Philosophy Discussion Forums

Belinda wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 7:31 am Sy Borg wrote:

"Now alpha males are business-minded intellectuals. Once alpha females were matriarchs or large clans. Now alpha females are business-minded intellectuals."

Might it be better to see that cultural development through the biological spectrum of levels of oestrogen and testosterone? I believe it's a bell curve.

I understand that testosterone has been decreasing in males since the 1970s, guessed to be due to more sedentary lifestyles and plastics. I don't know of any general shifts in oestrogen for females.

In the end, alphas of both genders are now successful businesspeople and celebrities. I heard that the new Snow White won't be saved by a handsome prince but will become the leader she knows she can be. I can imagine that children everywhere will feel the special magic of corporate culture and the achievement of executive positions. Who needs witches, ghosts and goblins when you can have insurance underwriters, phantom stock plans and acquisitions?

Sorry. Sunday morning. Veered off topic. Still, it's pretty obvious that people feel an innate sense of gender, so whattheheck.

Belinda wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 11:43 am A man's a man for all the superficial adornments of nationality, rank, or religious affiliation.

Setting rank aside, nationality (tribal loyalties as well as geographic) and religion are not superficial. They are felt much more deeply than that, by many/most who have such affiliations. And, deep as they are, this has far-reaching effects on the beliefs *and actions* of those who feel that way. And those who do are numerous, maybe even a majority (?).

But this has little to do with gender...

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 4:21 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 7:31 am Sy Borg wrote:

"Now alpha males are business-minded intellectuals. Once alpha females were matriarchs or large clans. Now alpha females are business-minded intellectuals."

Might it be better to see that cultural development through the biological spectrum of levels of oestrogen and testosterone? I believe it's a bell curve.

I understand that testosterone has been decreasing in males since the 1970s, guessed to be due to more sedentary lifestyles and plastics. I don't know of any general shifts in oestrogen for females.

In the end, alphas of both genders are now successful businesspeople and celebrities. I heard that the new Snow White won't be saved by a handsome prince but will become the leader she knows she can be. I can imagine that children everywhere will feel the special magic of corporate culture and the achievement of executive positions. Who needs witches, ghosts and goblins when you can have insurance underwriters, phantom stock plans and acquisitions?

Sorry. Sunday morning. Veered off topic. Still, it's pretty obvious that people feel an innate sense of gender, so whattheheck.

Reminds me of Mathew Bourne's all-male production of Swan Lake about 25 years back. It was first performed in London in 1995 and had a long run before touring the world to great success. I went to see it when it came to Australia, just for a laugh. I had seen this ballet preformed several times and I expected the whole thing would be laughable. At first I had a strong sense of incongruity at seeing the male dancers as swans. But, once the music started, that incongruity passed very quickly and I was enthralled by the dancing.

So while I think I have an innate sense of my own gender, of my maleness, and while I knew the ballet was written for an almost completely female cast, knowing that all the dancers in this production were male did not get in the way of my appreciation of the artistry. But, in 1950s Australia when I was a kid, I doubt that it would have been allowed into the country. Things have changed. I have changed.

I recently had some tradies come to do some work on my house. When they first arrived I got a bit of a surprise to see a couple of females among them. But that quickly passed. They were carpenters and they did great work. You would also would have been unlikely to have seen that in 1950s Australia. And then there's all the female police, ambulance and CEO's these days. And, during a stint in hospital last year, I was surprised to see how many male nurses there are these days. They are still very much a minority but one notices them. In a previous life, I trained as a male nurse and did that for a few years before moving onto other things. Back then there were only two of us male trainees in a class intake of about 60 girls. And on the wards we were used more as lifting machines than paramedics.

So whilst genders may not have changed, traditional gender roles certainly have.

DDN

"What really Happened on Octomer 7 @pularjs

Double Down News Apr 11

1 10 month baby died, and aother afte an unsuccessful cesarian
All other stories are false.

Most hostages killed by Apache helicopters (27) and (13)in house house by tank fire.

There is no clear evidence of rape

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 14th, 2024, 8:29 am

Belinda wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 11:43 am A man's a man for all the superficial adornments of nationality, rank, or religious affiliation.

Setting rank aside, nationality (tribal loyalties as well as geographic) and religion are not superficial. They are felt much more deeply than that, by many/most who have such affiliations. And, deep as they are, this has far-reaching effects on the beliefs *and actions* of those who feel that way. And those who do are numerous, maybe even a majority (?).

But this has little to do with gender...

It has a lot to do with popular notions about gender, and sexual orientation too .
Whatever the human being is he is not born as RC, Muslim, or Protestant :British, Chinese, or Israeli. These and many more labels are cultural and often the culture in question is at war with the human being.
The human being is not born as sexually deviant , male, female or as transitioning from one sex to another. All babies are born as basic human beings completely devoid of any and all designations . We aim to let babies thrive as babies, which includes babies feeling happy. We ought also to help every grown adult to thrive as an adult which includes feeling happy.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 4:21 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑April 13th, 2024, 7:31 am Sy Borg wrote:

"Now alpha males are business-minded intellectuals. Once alpha females were matriarchs or large clans. Now alpha females are business-minded intellectuals."

Might it be better to see that cultural development through the biological spectrum of levels of oestrogen and testosterone? I believe it's a bell curve.

I understand that testosterone has been decreasing in males since the 1970s, guessed to be due to more sedentary lifestyles and plastics. I don't know of any general shifts in oestrogen for females.

In the end, alphas of both genders are now successful businesspeople and celebrities. I heard that the new Snow White won't be saved by a handsome prince but will become the leader she knows she can be. I can imagine that children everywhere will feel the special magic of corporate culture and the achievement of executive positions. Who needs witches, ghosts and goblins when you can have insurance underwriters, phantom stock plans and acquisitions?

Sorry. Sunday morning. Veered off topic. Still, it's pretty obvious that people feel an innate sense of gender, so whattheheck.

I have come to the conclusion that despite that I don't know what it feels like to want to change my sex or my gender, some people want to do so, and that is sufficient reason they ought to do so and be helped to do so. And also, the nature/nurture debate is ,as you say, "Whattheheck" .

Of course people feel an innate sense of gender. Even people with gender dysphoria feel an innate sense of gender - they feel like the gender they think they should to be. We can split hairs all we like about whether to call it "sex" or "gender" or "gender identity". The only thing that really matters is that humans feel it.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 16th, 2024, 7:29 am Of course people feel an innate sense of gender. Even people with gender dysphoria feel an innate sense of gender - they feel like the gender they think they should to be. We can split hairs all we like about whether to call it "sex" or "gender" or "gender identity". The only thing that really matters is that humans feel it.

That this is a very real feeling (which nobody here disputes I think) is not the same as saying it is innate. There are many examples of things that people genuinely feel and yet it doesn't make sense to say that it is innate (or even that it should be affirmed).

Someone suffering from anorexia if experiencing a very real feeling that is causing them to suffer greatly. They feel themselves to be overweight and fat when they are quite the opposite. But most people would argue this feeling is not innate, rather it is some developed psychological condition, perhaps as a result of their life's experiences in our society.

Now, to be clear, I'm not trying to equate anorexia with genders dysphoria, only pointing out that what causes it does matter because it might affect how we go about treating it.

Going back to what the Cass reports said on the matter:

There is no simple explanation for the increase in the numbers of predominantly young people and young adults who have a trans or gender diverse identity, but there is broad agreement that it is a result of a complex interplay between biological, psychological and social factors. This balance of factors will be different in each individual.

This suggests that our sense of gender may come from some combination of biological, psychological and social factors (and vary from person to person).

Yes, it is unclear exactly how gender identity comes about. What we do know is that there will be variation in how strongly people identify with a particular gender. Some may have a strong sense of gender identity, others not so strong. And then there will be gender dysphorics who may also have a strong, or less strong, sense of gender identity, but who feel they are in a body of the wrong sex.

I cannot speak for others, but I know that, from my earliest memories, I always felt strongly that I was a boy and not a girl and I felt "right" being a boy. I knew what girls were. And I knew emphatically that I was not one of them. I suspect it is the same or the vast majority of boys and girls. So, does that indicate that I had an innate sense of my gender? I guess that will depend on what we mean by "innate". I don't know whether my gender identity was "inborn" but I don't remember ever having to learn that I was a boy. But I'm not sure whether that proves anything.

I know the question of whether or not a sense of gender identity is innate is the subject of the OP but, in line with what the Cass Report said, it seems that it is a question that cannot yet be answered. And I'm not sure that, given the current state of knowledge, it is the most important question we could ask in relation the gender identity. Perhaps the primary question is What gender do you feel yourself to be? It is the answer to that question which will surely determine how comfortable one feels in one's body. The question would then be, Can, or should, anything be done to help a person who is not comfortable in the body they have?

The findings of the Cass Report have been called into question. However, given the uncertainties, I would still, in most instances, be against any irreversible treatments for gender dysphoria in children. Maybe that will change as the causes of gender dysphoria, and what can be done to address it, become clearer.

edit: ...it is perhaps not the most important question we could ask...

Trouble is, Egg, I don't know of anyone who is born anorexic, but a number of people are gender dysphoric right from the start. The analogy doesn't work. Gender is a deep part of the human condition. Eating is too, of course, but I think an equivalent gender dysfunction to anorexia would be someone like Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs (sans the murderous tendencies), whose sense of gender identity was a confused mess.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 6:14 amI know the question of whether or not a sense of gender identity is innate is the subject of the OP but, in line with what the Cass Report said, it seems that it is a question that cannot yet be answered. And I'm not sure that, given the current state of knowledge, it is the most important question we could ask in relation the gender identity. Perhaps the primary question is What gender do you feel yourself to be? It is the answer to that question which will surely determine how comfortable one feels in one's body. The question would then be, Can, or should, anything be done to help a person who is not comfortable in the body they have?

...and what (should be done)?

The findings of the Cass Report have been called into question.

Yes, by ideologically driven activists. That was always going to happen.

To be honest, if there's one main take away from this report it is that a lot more studies need to be done on the subject. i.e. more science which, for anyone who genuinely cares about the issue, shouldn't be something to object to.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 6:14 amI know the question of whether or not a sense of gender identity is innate is the subject of the OP but, in line with what the Cass Report said, it seems that it is a question that cannot yet be answered. And I'm not sure that, given the current state of knowledge, it is the most important question we could ask in relation the gender identity. Perhaps the primary question is What gender do you feel yourself to be? It is the answer to that question which will surely determine how comfortable one feels in one's body. The question would then be, Can, or should, anything be done to help a person who is not comfortable in the body they have?

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 12:19 pm...and what (should be done)?

I think what should be done is to accept and support the gender dysphoric person in the gender they feel themselves to be. At this time, if the person is a child, then, IMO, that support should generally not include any irreversible medical treatments.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 6:14 amThe findings of the Cass Report have been called into question.

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 12:19 pmYes, by ideologically driven activists. That was always going to happen.

No. By experts in the field who question the interpretation of the science referred to in the report.

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 12:19 pmTo be honest, if there's one main take away from this report it is that a lot more studies need to be done on the subject. i.e. more science which, for anyone who genuinely cares about the issue, shouldn't be something to object to.

Agreed. We need a better scientific understanding of the cause(s) of gender dysphoria. And, most pressingly, we need a better understanding of the best way to treat it, especially in children.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 18th, 2024, 6:14 amI cannot speak for others, but I know that, from my earliest memories, I always felt strongly that I was a boy and not a girl and I felt "right" being a boy. I knew what girls were. And I knew emphatically that I was not one of them. I suspect it is the same or the vast majority of boys and girls. So, does that indicate that I had an innate sense of my gender? I guess that will depend on what we mean by "innate". I don't know whether my gender identity was "inborn" but I don't remember ever having to learn that I was a boy. But I'm not sure whether that proves anything.

That's interesting because, as I have said, I don't seem that have my own deeply held sense that I am a male (that you appear to have). How can those two subjective experiences be reconciled?

Perhaps one or the other of us is wrong.

You could be wrong because it's possible that it is simply something you learned subconsciously by the way you were treated and what you were told by others from the moment you were born. It is a notoriously difficult problem separating nature from nurture, of which this question is but an aspect of.

I could be wrong because I just take it for granted without even realising it. If it is something I've always had, how can I really be aware of what it is like unless I lost it (or it changed)?

Perhaps we are both right.

It is possible that it varies by individual. Perhaps some have a strong sense of gender and others less so (or even none)? Just as there are asexuals who do not feel attracted to either males or females, perhaps I am agender if I do not have an internal sense of gender?

And of course it could be something that changes throughout your life. Some people appear to develop gender dysphoria later in life (where they did not appear to have it before). Most of the conversation in this thread has treated it as if it is something that is fixed but do not some people claim to be gender fluid? If it does change (for some people), what causes it to change?

I'm increasingly inclined to think of gender identity as a drive or desire. Your gender identity is the gender you feel driven or desire to be. Defining it thusly does not really help to answer my original question but it might help me to understand it better if that was the case. At least it makes more sense to me than merely being some kind of innate self knowledge.

Children don't think like adults. They have no basis so they work out where they stand by looking at other children and working out who they relate to, and who seems strange and different to them.