Philosophy Discussion Forums

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 16th, 2024, 7:29 am Of course people feel an innate sense of gender.

I simply know I'm male, and that's not a feeling.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 7:42 pmI think what should be done is to accept and support the gender dysphoric person in the gender they feel themselves to be. At this time, if the person is a child, then, IMO, that support should generally not include any irreversible medical treatments.

It shouldn't include any unquestioning "gender affirmation" either!

"Darling, our 8-year-old son just told me he's a girl, so we'll go shopping this afternoon to buy new clothes for her."

I "know" I am male and I "feel" that I am male. Gender dysphorics may know they have a male body but feel that they are, or should be, female, or vice versa. I've read many accounts and watched heart-wrenching documentaries about children with GD, some of whom committed suicide because of it. An 8 year old child doesn't usually just comes home one day and announce the s/he is a boy or a girl. That description of the disorder is to trivialize it. It will have often been a long standing issue that became apparent as the child grew developed and which parents have had to deal with over years. I have great sympathy for the children and the parents.

Consul wrote: ↑April 19th, 2024, 8:23 pm It shouldn't include any unquestioning "gender affirmation" either!

Agreed, provided it also doesn't include the automatic (unthinking; unconsidered) denial/rejection of "gender affirmation"!

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 19th, 2024, 11:48 pm I "know" I am male and I "feel" that I am male. Gender dysphorics may know they have a male body but feel that they are, or should be, female, or vice versa. I've read many accounts and watched heart-wrenching documentaries about children with GD, some of whom committed suicide because of it. An 8 year old child doesn't usually just comes home one day and announce the s/he is a boy or a girl. That description of the disorder is to trivialize it. It will have often been a long standing issue that became apparent as the child grew developed and which parents have had to deal with over years. I have great sympathy for the children and the parents.

Yes I seem to have been watching such documentaries for around 40 years already, and there has been som progress in recognition of trans issues. So I find myself puzzled why some people want to denigrate trnas folk and try to set the clock back.
Can it be ignorance; resistance to simple truth, or is there some deeper and unpleasant erge lurking behind their self deception? As if driven by a visceral hatred of difference?
It was only a generation ago that homosexuality was frowned upon, and not long before that that it was illegal. ANd what a shocking waste of talnet, and social cohesion does that represent. Obviously we know about ALan Turning - but how many other examples are their? Even for homosexuality there is a resitance to tell the truth. In a recent film of his life nothing of the kind was mentioned; his imprisonment and "chemical castration" , and suicide. Not an isolated incident. The film "A Beautiful Mind" about John Nash played by Russell Crowe did not mention that Nash was gay, and that this might have contributed to his psychosis.
Now we have thousands of people whose body does not match their gender and they are suffering from a range of social pressures. The Nay-Sayers would love to point to their mental state and atribute that to their gender dysphoria, but this is like the dog blaming the man for spilling blood on the carpet from the dog's bite. It is more the reaction to the dysphoria by society that is causing the problem since society is still letting them down and not acceting them.

Sculptor1 wrote:Yes I seem to have been watching such documentaries for around 40 years already, and there has been som progress in recognition of trans issues. So I find myself puzzled why some people want to denigrate trnas folk and try to set the clock back.
Can it be ignorance; resistance to simple truth, or is there some deeper and unpleasant erge lurking behind their self deception? As if driven by a visceral hatred of difference?
It was only a generation ago that homosexuality was frowned upon, and not long before that that it was illegal. ANd what a shocking waste of talnet, and social cohesion does that represent. Obviously we know about ALan Turning - but how many other examples are their? Even for homosexuality there is a resitance to tell the truth. In a recent film of his life nothing of the kind was mentioned; his imprisonment and "chemical castration" , and suicide. Not an isolated incident. The film "A Beautiful Mind" about John Nash played by Russell Crowe did not mention that Nash was gay, and that this might have contributed to his psychosis.

I'm not really sure to whom you are referring to with your comments, nor do I understand your analogy with homosexuality.

In Alan Turing's time, homosexuality was illegal and he was forced to be chemically castrated. But transsexuality is not illegal today and no one is forcing them to do anything. There is a question as to how best to treat young people with gender dysphoria and around the recent surge in the numbers of young people seeking treatment. So it makes sense that we should try to understand it and there is no clear consensus of medical opinion on the matter.

For one thing, many of the young people appearing to have gender dysphoria have high comorbidities with other conditions. i.e. Why are so many young people presenting with gender dysphoria gay, autistic, or have other mental health issues? There is genuine concern that some medical services have been too ready to just accept at face value their apparent gender dysphoria and rush them into treatment that might not have been necessary (but will permanently damage their bodies).

Despite all the documentaries you say you have watched, there is a lack of real reliable evidence on how best to treat such people. We can fail our young people by misdiagnosing and then mistreating them.

Now we have thousands of people whose body does not match their gender and they are suffering from a range of social pressures. The Nay-Sayers would love to point to their mental state and atribute that to their gender dysphoria, but this is like the dog blaming the man for spilling blood on the carpet from the dog's bite. It is more the reaction to the dysphoria by society that is causing the problem since society is still letting them down and not acceting them.

Quoting the Cass review: "Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity." Therefore we cannot assume that every child that turns up at a gender clinic with gender related distress must have a body that does not match their gender. That is not "denigrating" to trans people. And it would be failing those young people who are mis-diagnosed as being in the "wrong" body if we did assume that.

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 11:23 am

Sculptor1 wrote:Yes I seem to have been watching such documentaries for around 40 years already, and there has been som progress in recognition of trans issues. So I find myself puzzled why some people want to denigrate trnas folk and try to set the clock back.
Can it be ignorance; resistance to simple truth, or is there some deeper and unpleasant erge lurking behind their self deception? As if driven by a visceral hatred of difference?
It was only a generation ago that homosexuality was frowned upon, and not long before that that it was illegal. ANd what a shocking waste of talnet, and social cohesion does that represent. Obviously we know about ALan Turning - but how many other examples are their? Even for homosexuality there is a resitance to tell the truth. In a recent film of his life nothing of the kind was mentioned; his imprisonment and "chemical castration" , and suicide. Not an isolated incident. The film "A Beautiful Mind" about John Nash played by Russell Crowe did not mention that Nash was gay, and that this might have contributed to his psychosis.

I'm not really sure to whom you are referring to with your comments, nor do I understand your analogy with homosexuality.

If the shoe fits...
I did not invite your response.

In Alan Turing's time, homosexuality was illegal and he was forced to be chemically castrated. But transsexuality is not illegal today and no one is forcing them to do anything.

No not yet, though it is now illegal in some states to talk about it.
If you do not understand the analogy then you are part of the problem.

There is a question as to how best to treat young people with gender dysphoria and around the recent surge in the numbers of young people seeking treatment. So it makes sense that we should try to understand it and there is no clear consensus of medical opinion on the matter.

Do not kid yourslef you give a damn.

For one thing, many of the young people appearing to have gender dysphoria have high comorbidities with other conditions.

Please cite.

i.e. Why are so many young people presenting with gender dysphoria gay, autistic, or have other mental health issues?

Oh dear why are you bringing up gay and autistic people when you are so puzzled that I brought up homosexuals?

There is genuine concern that some medical services have been too ready to just accept at face value their apparent gender dysphoria and rush them into treatment that might not have been necessary (but will permanently damage their bodies).

This is just Fox News hysteria.

Despite all the documentaries you say you have watched, there is a lack of real reliable evidence on how best to treat such people. We can fail our young people by misdiagnosing and then mistreating them.

Now we have thousands of people whose body does not match their gender and they are suffering from a range of social pressures. The Nay-Sayers would love to point to their mental state and atribute that to their gender dysphoria, but this is like the dog blaming the man for spilling blood on the carpet from the dog's bite. It is more the reaction to the dysphoria by society that is causing the problem since society is still letting them down and not acceting them.

Quoting the Cass review: "Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity." Therefore we cannot assume that every child that turns up at a gender clinic with gender related distress must have a body that does not match their gender. That is not "denigrating" to trans people. And it would be failing those young people who are mis-diagnosed as being in the "wrong" body if we did assume that.

Thanks for cherry picking one paragraph. But you do not get to imply your following "therefore... " as if it were characteristic of the report as a whole; it is not. Non one is "assuming" what you want to suggest they are. In fact none of the 33 recomendations would share your skepticism.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 19th, 2024, 11:48 pmAn 8 year old child doesn't usually just comes home one day and announce the s/he is a boy or a girl. That description of the disorder is to trivialize it.

"Darling, our 8-year-old son just told me he's a girl, so we'll go shopping this afternoon to buy new clothes for her." – That isn't meant to be a description of gender dysphoria but a funny example of unquestioning gender affirmation by parents.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 8:39 am

Consul wrote: ↑April 19th, 2024, 8:23 pm It shouldn't include any unquestioning "gender affirmation" either!

Agreed, provided it also doesn't include the automatic (unthinking; unconsidered) denial/rejection of "gender affirmation"!

It depends on what exactly "gender affirmation" means. If it means telling a gender-dysphoric person that s/he really is or can really become a member of the other sex, then I reject it in principle.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 6:14 amThe findings of the Cass Report have been called into question.

As for the Cass Report's scientific methodology, listen to this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hry4wj

"The Cass Review is an independent report on the state of gender identity services for under-18s in England’s NHS.
It found children had been let down by a lack of research and "remarkably weak" evidence on medical interventions in gender care.
But before it was even released, claims were circulating online that it ignored 98% of the evidence in reaching its conclusion.
Is that claim true?
We speak to Dr Hilary Cass, the author of the review, Professor Catherine Hewitt of York University, who analysed the scientific research, and Kamran Abbasi, editor in chief of the British Medical Journal."

"Hilary Cass: I can’t travel on public transport after gender report
Author of landmark review into transgender treatment tells of online abuse and her dismay at disinformation spread by, among others, a Labour MP…"

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3121 ... 71630df3e2

"If you deliberately try to undermine a report that has looked at the evidence of children’s healthcare, then that’s unforgivable. You are putting children at risk by doing that." – Hilary Cass

I believe there are problems with the report. I shall go back to my sources and try to find a way to link to them here. However, I largely agree with the report. I have already said that, based on my reading of the report, and on common sense, I would not advocate treating children with irreversible treatments. That would not mean, however, that I would attempt to bash the gender dysphoria out of my child, or that I would try to just ignore it and pretend it wasn't happening. My child would need, and would get, support, and in that I would be guided by experts in the field.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 2:34 pm

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 11:23 amQuoting the Cass review: "Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity." Therefore we cannot assume that every child that turns up at a gender clinic with gender related distress must have a body that does not match their gender. That is not "denigrating" to trans people. And it would be failing those young people who are mis-diagnosed as being in the "wrong" body if we did assume that.

Thanks for cherry picking one paragraph. But you do not get to imply your following "therefore... " as if it were characteristic of the report as a whole; it is not. Non one is "assuming" what you want to suggest they are. In fact none of the 33 recomendations would share your skepticism.

This is a quote from the Cass Report's summary (p. 22):

"There remains diversity of opinion as to how best to treat these children and young people. The evidence is weak and clinicians have told us they are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity."

With that given, aren't noninvasive, i.e. psychotherapeutic, attempts at alleviating gender dysphoria (especially in nonadults) highly preferable?
Gender dysphoria is a mental condition, so how about first trying to achieve a "mind modification" instead of a body modification?

Note that by "mind modification" I don't mean a reprehensible kind of ideological brainwashing like "gay conversion therapy", but science-based psychotherapeutic treatment! Anyway, there's a false analogy, since body modifications are a nonissue with regard to mental problems in the context of homosexuality as such.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 2:34 pmDo not kid yourslef you give a damn.

Ok, so clearly you are accusing me of arguing in bad faith and consider it beneath you to argue your case.

I see no point in continuing our discussion any further.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 1:10 amHowever, I largely agree with the report. I have already said that, based on my reading of the report, and on common sense, I would not advocate treating children with irreversible treatments. That would not mean, however, that I would attempt to bash the gender dysphoria out of my child, or that I would try to just ignore it and pretend it wasn't happening.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. At least I'm not anyway. I think that I, and most parents generally, would tend to agree with what you say here.

My child would need, and would get, support, and in that I would be guided by experts in the field.

That's what we would all want. But given what has been found out about the Tavistock clinic and WPATH, I would worry that the experts I would be speaking to were not free of the influence of activists that have been trying to shape the way the medical profession deals with this condition.

However, things seem to be changing now and I would hope we're moving things back to being an evidenced based care model. Proper medical science not tainted by ideology.