Philosophy Discussion Forums

Belinda wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:42 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 20th, 2024, 4:59 pm

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 20th, 2024, 3:11 pm I am appalled at all wars yes, but particularly at the Jews acting in such a barbaric manner [because I expect more of them and us].

Thank you for making clear the double standards that you and others hold.

Palestine's supporters see them as primitive and barbaric, so we cannot hold them to the same standards as Israel. The "noble savages" so beloved by virtue-signallers seemingly have no moral agency, so none can be expected from them. They can cut off heads and hammer nails into women's vaginas because they don't know any better.

BTW, it was not always Palestine's land. It was a mix of Syria, Jordan and Egypt that was called Palestine in 1948 during the annexation, which was in response to the fact that many Jewish refugees had moved there are were being slaughtered by the Arabs. So the Jews fought back (there was nowhere else for them, but no one cares about that, only what Palestinians) and there were constant wars. The world attempted to stop the fighting by creating Israel, but the Arabs will never stop fighting because their hatred of Jews is extreme.

Maybe white Europe need to start slaughtering all those Islamic refugees and economic migrants who have flooded in. That's basically what the Arabs of the land not yet known as Palestine did. However, it seems that slaughtering refugees is fine if they are Jews.

Double standards everywhere, and zero accountability for Hamas and Palestine because their best friends in the west believe that Palestinians are too stupid, mindless, primitive and incompetent to be expected to behave properly.

More than 35,000 Palestinians – the majority of them said to be women and children – have been killed by Israel since it launched its military offensive in response to last October’s Hamas attack, when 1,200 Israelis, mostly civilians, were killed and another 250 were taken hostage.

Today .Guardian newspaper.

The Guardian has nothing to say about Sudan. I saw one article where it decried the lack of news about Sudan compared with Palestine, and that was it. No one cares. Only Palestinians matter.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 6:26 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 19th, 2024, 8:49 pm You are the one posting propaganda.

If I have posted propaganda on this site, please point it out. I will immediately withdraw it, and apologise.

There are too many instances to mention, including dismissing objective information as Zionist propaganda.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 19th, 2024, 8:49 pm You are the one posting propaganda.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 6:26 am If I have posted propaganda on this site, please point it out. I will immediately withdraw it, and apologise.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 7:00 am There are too many instances to mention, including dismissing objective information as Zionist propaganda.

That isn't really good enough. You've made the accusation, so provide evidence. Especially evidence of independently fact-checked "objective" information I have "dismissed". Then I will withdraw it, and apologise, as I have said.


...Or withdraw your allegation(s).

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 8:43 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 19th, 2024, 8:49 pm You are the one posting propaganda.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 6:26 am If I have posted propaganda on this site, please point it out. I will immediately withdraw it, and apologise.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 7:00 am There are too many instances to mention, including dismissing objective information as Zionist propaganda.

That isn't really good enough. You've made the accusation, so provide evidence. Especially evidence of independently fact-checked "objective" information I have "dismissed". Then I will withdraw it, and apologise, as I have said.


...Or withdraw your allegation(s). 🤔

I am not trawling through the thread for your Hamas propaganda . You falsely claimed that I as spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters. Your favourite news outlet, The Guardian, is so intensely anti-Semitic it's amazing that there's not an outcry.

My point has always being that criticism of Israel is wildly disproportionate as compared with all that's going on elsewhere in the world. There can only be one reason for this - anti-Semitism. You call that Zionist propaganda but it's just logic.

You have shown yourself to be obsessed with saving Palestine, yet I have not seen you show one iota of similar concern for any other group - only those "oppressed" by Jews, seemingly.

Billions of people feel hatred. Billions are prejudiced. You are just one more. You are allowed to hate Israel. It does not make you an evil person. However, your hostility is obvious and palpable, and deeply anti-philosophical.

By Palestine's logic, most Australians and Americans should be killed or deported back to England. It's naive and childish - ignoring how the world has operated for millennia, one strong group dominating and taking over another. All of that is seemingly fine, unless the strong group happens to be white or Jewish, in which case they are deemed OPPRESSORS by the closet Marxists.

Arabs and blacks, though, are free to rape and slaughter all they like - there is never criticism from The Guardian and the like about Islamic and tribal atrocities. Certainly no complaint about the almost million people killed in Syrian and Yemeni fighting - not a peep or criticism against Iran and it's proxies. People die in droves in Sudan ... and the Guardian turns away to focus on those dastardly Jews.

Presumably the Guardian and its most dedicated readers believe that Arabs and blacks are too primitive and stupid to warrant any expectations of good behaviour, and are treasure as "noble savages". With friends like that ...

Interesting article about Palestine mania: https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/2 ... ine-mania/

The singularity of Palestine in the woke brain is curious, to say the least. To return to tragic Aaron – why did he not feel as much fury over his own military’s horrendous actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya as he did over Israel’s pursuit of the pogromists of Hamas in Gaza? Such is the singularity of Palestine that it appears to blind people even to the crimes of their own colleagues. All that matters is hating Israel and loving Palestine.

There is a powerful vicarious streak in Gen Z’s Palestine mania – unable, perhaps unwilling, to confront the crises of their own societies, they take comfort in the fairytale narrative they have fashioned around Israel-Gaza. Where fixing what ails the West is complicated, pontificating over Palestine is easy. It provides an instant glow of righteousness to a generation reluctant to address the legion problems their own nations and communities face.

Palestine mania unnerves me. This is not normal politics. It has nothing in common with the anti-war or anti-imperialist campaigns of old. Witness the swarms of Gen Zers and millennials on social media confessing to feeling bereft or devastated or plunged into turmoil by Gaza. This is luxuriant emotionalism masquerading as radical critique, therapy disguised as politics.

Palestine mania represents the subjugation of the complex conflicts of the Middle East to the psychosocial needs of privileged Westerners. There is an ironically neo-colonialist bent to this exploitation of foreign grief for domestic gain. I’m sorry that Aaron Bushnell thought that Israel is so uniquely cruel, so unjust, that he had no choice but to sacrifice himself [by self-immolation] in opposition to it. He was wrong. The Palestine mania hit him hard. RIP.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 6:58 am

Belinda wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:42 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 20th, 2024, 4:59 pm

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 20th, 2024, 3:11 pm I am appalled at all wars yes, but particularly at the Jews acting in such a barbaric manner [because I expect more of them and us].

Thank you for making clear the double standards that you and others hold.

Palestine's supporters see them as primitive and barbaric, so we cannot hold them to the same standards as Israel. The "noble savages" so beloved by virtue-signallers seemingly have no moral agency, so none can be expected from them. They can cut off heads and hammer nails into women's vaginas because they don't know any better.

BTW, it was not always Palestine's land. It was a mix of Syria, Jordan and Egypt that was called Palestine in 1948 during the annexation, which was in response to the fact that many Jewish refugees had moved there are were being slaughtered by the Arabs. So the Jews fought back (there was nowhere else for them, but no one cares about that, only what Palestinians) and there were constant wars. The world attempted to stop the fighting by creating Israel, but the Arabs will never stop fighting because their hatred of Jews is extreme.

Maybe white Europe need to start slaughtering all those Islamic refugees and economic migrants who have flooded in. That's basically what the Arabs of the land not yet known as Palestine did. However, it seems that slaughtering refugees is fine if they are Jews.

Double standards everywhere, and zero accountability for Hamas and Palestine because their best friends in the west believe that Palestinians are too stupid, mindless, primitive and incompetent to be expected to behave properly.

More than 35,000 Palestinians – the majority of them said to be women and children – have been killed by Israel since it launched its military offensive in response to last October’s Hamas attack, when 1,200 Israelis, mostly civilians, were killed and another 250 were taken hostage.

Today .Guardian newspaper.

The Guardian has nothing to say about Sudan. I saw one article where it decried the lack of news about Sudan compared with Palestine, and that was it. No one cares. Only Palestinians matter.

Sorry to hear that about the Guardian not covering Sudan. I recommend Al Jazeera as a source that you will find more balanced,

https://www.aljazeera.com/where/sudan/

also

https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... r-in-sudan

https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... r-in-sudan

Educated people generally are not the proper objects of your blame. You should rather blame us on Philosophy Club.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 8:43 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 19th, 2024, 8:49 pm You are the one posting propaganda.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 6:26 am If I have posted propaganda on this site, please point it out. I will immediately withdraw it, and apologise.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 7:00 am There are too many instances to mention, including dismissing objective information as Zionist propaganda.

That isn't really good enough. You've made the accusation, so provide evidence. Especially evidence of independently fact-checked "objective" information I have "dismissed". Then I will withdraw it, and apologise, as I have said.


...Or withdraw your allegation(s).

I am not trawling through the thread for your Hamas propaganda . You falsely claimed that I as spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters. Your favourite news outlet, The Guardian, is so intensely anti-Semitic it's amazing that there's not an outcry.

My point has always being that criticism of Israel is wildly disproportionate as compared with all that's going on elsewhere in the world. There can only be one reason for this - anti-Semitism. You call that Zionist propaganda but it's just logic.

You have shown yourself to be obsessed with saving Palestine, yet I have not seen you show one iota of similar concern for any other group - only those "oppressed" by Jews, seemingly.

Billions of people feel hatred. Billions are prejudiced. You are just one more. You are allowed to hate Israel. It does not make you an evil person. However, your hostility is obvious and palpable, and deeply anti-philosophical.

By Palestine's logic, most Australians and Americans should be killed or deported back to England. It's naive and childish - ignoring how the world has operated for millennia, one strong group dominating and taking over another. All of that is seemingly fine, unless the strong group happens to be white or Jewish, in which case they are deemed OPPRESSORS by the closet Marxists.

Arabs and blacks, though, are free to rape and slaughter all they like - there is never criticism from The Guardian and the like about Islamic and tribal atrocities. Certainly no complaint about the almost million people killed in Syrian and Yemeni fighting - not a peep or criticism against Iran and it's proxies. People die in droves in Sudan ... and the Guardian turns away to focus on those dastardly Jews.

Presumably the Guardian and its most dedicated readers believe that Arabs and blacks are too primitive and stupid to warrant any expectations of good behaviour, and are treasure as "noble savages". With friends like that ...

The European educated public are not to blame for lack of balance. We who are having this conversation on the online philosophy club are the proper objects of your blame.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm You falsely claimed that I was spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters.

You posted as fact the allegations Israel made against UNRWA workers. These allegations have now been examined by *two* independent inquiries, and found to be without substance. Israel has not offered any evidence to back up its claims, that have now been shown to be Zionist propaganda. And you posted them here, several times.

You also repeated allegations of hideous attacks, of babies torn from their mother's wombs by Hamas! No evidence was forthcoming, then or now. Zionist propaganda.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 7:07 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm You falsely claimed that I was spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters.

You posted as fact the allegations Israel made against UNRWA workers. These allegations have now been examined by *two* independent inquiries, and found to be without substance. Israel has not offered any evidence to back up its claims, that have now been shown to be Zionist propaganda. And you posted them here, several times.

You also repeated allegations of hideous attacks, of babies torn from their mother's wombs by Hamas! No evidence was forthcoming, then or now. Zionist propaganda.

I suppose you didn't check about the recent IMPACT-SE (NGO) report, making clear that a number of Hamas operatives were employed by the UNRWA, and that they participated in the 7 October attacks.

I don't believe that I said anything about babies torn from wombs either, which appears to just be your imagination, like so much that you attribute to me.

Tell me, what's happening in Sudan? Oh, you don't know? Is that because it wasn't force-fed to you via mainstream media, especially the execrable The Guardian, whose anti-Semitism could not be more blatant, despite their regular puff pieces explaining that their hostility towards Israel and its journalist's clear wish for its annihilation has nothing to do with Jews and anti-Semitism.

Israel is in a similar position to Ukraine and Taiwan. What's left of the Russian empire wants the return of Ukraine. What's left of the Chinese empire wants the return of Taiwan. What's left of the Ottoman empire wants the return of Israel. Given the extreme power differentials, I expect all three of these nations to not exist by 2100.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 5:57 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 7:07 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm You falsely claimed that I was spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters.

You posted as fact the allegations Israel made against UNRWA workers. These allegations have now been examined by *two* independent inquiries, and found to be without substance. Israel has not offered any evidence to back up its claims, that have now been shown to be Zionist propaganda. And you posted them here, several times.

You also repeated allegations of hideous attacks, of babies torn from their mother's wombs by Hamas! No evidence was forthcoming, then or now. Zionist propaganda.

I suppose you didn't check about the recent IMPACT-SE (NGO) report, making clear that a number of Hamas operatives were employed by the UNRWA, and that they participated in the 7 October attacks.

I don't believe that I said anything about babies torn from wombs either, which appears to just be your imagination, like so much that you attribute to me.

Tell me, what's happening in Sudan? Oh, you don't know? Is that because it wasn't force-fed to you via mainstream media, especially the execrable The Guardian, whose anti-Semitism could not be more blatant, despite their regular puff pieces explaining that their hostility towards Israel and its journalist's clear wish for its annihilation has nothing to do with Jews and anti-Semitism.

Israel is in a similar position to Ukraine and Taiwan. What's left of the Russian empire wants the return of Ukraine. What's left of the Chinese empire wants the return of Taiwan. What's left of the Ottoman empire wants the return of Israel. Given the extreme power differentials, I expect all three of these nations to not exist by 2100.

Yes true. So what? Are we not to blame facilitators such as Netanyahu , Israeli settlers, and Putin for their cruelty ?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 5:57 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 7:07 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm You falsely claimed that I was spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters.

You posted as fact the allegations Israel made against UNRWA workers. These allegations have now been examined by *two* independent inquiries, and found to be without substance. Israel has not offered any evidence to back up its claims, that have now been shown to be Zionist propaganda. And you posted them here, several times.

You also repeated allegations of hideous attacks, of babies torn from their mother's wombs by Hamas! No evidence was forthcoming, then or now. Zionist propaganda.

I suppose you didn't check about the recent IMPACT-SE (NGO) report, making clear that a number of Hamas operatives were employed by the UNRWA, and that they participated in the 7 October attacks.

I don't believe that I said anything about babies torn from wombs either, which appears to just be your imagination, like so much that you attribute to me.

Tell me, what's happening in Sudan? Oh, you don't know? Is that because it wasn't force-fed to you via mainstream media, especially the execrable The Guardian, whose anti-Semitism could not be more blatant, despite their regular puff pieces explaining that their hostility towards Israel and its journalist's clear wish for its annihilation has nothing to do with Jews and anti-Semitism.

Israel is in a similar position to Ukraine and Taiwan. What's left of the Russian empire wants the return of Ukraine. What's left of the Chinese empire wants the return of Taiwan. What's left of the Ottoman empire wants the return of Israel. Given the extreme power differentials, I expect all three of these nations to not exist by 2100.

Yes true. So what? Are we not to blame facilitators such as Netanyahu , Israeli settlers, and Putin for their cruelty ?
Regarding the media outlets you choose and those you execrate, I wonder if you are not sufficiently cynicaL as to who pays for the content and tone of the news outlets. I mean, there actually is free journalism. Journalism is like historiography in that both testify as to what happened. While it's impossible for anyone to be totally impartial, don't you agree that some media are owned by wealthy people and politicians?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 7:07 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 21st, 2024, 3:19 pm You falsely claimed that I was spreading Zionist propaganda and didn't back it up - typical of the double-standards of anti-Semitic Hamas supporters.

You posted as fact the allegations Israel made against UNRWA workers. These allegations have now been examined by *two* independent inquiries, and found to be without substance. Israel has not offered any evidence to back up its claims, that have now been shown to be Zionist propaganda. And you posted them here, several times.

You also repeated allegations of hideous attacks, of babies torn from their mother's wombs by Hamas! No evidence was forthcoming, then or now. Zionist propaganda.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2024, 5:57 pm I suppose you didn't check about the recent IMPACT-SE (NGO) report, making clear that a number of Hamas operatives were employed by the UNRWA, and that they participated in the 7 October attacks.

The report mentions teachers, and condemns their teaching. Your original report of Israel's claims were that UNRWA staff participated in the October attack. However, if teachers have been teaching hate, I oppose it unconditionally.

UNRWA wrote: UNRWA has more than 30,000 staff across the region, including 13,000 in Gaza, the majority of them Palestinian. UNRWA takes seriously its responsibility to ensure that its operations and staff adhere to UN values and core humanitarian principles.

The report you mention criticises 14 teachers, out of 13000. This is unfortunate, and wrong (if true), but 14 out of 13000 or more is less than 1 in 1000, when local UNRWA employees are necessarily drawn from the local population. In fact, less than 1 in 1000 is exemplary, wouldn't you say?

The prevalence of anti-Jewish prejudice (as opposed to anti-Israeli sentiment, which is quite different) in West European countries is many times higher than that, which is still wrong, but vastly exceeds the achievement of UNRWA, who have kept the numbers down to a mere 14.

If teachers were recruited in occupied France during WW2, say 13000 of them, do you think they could've kept the number of those who preached hate toward Nazis down to 14? I think not.

As soon as problems were raised, UNRWA dismissed staff who had not kept to their standards of neutrality.

So you have UNRWA members:

1) teaching hate to innocent children

2) a small minority participating in the attack

3) UNRWA members seen (and filmed) celebrating after the attack.

This is part of the UN, which is supposed to be objective. However, with so many Arab states, and some members joining them, keen to do anything to undermine the west, the UN cannot be trusted at all any more.

Wikipedia wrote: In January 2024, Israel alleged that 12 UNRWA employees participated in the attacks in various capacities,[6][7][8] later expanding this claim to 19, alongside 400 personnel.[9] Israel also alleged that around ten percent of the UNRWA's 13,000 employees in the Gaza Strip have connections to Islamist militant groups, primarily Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and that 190 UNRWA employees were militants.[10]Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner-general of UNRWA, said the organization had dismissed the employees concerned,[a] and launched an investigation.[12][13][14][15] Lazzarini clarified on 9 February that he had fired the staff without looking into any evidence, deciding that swift action was the priority in the circumstances.[16] On 19 February, Lazzarini stated Israel had not provided any evidence to support its claim.[17] In late February, a US intelligence report cast doubt on the Israeli claims.[18] An UNRWA report from February 2024 stated that Israel coerced some of its employees to falsely admit Hamas links under torture.[19][20]

An independent Review Group led by Catherine Colonna published a report on 22 April 2024 finding that the agency had structures in place to ensure neutrality, although issues remain,[21] that Israel had not provided evidence for its claims of significant UNRWA employee involvement in terrorist organisations and that UNRWA is indispensable to Palestinians in the region.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2024, 7:55 am If teachers were recruited in occupied France during WW2, say 13000 of them, do you think they could've kept the number of those who preached hate toward Nazis down to 14? I think not.

The UNRWA has any proven links with Hamas, and their education is famously anti-Israel.

They have staff publicly expressing political views, using textbooks with problematic content, and politicised staff unions that make threats against UNRWA management.

"In Gaza, UNRWA's neutrality challenges included the size of the operation, with most personnel being locally recruited and also recipients of UNRWA services, the review said.

From 2017 to 2022, the report said the annual number of allegations of neutrality being breached at UNRWA ranged from seven to 55.

But between January 2022 and February 2024, UN investigators received 151 allegations, most related to social media posts "made public by external sources," it said."

This time I took the information from a strongly anti-Israel source, the ABC https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-23/ ... /103756518. So, you can be sure that this article does all it can to defend the UNRWA.

Funny how sources are never questioned unless a person disagrees.