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[Xris]

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/ouconte ... ection=4.4

Yes times are a changing but that is no reason not to examine why we should be indoctrinating our kids.

[Grecorivera5150]

Just like we should oppose the abuse of instilling an immoral lifestyle on children, so we should give our young the opportunity to approach religion with an open mind.

This position seems completely untenable to me because of the implicit paradoxical dynamic involved with religious doctrine. When you have scripture that tells you to poke out your own eye because its better to lose an eye then have your entire being cast in to hell or to hack off your arm because it is betterto lose a limb then to lose your whole being in hell. Some of the scriptures are just bat **** crazy. When they are challenged by skeptics usually the response is that the scripture is poetic and metaphorical. This leads to an ongoing attempt at legitimizing religions by having a tactical approach to what scriptures are used which is represented by the many new denominations that pop up all over and to varrying levels of orthodoxy.


The only way I can see to really give children an opportunity to have an open mind about religion is to teach the history of religion at an early agae along with world history and cultural anthropology. The curriculum would have to be rooted in cause and effect and give specific on what religions where dominant in certain geographies through out history and explain the underlying affect of of religion in allowing governments to mobilize factions to go to war for terratorial or economic reasons. These instances are very well documented but are completely ignored by most primary education systems.

[Bermudj]

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/ouconte ... ection=4.4

Yes times are a changing but that is no reason not to examine why we should be indoctrinating our kids.

Thanks for the link.

[Xris]

This position seems completely untenable to me because of the implicit paradoxical dynamic involved with religious doctrine. When you have scripture that tells you to poke out your own eye because its better to lose an eye then have your entire being cast in to hell or to hack off your arm because it is betterto lose a limb then to lose your whole being in hell. Some of the scriptures are just bat **** crazy. When they are challenged by skeptics usually the response is that the scripture is poetic and metaphorical. This leads to an ongoing attempt at legitimizing religions by having a tactical approach to what scriptures are used which is represented by the many new denominations that pop up all over and to varrying levels of orthodoxy.


The only way I can see to really give children an opportunity to have an open mind about religion is to teach the history of religion at an early agae along with world history and cultural anthropology. The curriculum would have to be rooted in cause and effect and give specific on what religions where dominant in certain geographies through out history and explain the underlying affect of of religion in allowing governments to mobilize factions to go to war for terratorial or economic reasons. These instances are very well documented but are completely ignored by most primary education systems.

Sorry I do not understand your objection? Teaching them the history of religion is part and parcel of children approaching religion with an open mind. I think the fear of our religous community would well founded if we started introducing children to the concept of god at an age where they had the ability to reason. I think for the majority, their reaction would be incredibility that such a stupid concept would be even considered. Religion would soon be looked upon like Greek mythology with fascination rather than avid attention.

[Bermudj]

...When you have scripture that tells you to poke out your own eye because its better to lose an eye then have your entire being cast in to hell or to hack off your arm because it is betterto lose a limb then to lose your whole being in hell. Some of the scriptures are just bat **** crazy.....

I actually went to a Jesuit School for 1 year and a bit, I was 5 going to 6. After that all were secular schools with hardly any religion in them. Is what you wrote truly taught to children in religious schools through the ages of 5-11?

[Grotto19]

Grotto wrote:



Quite right. Teach your children by precept and example the belief that they may use violence and oher bullying behaviour towards other kids to get what they want. Next they will teach their own children the same, because they are free to believe it.

This is a simply ludicrous statement. Firstly children will be taught something, if not by you than by others. If you do not take responsibility for what they learn that is a form of neglect. How can anyone teach a child something other than what they believe and consider themselves responsible. Also children learn bulling from their piers much more often than from their church.

I am a strong advocate against organised religion. But that is my opinion it is not a fact, thus I have no right to judge others, and neither do you. One could just as easily blame bad behavior on competitive sports, and certainly the pursuit of money as adults. So unless we all agree to raise our children as atheist monks there will always be items to scapegoat our problems with.

[Xris]

I actually went to a Jesuit School for 1 year and a bit, I was 5 going to 6. After that all were secular schools with hardly any religion in them. Is what you wrote truly taught to children in religious schools through the ages of 5-11?

I have no idea how it is taught now but my religous education consisted of writing freehand, page after page of christian scriptures. Not one mention of alternative faiths or the questioning of dogma.

[Fanman]

I think that one has to examine the motives of the parents who decide to give their children a religious education, in order to define whether or not doing so constitutes abuse. Parents may teach their children about religion to instil a good moral foundation. They may teach their children about Jesus, so that he may act as a role model to them. I don't think that such motives can be said to constitute child abuse, because the parent is only trying to do what is best for their children.

Atheists may argue that giving a child a religious education is abuse because they do not believe that God exists, but the dilema here is that theists do believe that God is real. And therefore theists will teach their children about God while atheists will not teach their children about God because they do not believe he exists.

Theists, may even argue, that a parent not giving their children a religious education is a form of abuse. To be specific, that it is a form of neglect - in not teaching their children the truth. I think that whether a person perceives that giving a child a religious education is a form of abuse, ultimately depends upon their own perception of religion.

[Xris]

Fanman to educate your children using jesus as an example does not concern me. It is the idea that you try to confirm his father is a supernatural figure that requires worship and devotion at such an early age, that worries me. If I express my disbelief in dogmatic terms to my children I would be just as guilty.

[Grecorivera5150]

Xris wrote

Sorry I do not understand your objection? Teaching them the history of religion is part and parcel of children approaching religion with an open mind. I think the fear of our religous community would well founded if we started introducing children to the concept of god at an age where they had the ability to reason. I think for the majority, their reaction would be incredibility that such a stupid concept would be even considered. Religion would soon be looked upon like Greek mythology with fascination rather than avid attention.

My response was to the fact that you lobbed the idea of an open minded religious education out there without any specifics on what that actually meant. I don't think there should be any interpretation specific scriptures at all. There should just be information about the impact of religion as a force of culture and nationalism. What was the predominant religion in this region and how what was the power level of the church in the government. I remember learning about the priesthood of ancient Egypt and of the Caste system and the Brahman in India but when you get towards the modern era everything about religious power suddenly went blank. This creates a disconnect for youth IMO about the reality of the impact of organized religion on political power and as a cultural influence.

-- Updated August 2nd, 2012, 2:59 pm to add the following --

I actually went to a Jesuit School for 1 year and a bit, I was 5 going to 6. After that all were secular schools with hardly any religion in them. Is what you wrote truly taught to children in religious schools through the ages of 5-11?

The stuff I wrote was stuff from the Book of Mathew. I have no formal religious education but Xris did say that he had to write scripture. I can imagine that the scriptures that where read were likely carefully chosen but you would have to ask him.

Children are curious though and if you tell a child hey this book has everything you need to know to live a good life then the children will likely try and explore it themselves which I did do as a kid without anyone guiding me. Between being told some of the thoughts I was thinking which are totally natural were sinful and temptations of the devil, that god was everywhere and trying to study the bible on my own it all was pretty much driving me crazy to the point of isolating myself from my friends and family. It challenged my intuition and I think it was my intuition and natural skepticism which originally had me trying to resist the pier pressure of my family that helped to pull me up out of the whole I was wallowing in.

[Misty]

I have no idea how it is taught now but my religous education consisted of writing freehand, page after page of christian scriptures. Not one mention of alternative faiths or the questioning of dogma.

Xris, What, may I ask, was your religious education? It sounds like you had a unique upbringing in that respect.

[Xris]

Further education is not the subject we are debating it is the indoctrination of young minds before they have the ability to reason. This includes the parents imposing their beliefs and primary schools funded by the tax payer teaching silly notions that jesus loves them. I oppose all of these and call it abuse. If young children were not exposed to this form of abuse further education would never be capable of indoctrination.

[Fanman]

Xris,

Like I said in my previous post. Christian theists believe that God is Jesus' father. Therefore, it is highly likely that they will teach their children the same thing. I think the reason that this worries you, is because you're an atheist. Therefore, you believe that children who are taught religion, are being taught a false doctrine. If your children ask you whether or not God exists and you say no, a theist would view that as lying to your children, or that you're unaware of God's existence. Whether or not that constitutes abuse is open to debate I think.

[Xris]

Xris, What, may I ask, was your religious education? It sounds like you had a unique upbringing in that respect.

Secondary modern, or should I say substandard in the 1950s. We were the factory fodder and education was mainly based on the ability to use your hands not your mind. RE was taught by a bigoted and schizophrenic christian scholar. My parents insisted I attended the local Baptist church and I was compelled to attend bible lessons. They did indoctrinate me for many years and as a result I was determined my children would be given the freedom of debate and serious consideration.

-- Updated Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:21 pm to add the following --

Xris,

Like I said in my previous post. Christian theists believe that God is Jesus' father. Therefore, it is highly likely that they will teach their children the same thing. I think the reason that this worries you, is because you're an atheist. Therefore, you believe that children who are taught religion, are being taught a false doctrine. If your children ask you whether or not God exists and you say no, a theist would view that as lying to your children, or that you're unaware of God's existence. Whether or not that constitutes abuse is open to debate I think.

Well they must learn to respect their children and not impose their beliefs on them. Give them the space to explore and come to their own conclusions, not theirs. In communist Russia they imposed their arogant beliefs on young minds. Was that correct. The Nazis youth had equally convinced parents can you excuse them as well?

[Fanman]

Xris,

I don't see any harm in a parent teaching their child their beliefs, so long as the parents beliefs are not extremist. One hopes that teaching their children about God will instil good moral values. I don't know why you're bringing Communism and Nazism into the discussion what do they have to do with what we are discussing?