Philosophy Discussion Forums

When you gave up the need to know it, doesn't make it right to substitute divine intervention for it.

Whats trying to override the belief system of reality I formed from knowledge and wisdom? The notion that there are other influences on a situation that are not a part of its realm of cause and effect? If so, in what type of situations. Where has those influences been recorded. (I been trying to get you to say the "miracles" that Jesus performs. Who am I to question those records, right? remember many people throughout history have performed those "miracles" that Jesus did {levitation, healing, foresight*...}. those powers didn't come from God it came from themselves, their energies that they themselves have been accumulating since the beginning of their soul's development, basically the power of the mind*)

What type of situations, would you think divine intervention is necessary or where would be witness?

Just because this notion overrides your belief system and that pride has a grip on you, does not give you a reasonable or logical stance to question the powers and limitations of cause and effect.

Bermudj wrote: How can people have religious experiences if there is no religion? If religion is all man made?

By attending at religious services to bond with other people, by expressing one's feelings through religious art, music, ancient buildings, reverence towards saints, by doing merciful or kindly acts. It does not matter whether or not religions are man made or God made, what matters is that the religious beliefs, whatever they are or are not , don't become more important than persons.


it is possible for ministers of religion to put people first and beliefs about how history all began etc. a long way in the background, if indeed such beliefs are to be considered necessary to community life at all.

Ethics do matter, but ethics don't attach to religious myths except inasmuch as ethics attach to other forms of story such as novels.


Incidentally the same should hold for politics and for finance.. Persons not systems .

It is child abuse to teach them that there is only one explanation of the beginning of the universe in time,and that this explanation is the same as it has always been through every time and place, and that it is known that God exists. Those are lies. It is wrong to teach lies to children if only because it wastes their time when they should be learning the good the true and the beautiful.

Here is an example of contrast between good and bad religion, remembering persons not systems:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... sia-church

Bermudj wrote: How can people have religious experiences if there is no religion? If religion is all man made?

Belinda wrote: .... By attending at religious services to bond with other people, by expressing one's feelings through religious art, music, .... Here is an example of contrast between good and bad religion, remembering persons not systems: ....

Thanks

Teacher4U,

Teacher4U wrote: What type of situations, would you think divine intervention is necessary or where would be witness?

I have already provided an example of where I think divine intervention occured - in my account of the incident where I nearly fell onto the train track, but was pulled back.

Teacher4U wrote:What type of situations, would you think divine intervention is necessary or where would be witness?

In my case it was when I was seriously ill under the influence of Bipolar-I, I was defecating on the streets because the illness was driving me to the ground, and then in desperation I went to see ex-colleagues at the University of Westminster just to say hello, an ex-colleague thought that I was on holiday and he suggested whether I wanted to do some tutorials to pay for the hotel bills, and when I began doing the work the illness changed course and I got back into life. That in my life experience is quite a unique event and very black and white event of divine intervention being necessary. Though when I think back on it, I can think of other situations of divine intervention taking place which may not be so black and white.

Certainly when it comes to witness in the black and white case I described there is no need for witnesses as it is all in writing. I had been to see my GP he clearly realised that I was seriously depressed and it is recorded in the medical records, the work contract that was offered to me to come out of the predicament is there. So it is all factual.

I have thanked the colleague who offered me work, after all I am well aware that he offered me work, nevertheless I am also always thankful to god.

I gave you a personal answer, I will give you a non-personal one.

Say a airplane crahes all 200 but one on board died. That one which survived has a good claim to there being divine intervention. What else saved him?

Bermudj wrote: In my case it was when I was seriously ill under the influence of Bipolar-I, I was defecating on the streets because the illness was driving me to the ground, and then in desperation I went to see ex-colleagues at the University of Westminster just to say hello, an ex-colleague thought that I was on holiday and he suggested whether I wanted to do some tutorials to pay for the hotel bills, and when I began doing the work the illness changed course and I got back into life. That in my life experience is quite a unique event and very black and white event of divine intervention being necessary. Though when I think back on it, I can think of other situations of divine intervention taking place which may not be so black and white.

Certainly when it comes to witness in the black and white case I described there is no need for witnesses as it is all in writing. I had been to see my GP he clearly realised that I was seriously depressed and it is recorded in the medical records, the work contract that was offered to me to come out of the predicament is there. So it is all factual.

I have thanked the colleague who offered me work, after all I am well aware that he offered me work, nevertheless I am also always thankful to god.

I gave you a personal answer, I will give you a non-personal one.

Say a airplane crahes all 200 but one on board died. That one which survived has a good claim to there being divine intervention. What else saved him?

So what happened to the divine intervention for the other 199? This idea that you and Fanman are some how chosen and millions have to continue to suffer and die is slightly naive. I have recently been hospitalised with severe stomach pains. Needing morphine on three occassions but suddenly my symptoms have mysteriously disappeared. Is it a miracle? If it was gods assistance why did he leave it for so long? What if the illness returns next week?

Mysterious was, buddy, mysterious ways.

Xris,

Xris wrote: So what happened to the divine intervention for the other 199? This idea that you and Fanman are some how chosen and millions have to continue to suffer and die is slightly naive. I have recently been hospitalised with severe stomach pains. Needing morphine on three occassions but suddenly my symptoms have mysteriously disappeared. Is it a miracle? If it was gods assistance why did he leave it for so long? What if the illness returns next week?

What idea that I was chosen? I never said that I was chosen, neither did Bermudj. Once again, you are creating strawmen... An event occured in my life that I choose to believe is divine intervention, that's all it is. Also, why are you asking questions that no one can answer? Who are you expecting to answer your questions?

Fanman wrote:Xris,



What idea that I was chosen? I never said that I was chosen, neither did Betmdj. Once again, you are creating strawmen... An event occured in my life that I choose to believe is divine intervention, that's all it is. Also, why are you asking questions that no one can answer? Who are you expecting to answer your questions?

I second this, just like Fanman, I never said I was chosen. It is simply that incidents like that make me reflect on their being divine intervention.

Maybe there was divine intervention for the other 199. It was time for them to move on.

-- Updated July 30th, 2012, 4:12 pm to add the following --

Xris wrote:So what happened to the divine intervention for the other 199? This idea that you and Fanman are some how chosen and millions have to continue to suffer and die is slightly naive. I have recently been hospitalised with severe stomach pains. Needing morphine on three occassions but suddenly my symptoms have mysteriously disappeared. Is it a miracle? If it was gods assistance why did he leave it for so long? What if the illness returns next week?

I do take this question seriously, BaruchSpinoza asked me something along these lines and he thought that my answer was not serious. The problem is that one would need to have an excellent understanding of how the divine intervention works to provide a convincing and satisfactory answer.

I tend to think based on my personal experience is that if one removes the stimulus the symptoms would dissapear. The symptoms could have been removed from simply moving to hospital from your house. If I take you to my Bipolar-I incident and extrapolate a little from there, the symptom was fear that I would not find work, once my colleague offered me work, that fear began to dissapear. The stimulus was removed. The reason that I feared I would not find work is that I have always been a very shy person who did very badly in job interviews. My previous job came to a natural end, my body worried, a true worry given my previous shyness, too much fear and the illness struck. So aware of this I have changed so I am no longer so shy, worked at inteview skills and the illness has not struck, and it will not strike again.

I am sorry to hear you need morphine, it must have been terribly painful. Identifying the stimulus is extremely important, which is sometimes very difficult and then remove it.

But going back to the divine intervention, that to me takes place, but in an extremely subtle manner.

I am having trouble understanding how you treat your salvation from disaster or despair with your god. Did he interfere and save you or not? Thanks for your concern pain is so important at the time. It possess you to the exclusion of any other feelings.

Going back to religous education. I have just read that tax payers, without their consent, will be giving 4 million dollars to religous schools in Louisiana.They are not receiving enough from the private sector or charities to maintain their religous indoctrination.

Xris wrote:
Going back to religous education. I have just read that tax payers, without their consent, will be giving 4 million dollars to religous schools in Louisiana.They are not receiving enough from the private sector or charities to maintain their religous indoctrination.

I agree that Louisiana should stop providing vouchers which are paid for by tax-payers money to fund religious schools. It is actually against the law but was passed anyway. The state needs to repeal this law.

interesting website: www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/parents/?p=505 Please read one of the posts about this letter an atheist mother wrote for her children by lemurtide July 30, 2012 1:33am below her writing, for a fair overview of the subject.

Xris wrote:I am having trouble understanding how you treat your salvation from disaster or despair with your god. Did he interfere and save you or not? Thanks for your concern pain is so important at the time. It possess you to the exclusion of any other feelings.

Let me work on it a bit longer. The black and white answer would be yes, but then you ask me lots of other questions that I would not be able to provide a satisfactory answer as I carry on trying to work out a pattern.

Xris wrote: Going back to religous education. I have just read that tax payers, without their consent, will be giving 4 million dollars to religous schools in Louisiana.They are not receiving enough from the private sector or charities to maintain their religous indoctrination.

Why is it without their consent? My understanding is that most institutions in the USA are democratically elected.

Misty wrote:
I agree that Louisiana should stop providing vouchers which are paid for by tax-payers money to fund religious schools. It is actually against the law but was passed anyway. The state needs to repeal this law.

interesting website: http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/parents/?p=505 Please read one of the posts about this letter an atheist mother wrote for her children by lemurtide July 30, 2012 1:33am below her writing, for a fair overview of the subject.

Thanks for that Misty but as you would expect I disagree with Lemurtide on almost everything he/she said. We observed for thousands of years when all those atrocities took place religion was along side them. Slavery in most ME faiths was quite acceptable. The crusades by Christians and the 80 million Hindus murdered came about through religous intolerance not secular values. The holocaust was committed by those who considered themselves roman catholics. The communists do not represent secular values they represent themselves as any other evil dictator does. As an atheist not believing in god, man by steady promotion gradually improved mans moral outlook. Jesus the man can be held responsible for spreading most of that moral message but I did not need to indoctrinate my children into believing he was the son of god to convince them.

If the main manifestation of religion would be Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven and Bruckner, then I'm a subscriber.

Jklint wrote:If the main manifestation of religion would be Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven and Bruckner, then I'm a subscriber.

Not sure what this implies but I have heard many a good song on the devils guitar.