Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Neil Wallace]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

Assuming the Christian God's existence, then the issue comes down to responsibility for Evil in the world and the Christian Free will argument.
According to Christianity the reason for the evil of the world is due to failure of human's to obey God''s will. While God created all, it would be assumed that he could prevent Evil, and to not do so would be an evil act.
Christian reasoning is that the Evil of the world is allowed to give human beings free will to chose.
There are those who reject this notion, and claim that free will does not justify the incalculable suffering of life on Earth and that it would be better had God not devised this curious science experiment.
There are probably few who directly say this as they will tend rather to the Stendhal position:
God's only excuse is that he does not exist.

According to Christianity the suffering of the world caused by humanities sin will pay off in the end with the Second Coming of Jesus to Earth.

I personally am minded to the view that the Christian God does not exist and hence is not responsible for any Evil in the world due to his non existence.
I use the male "his" due to accepted cultural definitions.

[Anand_Haqq]

. Being perfect ... Why is it so ... ? That's a fault of God ...

. Because with perfection, nothing can evolve anymore ... at least theoretically ...

. And you can see the whole existence evolving as a continuum ... as an oceanic flux ...

. Hence God does not exist ...

. Existence is self sufficient ...

. If God is self sufficient ... Why not existence itself ... ?

. And science explains it perfectly ...

[Greatest I am]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

There are so many instances. Where would you like to start? Genesis?

The first goof I see is Yahweh creating Adam and forgetting that to reproduce he needed a wife. That is where the rib woman notion was invented.

That is me ignoring the other creation of A & E doublet.

The second error is Yahweh trying to deny A & E all knowledge of everything.

Everything is subject to good and evil and that knowledge was in the tree that Yahweh tried and failed to have A & E ignore.

What is your view of the story of Eden?

To the Jews who wrote it, it is seen as Original Virtue where man showed his intelligence and virtue.

To Christians who basically stole the myth, it is seen as our Original Sin, even as Christians sing the opposite. That Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Which version do you see as more accurate?

Do you see the value in sin?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Your argument is a non sequitur fallacy since there is nothing to support your claim that 'God' is trying to strength us by forcing us to have to deal with 'evil'. Our ability to deal with nature evil (and the evil we produce ourselves) comes from our natural ability to survive; if we DIDN'T have this ability we won't even be alive. I'm imagine if we ever encountered a problem that was bigger than we could handle (like an asteroid about to destroy the earth), theist could claim that it too was part of his plan even if it contradicts this belief that 'God' strengthening in order to deal with evil.

In a nutshell, your argument is just another example of someone trying to claim that 'God did it' and/or 'it is part of his will' when we don't know (or we don't like the answer) to how something works in the world around us.

Think of the dualism of both god and evolution.

Can I have you look at evolution and think of cooperation as good and competition as evil because it creates a loser who will think evil has befallen him or her?

If you can and, then you might see what our friend means by the evil parts of life, where we lose at a competition/evil/Satan, and understanding it for what it is, will indeed strengthen the loser, or let him know he is competing in the wrong field or area.

As you might see, I have no problem of evil when I wear my naturalist hat.

Nature explains all human to human evil quite easilly.

Regards
DL

[Anand_Haqq]

. Nothing ... Absolutely nothing.

. How can a reflection of something be wrong in anything ... ?

. God is a reflection of your psychosocial need of having a father figure as a protector; as your protector; it is The protector ...

. God is a not a discovery: God is a mind's invention.

. God is the subtlest pretext ever created by the mind to justify the absurd of existence; to justify that which cannot be justify by any syllogism created by the mind; by reason ...

. Nothing more ...

[Greatest I am]

. Nothing ... Absolutely nothing.

. How can a reflection of something be wrong in anything ... ?

. God is a reflection of your psychosocial need of having a father figure as a protector; as your protector; it is The protector ...

. God is a not a discovery: God is a mind's invention.

. God is the subtlest pretext ever created by the mind to justify the absurd of existence; to justify that which cannot be justify by any syllogism created by the mind; by reason ...

. Nothing more ...

I mostly like the gods we invent.

I do not like the genocidal ones, whose believers are to help to end man's evolution. Think Armageddon.

Are the many gods wrong where they have promoted homophobia and misogyny?

Are people wrong in practicing those immoral divisive practices?

Regards
DL

[Neil Wallace]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

For me the wrong of the Christian God is the well trodden "Problem of Evil" , and the failure of the "Free Will Argument" to excuse the enormous suffering of Life on Earth.

An Omniscient God who is all, therefore has the ability to prevent the suffering of the world which they created.
The reason given why God does not do this and is not responsible for the suffering they created is to allow humans Free Will the ability to choose between Good and Evil.
There are many problems with this line of reasoning.
For example God could have chosen not to run this particular social experiment and avoid the untold suffering of countless innocents
God could have set the threshold differently so that Humans were better able to resist evil
God Could intervene when the social experiment was pointless Autzschwitz etc.
God could only apply the experiment to sentient creatures avoiding the suffering of animals who cannot choose between god and evil

And so on indefintely. In the light of all this God's only real excuse as Stendhal said - Is that he doesn't exist.

[Belindi]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

For me the wrong of the Christian God is the well trodden "Problem of Evil" , and the failure of the "Free Will Argument" to excuse the enormous suffering of Life on Earth.

An Omniscient God who is all, therefore has the ability to prevent the suffering of the world which they created.
The reason given why God does not do this and is not responsible for the suffering they created is to allow humans Free Will the ability to choose between Good and Evil.
There are many problems with this line of reasoning.
For example God could have chosen not to run this particular social experiment and avoid the untold suffering of countless innocents
God could have set the threshold differently so that Humans were better able to resist evil
God Could intervene when the social experiment was pointless Autzschwitz etc.
God could only apply the experiment to sentient creatures avoiding the suffering of animals who cannot choose between god and evil

And so on indefintely. In the light of all this God's only real excuse as Stendhal said - Is that he doesn't exist.

There may be two deities; a deity that is the creator, and a deity that is synonymous with the Good.

[Neil Wallace]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

For me the wrong of the Christian God is the well trodden "Problem of Evil" , and the failure of the "Free Will Argument" to excuse the enormous suffering of Life on Earth.

An Omniscient God who is all, therefore has the ability to prevent the suffering of the world which they created.
The reason given why God does not do this and is not responsible for the suffering they created is to allow humans Free Will the ability to choose between Good and Evil.
There are many problems with this line of reasoning.
For example God could have chosen not to run this particular social experiment and avoid the untold suffering of countless innocents
God could have set the threshold differently so that Humans were better able to resist evil
God Could intervene when the social experiment was pointless Autzschwitz etc.
God could only apply the experiment to sentient creatures avoiding the suffering of animals who cannot choose between god and evil

And so on indefintely. In the light of all this God's only real excuse as Stendhal said - Is that he doesn't exist.

There may be two deities; a deity that is the creator, and a deity that is synonymous with the Good.

Who knows, but that doesn't seem to be the Christian Biblical concept of God, unless it is some pretty unusual interpretation. Although to be fair there have been all kinds of interpretations of the Christian Bible.

[Belindi]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

For me the wrong of the Christian God is the well trodden "Problem of Evil" , and the failure of the "Free Will Argument" to excuse the enormous suffering of Life on Earth.

An Omniscient God who is all, therefore has the ability to prevent the suffering of the world which they created.
The reason given why God does not do this and is not responsible for the suffering they created is to allow humans Free Will the ability to choose between Good and Evil.
There are many problems with this line of reasoning.
For example God could have chosen not to run this particular social experiment and avoid the untold suffering of countless innocents
God could have set the threshold differently so that Humans were better able to resist evil
God Could intervene when the social experiment was pointless Autzschwitz etc.
God could only apply the experiment to sentient creatures avoiding the suffering of animals who cannot choose between god and evil

And so on indefintely. In the light of all this God's only real excuse as Stendhal said - Is that he doesn't exist.

There may be two deities; a deity that is the creator, and a deity that is synonymous with the Good.

Who knows, but that doesn't seem to be the Christian Biblical concept of God, unless it is some pretty unusual interpretation. Although to be fair there have been all kinds of interpretations of the Christian Bible.

I guess it's a heresy.

[Neil Wallace]

You could have Jesus as the Good Deity, God as the Old Testimant Creator Deity, then you would be fairly orthodox and call my position a heresy. The Bible's good that way in its flexibility. Glad its not the 17th Century. Hide the matches and kindling wood.

[Belindi]

You could have Jesus as the Good Deity, God as the Old Testimant Creator Deity, then you would be fairly orthodox and call my position a heresy. The Bible's good that way in its flexibility. Glad its not the 17th Century. Hide the matches and kindling wood.

I did wonder about that solution to the problem of evil. The Holy Trinity provides for the Creator and the Good as both separate and one. Jesus said that he was the way to the Father by which I take Jesus to mean that he showed what moral goodness was and how it counteracted moral evil.
Jesus unfortunately for us did not tell us how to make good of natural evil such the suffering and pain of illness, floods, wars, or wildfires. For good that arises from these evils we have to look to the benefits of natural selection and the regeneration of plant life however these benefits don't feel like they compensate for feelings of pain and loss.

As far as I know, Job is the only character in The Bible that deals with the problem of natural evil. He found no solution to the problem, except for resignation in the form of a hopeless faith in God. Job was a practical man who saw that we cannot be free without faith that we can act to overcome evils.

[NeilWallace]

Natural Evil though is still created by the Old Testiment Creator God.
Job's solution seems to be God created Evil but he works in mysterious ways so just have faith in that.
There seems to be other solutions though. A very simple one being to decide that God does not exist.

It is impossible to blame something for events when that something does not in fact Exist.

I agree with the questioner "What has God actually done wrong?" that many Atheists have an illogical angry blameful attitude towards something they do not believe exists.

For me Evil is a mixture of Natural and Human. God has done nothing wrong in that sense. Because there is no God.

[Steve3007]

Noah’s flood story was the epitome of protection, since, (if you go by the Word), the world was full of creatures that were wiping out humankind, aka nephilim.

Given how recently Neanderthals died out, has it ever been seriously suggested that this reference to a race of large and strong hominids might be a dim ancestral memory of them or of some other non-sapiens hominids? (I presume it has.) The evidence suggests that homo sapiens co-existed with possibly several other species of hominids for a very long time. Longer than the time since the last of them went extinct, possibly as little as 10,000 years ago. It seems likely that such an important phenomenon would survive in folk lore for a long time.

If so, it's interesting that we would reverse the story and tell ourselves that is was they who were driving us to extinction, and invoke our homo sapiens god as the corrector of this crime.

[Belindi]

Natural Evil though is still created by the Old Testiment Creator God.
Job's solution seems to be God created Evil but he works in mysterious ways so just have faith in that.
There seems to be other solutions though. A very simple one being to decide that God does not exist.

It is impossible to blame something for events when that something does not in fact Exist.

I agree with the questioner "What has God actually done wrong?" that many Atheists have an illogical angry blameful attitude towards something they do not believe exists.

For me Evil is a mixture of Natural and Human. God has done nothing wrong in that sense. Because there is no God.

The story of Job tells about the problem of evil for a larger audience than theists. The most aggressive atheist, together with everyone else, tries to make sense of the world as it appears to be. It seems to be the case for all thinking, feeling, observant people that a world with no evil is impossible. The evil that is the case seems to be necessary however much we rightfully hate and deplore it. I think Job was admirable and a good example to follow; despite the evil all around us and far away we each need to be getting on with active living and trying to make the world better. In the book Pilgrim's Progress, which is an allegory, despair is a giant called Giant Despair, who is one of the dangers the Pilgrim of the title must overcome. The Pilgrim's name is Everyman.

Pilgrim's Progress is usually interpreted as a Christian story. But like the Book of Job the scope of Pilgrim's Progress is far larger than the conventionally Christian view.