor1. There are some things about life in the West that I, too, think could be better. Hell, if it were up to me there would be a UBI and free education for all paid for by the tax evading multinationals. However, Xenophon's blanket condemnation of the west is just ridiculous. Their are better and worse places to live in this world. That is a fact everyone understands. I know that millions upon millions would come to live in my country if only they could get in. Those millions live in poverty stricken countries riven with religious strife, the depredations of tribal warlords, far worse inequality than in the west, the oppression of women and other minorities, lack of the most basic social services.... The waiting list to get into my country is many years long, even if you are a skilled migrant. And the government has just made a huge cut in intake. For those millions who want to come here, life in their Nowherestans is bleak. If it weren't, they wouldn't want to leave to come here. But over the last couple of years refugees granted permanent residency has been extremely low. In the financial year 2020–21, there was a quote of 13,750 refugee and humanitarian visas. Those millions waiting will never get in. It's sad. But the millions wanting to come is a reflection of the truth that people would love to leave their strife-torn Nowherestans to make a better life in the West.

We frequently conflate Vengeance with Justice
We put a murderer in Jail and call it Justice done. Nope - that is pure Vengeance, not Justice
Justice is when the murdered person gets his life back - Justice is when a person who has lost his money or loved ones gets them back
Justice is when the victim is made whole - anything else is Vengeance
.
Hollywood loves Vengeance - Justice, not so much
In movies like Kill Bill - the hero or heroine gets hurt in the beginning of the movie, loses their loved ones and then it is a kill fest
One by one the bad guys are killed - especially disturbing in the above movie was where the heroine kills one of the bad woman, with her kid in the next room - if this was real life, guess what this kid will do when she grows up? That is why it is called Vengeance, an eye-for-an-eye
Lots of blood, all the bad guys are killed - the audience gets their blood lust satisfied and at the end they proclaim that Justice was done
But did the Hero or Heroine get their loved ones back? Did they get their life back?
Not at all - then it is not Justice
.
If a Parent is told that their little child has been abducted by a criminal, would it make these parents happy to understand that the criminal died a horrible death? Or has contracted a horrible flesh-eating disease and is slowly dying?
Not at all - all any Parent wants is their child back - THAT would be Justice
So many older people were cheated by Madoff. Are they happy he was sent to jail, died in jail?
Of course not - his being in jail won't pay the bills for their meds, food - all of which had to be cut because of him
Justice would be them getting their money back, their life back
.
And when it comes to religion, we clearly see that all religions are man-made especially the top ones
"God" is powerless to render Justice!
A while ago, In Minn, a little girl was abducted, raped and killed! They caught the guy and is now in jail
Will that make the parents happy? For the rest of their lives they have to live without their golden child
At every graduation, wedding, birthday celebration that they go to, they are reminded that their child was denied the same
At every event they would be saying "Our kid would be doing this now"
And of course the little girl was robbed off Life!
I am old now - 66 this month - why did i get to live this long, enjoy life, lots of good memories and this little girl never got a start? never got to enjoy all that life has to offer?
That is why Reincarnation says we get a 2nd chance for those robbed off this opportunity
.
But in the Christian/Islamic religions, no such dice
God can offer only vengeance to this couple and this golden girl
He can torture this killer in Hell and that's about it
And of course religion is also happy to tell the killer that if he repents, nice God will forgive and he can then enjoy Heaven!
But God can do nothing to help this couple and their pain, can do nothing for that little girl
God cannot render Justice!

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 4th, 2024, 5:56 pm We frequently conflate Vengeance with Justice
We put a murderer in Jail and call it Justice done. Nope - that is pure Vengeance, not Justice
Justice is when the murdered person gets his life back - Justice is when a person who has lost his money or loved ones gets them back
Justice is when the victim is made whole - anything else is Vengeance
.
Hollywood loves Vengeance - Justice, not so much
In movies like Kill Bill - the hero or heroine gets hurt in the beginning of the movie, loses their loved ones and then it is a kill fest
One by one the bad guys are killed - especially disturbing in the above movie was where the heroine kills one of the bad woman, with her kid in the next room - if this was real life, guess what this kid will do when she grows up? That is why it is called Vengeance, an eye-for-an-eye
Lots of blood, all the bad guys are killed - the audience gets their blood lust satisfied and at the end they proclaim that Justice was done
But did the Hero or Heroine get their loved ones back? Did they get their life back?
Not at all - then it is not Justice
.
If a Parent is told that their little child has been abducted by a criminal, would it make these parents happy to understand that the criminal died a horrible death? Or has contracted a horrible flesh-eating disease and is slowly dying?
Not at all - all any Parent wants is their child back - THAT would be Justice
So many older people were cheated by Madoff. Are they happy he was sent to jail, died in jail?
Of course not - his being in jail won't pay the bills for their meds, food - all of which had to be cut because of him
Justice would be them getting their money back, their life back
.
And when it comes to religion, we clearly see that all religions are man-made especially the top ones
"God" is powerless to render Justice!
A while ago, In Minn, a little girl was abducted, raped and killed! They caught the guy and is now in jail
Will that make the parents happy? For the rest of their lives they have to live without their golden child
At every graduation, wedding, birthday celebration that they go to, they are reminded that their child was denied the same
At every event they would be saying "Our kid would be doing this now"
And of course the little girl was robbed off Life!
I am old now - 66 this month - why did i get to live this long, enjoy life, lots of good memories and this little girl never got a start? never got to enjoy all that life has to offer?
That is why Reincarnation says we get a 2nd chance for those robbed off this opportunity
.
But in the Christian/Islamic religions, no such dice
God can offer only vengeance to this couple and this golden girl
He can torture this killer in Hell and that's about it
And of course religion is also happy to tell the killer that if he repents, nice God will forgive and he can then enjoy Heaven!
But God can do nothing to help this couple and their pain, can do nothing for that little girl
God cannot render Justice!

A not illogical, but very uncommon definition of "justice", since it essentially doesn't exist except in time travel novels.

Justice is about making the victim whole, not about punishing the criminal
If you drove drunk one night and crashed into a parked car - in the light of the day, of course one is repentant
But no Judge is going to forgive you and let you go, because you cried repentance
First, Repentance truly means that one feels sorry for the VICTIM - in this case the owner of the parked car
That could be a single mother with kids who drives for Uber and now she can't - her kids might go hungry
.
To any judge that is whom matters - the Victim - not the criminal crying boo-hoo!
Any judge will say, "stop crying. Stop feeling sorry for YOURSELF! This is not about you!"
Next, the Judge will say, "Apologize to the VICTIM, not to me! It is THEY who need to forgive you"
Third and this the most important - "you must compensate the victim for the loss of income. And then pay for the repairs to her car!"
Making amends, setting things right is the most important part
.
And then only then is Justice served!
And then only then Forgiveness is EARNED! Forgiveness is not given, it is EARNED!
That is the right way to do things
.
As I posted any Parent who had his or her child abducted, wants her back - not indulge in hate for the criminal
Those who have been cheated by the likes of Madoff, would want their money back and not about putting Madoff in jail
Justice is about not giving in to hate - sure we want the criminals caught, punished but the most important thing here is to make the
Victim whole - then and only then is Justice served
.
But when it comes to religion, Christians and Muslims do not want to make amends, set things right because they will have to be down here to do it!
Reincarnation!
Nope, not having it! And so enters a nice, forgiving God!
Will nicely listen to our cries of repentance and will forgive us! Help us cheat our victims!
.
Amazed that not one judge, lawyer, law student or even those with common sense do not speak up!
Again and again I am amazed how religion gets away with pushing immorality, the back door way out

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 5th, 2024, 10:10 pm Justice is about making the victim whole, not about punishing the criminal
If you drove drunk one night and crashed into a parked car - in the light of the day, of course one is repentant
But no Judge is going to forgive you and let you go, because you cried repentance
First, Repentance truly means that one feels sorry for the VICTIM - in this case the owner of the parked car
That could be a single mother with kids who drives for Uber and now she can't - her kids might go hungry
.
To any judge that is whom matters - the Victim - not the criminal crying boo-hoo!
Any judge will say, "stop crying. Stop feeling sorry for YOURSELF! This is not about you!"
Next, the Judge will say, "Apologize to the VICTIM, not to me! It is THEY who need to forgive you"
Third and this the most important - "you must compensate the victim for the loss of income. And then pay for the repairs to her car!"
Making amends, setting things right is the most important part
.
And then only then is Justice served!
And then only then Forgiveness is EARNED! Forgiveness is not given, it is EARNED!
That is the right way to do things
.
As I posted any Parent who had his or her child abducted, wants her back - not indulge in hate for the criminal
Those who have been cheated by the likes of Madoff, would want their money back and not about putting Madoff in jail
Justice is about not giving in to hate - sure we want the criminals caught, punished but the most important thing here is to make the
Victim whole - then and only then is Justice served
.
But when it comes to religion, Christians and Muslims do not want to make amends, set things right because they will have to be down here to do it!
Reincarnation!
Nope, not having it! And so enters a nice, forgiving God!
Will nicely listen to our cries of repentance and will forgive us! Help us cheat our victims!
.
Amazed that not one judge, lawyer, law student or even those with common sense do not speak up!
Again and again I am amazed how religion gets away with pushing immorality, the back door way out

Except, the repaired car doesn't make the single mother whole. What about the Uber fares she didn't earn while her car was being fixed or the school days her kid missed when she couldn't take them to school, or the decreased resale value of her now repaired car? You mentioned earlier that in order for your definition of "justice" to occur, murdered victims need to come back to life, as if the murder never happened. I'm just holding you to your own standard with the parked car incident. Again, not a completely unreasonable definition. Just one that essentially no one else shares and has zero practical application in, you know... Real Life.

Making amends where possible is an important part of "restorative justice". As well as a specfic punishment that the law in a particular jurisdiction prescibes for a driving offense, such as loss of driver licence, a judge would order the perpetrator to compensate the victim for damage to her car, and perhaps for what she will have lost in uber fares that she would have earned had her car not been damaged.

Some damages cannot be remedied at law. Others can be remedied to some extent. Obviously, murder cannot be undone. In such cases, justice at Common Law will be about punishment and deterrence.

Restorative justice is about compensating victims. "Retributive justice" is about punishing perpetrators. Whilst a court of law cannot bring a murder victim back to life, in some jurisdictions a victims family can mount a civil case and sue for damages. However, this would only be an option if the perpetrator had any money and the damages likely to be awarded were more than the cost of mounting the case.

People are wont to disparage the law and lawyers. However, whilst the law is not in a position to remedy all wrongs, it is better than nothing. And it is better than "self help" whereby we each take whatever vengence we can against those who wrong us.

Vanamali Thotapalli wrote: ↑August 5th, 2024, 10:10 pm Justice is about making the victim whole, not about punishing the criminal
If you drove drunk one night and crashed into a parked car - in the light of the day, of course one is repentant
But no Judge is going to forgive you and let you go, because you cried repentance
First, Repentance truly means that one feels sorry for the VICTIM - in this case the owner of the parked car
That could be a single mother with kids who drives for Uber and now she can't - her kids might go hungry
.
To any judge that is whom matters - the Victim - not the criminal crying boo-hoo!
Any judge will say, "stop crying. Stop feeling sorry for YOURSELF! This is not about you!"
Next, the Judge will say, "Apologize to the VICTIM, not to me! It is THEY who need to forgive you"
Third and this the most important - "you must compensate the victim for the loss of income. And then pay for the repairs to her car!"
Making amends, setting things right is the most important part
.
And then only then is Justice served!
And then only then Forgiveness is EARNED! Forgiveness is not given, it is EARNED!
That is the right way to do things
.
As I posted any Parent who had his or her child abducted, wants her back - not indulge in hate for the criminal
Those who have been cheated by the likes of Madoff, would want their money back and not about putting Madoff in jail
Justice is about not giving in to hate - sure we want the criminals caught, punished but the most important thing here is to make the
Victim whole - then and only then is Justice served
.
But when it comes to religion, Christians and Muslims do not want to make amends, set things right because they will have to be down here to do it!
Reincarnation!
Nope, not having it! And so enters a nice, forgiving God!
Will nicely listen to our cries of repentance and will forgive us! Help us cheat our victims!
.
Amazed that not one judge, lawyer, law student or even those with common sense do not speak up!
Again and again I am amazed how religion gets away with pushing immorality, the back door way out

Not drinking and driving is not a moral intention if the only reason for the intention is to keep oneself out of trouble.
The religious belief that God will forgive if one feels remorse and genuinely repents , makes the sinner whole again and ready to be a better person. Not every religious person is as cynical as you imply in your last sentence.

The only place vengeance looks good is in great stories. Vengeance is just a tool for destruction. Why do we have such sense of repaying evil. But we don't use that same energy to chase repaying great friends.

Wilfred Patrick wrote: ↑August 6th, 2024, 4:42 am The only place vengeance looks good is in great stories. Vengeance is just a tool for destruction. Why do we have such sense of repaying evil. But we don't use that same energy to chase repaying great friends.

Yes, this puts vengeance into its true position. It's destructive, not constructive.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑August 6th, 2024, 2:34 am Making amends where possible is an important part of "restorative justice". As well as a specfic punishment that the law in a particular jurisdiction prescibes for a driving offense, such as loss of driver licence, a judge would order the perpetrator to compensate the victim for damage to her car, and perhaps for what she will have lost in uber fares that she would have earned had her car not been damaged.

Some damages cannot be remedied at law. Others can be remedied to some extent. Obviously, murder cannot be undone. In such cases, justice at Common Law will be about punishment and deterrence.

Restorative justice is about compensating victims. "Retributive justice" is about punishing perpetrators. Whilst a court of law cannot bring a murder victim back to life, in some jurisdictions a victims family can mount a civil case and sue for damages. However, this would only be an option if the perpetrator had any money and the damages likely to be awarded were more than the cost of mounting the case.

People are wont to disparage the law and lawyers. However, whilst the law is not in a position to remedy all wrongs, it is better than nothing. And it is better than "self help" whereby we each take whatever vengence we can against those who wrong us.

I agree with most (if not all) of what you posted, though in my lexicon the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" is who is performing the act. To my understanding justice is meted out by the Justice system, whereas vengeance is performed by the victim or their family.

LuckyR wrote: ↑August 6th, 2024, 1:40 am Except, the repaired car doesn't make the single mother whole. What about the Uber fares she didn't earn while her car was being fixed or the school days her kid missed when she couldn't take them to school, or the decreased resale value of her now repaired car? You mentioned earlier that in order for your definition of "justice" to occur, murdered victims need to come back to life, as if the murder never happened. I'm just holding you to your own standard with the parked car incident. Again, not a completely unreasonable definition. Just one that essentially no one else shares and has zero practical application in, you know... Real Life.

Yes the Judge will make the guilty pay not just for the damages but also for the wages lost & as well as the decreased value of her car
he is not going to say you only owe her just the repair costs

Reincarnation gives the murdered victims a new life
I can't imagine that little child growing up in Heaven without her mom, dad, grandparents, rest of her family, school, friends and the only life that she had ever known and growing up in a Charity Retirement Home full of aged people shuffling about, snoring away in their armchairs
For a child or any young person - Heaven would be horrible

So basically, that is how murdered victims would get Justice