Philosophy Discussion Forums

Xris wrote:I must admit to singing a few hymns at funerals. We all need a certain ceremony to say goodbye to an old friend. I have no problem with churches they are part of all our histories, its this damned dogmatic attention that I can not stand.

I love many hymns. That 'Abide With Me ' at the Olympic Games opening was very expressive of our need to look beyond the dangers and labours of life, and the choice of such a dignified, simple singer could not have been better.

I also love the hymn by Addison** which is entirely outdated science, but the feeling is respectful towards the natural world and the feeling can apply well to modern science.

Chrismas carols too.

** The Spacious Firmament on High'

I once went to a pauper's funeral which the dead pauper's two frieds requested to be non-religious so it was conducted by a Humanist. This Humanist was slightly taken aback when the two friends also put in a request to the organist for 'The Old Rugged Cross'. It was sad that the dead man had had a dog but was not permitted to take his dog into the flat that was offered to him, so he had chosen to live rough with his dog.

Belinda wrote:...It was sad that the dead man had had a dog but was not permitted to take his dog into the flat that was offered to him, so he had chosen to live rough with his dog.....

There is a lot in this.

Teacher4U,

Teacher4U wrote: fanman, to say God created specifically the human race is a Theistic notion, that notion comes from IGNORANCE of how evolution works.

If you think, that because I do not believe in the theory of evolution I am ignorant then so be it. However, I don't think that because someone doesn't believe in evolution they are ignorant; they just choose not to believe in it, and believe something different.

Teacher4U wrote: Let me Quote you, "The sin of mankind was the cause of Jesus' advent and sacrifice - that his death saved us from sin is the effect.", mankind didn't cause Jesus to sacrifice himself, it was the Romans. that's REAL cause and effect. let me guess you also believe the bible was wrote by God? well it was created my Empirer Constantine to reunite the Roman empire under one belief, Roman Catholic.

I have also heard that the bible was originally written in Greek by Jews, that the entire bible is a copy of other religions and that the story of Jesus, is actually the story of a Roman god. And now, from you, that the story of Jesus was created by a Roman Emperor in order to reunite the Roman Empire under one belief. But despite the different stories I have been told by atheists, I believe that the New Testament is an accurate description of Jesus' life. I also believe that the bible was written by men, who were told what to write and / or moved to write by God.

Teacher4U wrote:Do you see how Knowledge and wisdom improves (progress) you veiw of reality.

What knowledge and wisdom are you referring to? And how does such knowledge and wisdom improve (progress) my view of reality?

Teacher4U wrote:Your correct on how a person can not be a theistic and atheist and deist at the same time. But everyone can go through the stages of each, the evolution of perspectives gos like this, Theistic, Atheistic, and Deistic. Because people EVOLVE to. They Evolve to become a better person, through searching for knowledge and wisdom.

Do you believe that all human beings go through your theory of theist, to atheist, to deist evolution? And, how does this process make a person better, and an evolved person?

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Maldon007,

Maldon007 wrote: Wouldn't atheistic and theistic views (other than "there is a god" or "there is not a god") be a subjective term? As in, there are many people who believe in god, who also believe in the big bang, evolution and other sciency stuff. They just see it as god created, as opposed to randomness. I feel I wouldn't have to change many of my views on scientific facts, to become a believer in god... maybe not a southern baptist, but something akin to a christian.

I think that you're right. Theists and atheists can share secular views and perspectives.

Maldon007 wrote:Ie, I could belive god may overrule physical laws at his whim, yet let them be set in stone to the common observer.

I do believe that God can overrule the physical laws. I even believe that I have experienced such an event. This was when I almost fell on a train track when the train was approaching, after losing my balance on the edge of the platform (I was messing around). I was falling, when I felt someone pull me back to safety. When I turned around there was nobody in my vicinity. I believe that was an instance of divine intervention. An atheist would probably argue that I regained my balance and imagined feeling someone pulling me back, but as far as I am aware, neither of those two things occurred.

Fanman: where to start ha, Im proud that you are now aware of how ignorant you are of the facts of biological evolution.

Also if you want a history lesson, I can give it to you about the history of monotheistic religions in the middle east?

Lets start in the time of Jesus's death, At that time in the middle east Judaism had already had its roots. therefore most people assumed Jesus came from a Jewish background (most likely true). at the least 40 years after the Death of Jesus, is when mark, john Luke and mathew came and wrote what they heard about jesus. three of them had Jesus as a wise man, and only one of them had Jesus as Gods Son. Them about 400 years, Many different sects of Christians live everyone from Europe to middle east. the first Christian Emperor Constantine created the council of Nicaea, those people selected what they wanted in the bible (about 40% of what was created in the past 400 years was burnt), and everybody who went against what was now the official christian scripture was killed. Constantin mock the organization skills of the Roman Army to form the ranks of the Catholic church, aka Roman Catholic Church. Then from there is when we start to see the spread of the sects of Christianity that we see today.

That was a very broad description of all that happens.

After several hundred years, the Middle East grew its on problems and went there own way. After a while a new story about a guy named Muhammad came about. Muhammad interpreted what he thought the stories of Judaism and Christianity brought, (interpreted them in more detail) those interpretations are in a book that we now call the Koran. You do know, the number one person they talk about in the Koran in Jesus right? The same stories that are in Judaism is the same in Christianity and in Islam. its just they interpret them different because life gives them different challenges in those different eras.

And basically they all fight because they all think they have the correct interpretation of reality of the history.

So just by talking about the three big monotheistic religions in the middle east, Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Hopefully you start to see the evolution of the three monotheistic religions.

Now everything evolves, your wardrobe fanman has that been the same since you were a child? You are telling me you have not evolved intellectually or in maturity since your last birthday? Everything evolves including society and individuals. I was once a theistic (then when i didn't really have an interest in God just took the Short cuts and said yep God is in Charge), then turn atheist thorough understanding the beginnings the cause and effect and continue from there to becoming Deistic.

MALDON & Fanman:

your wrong to say Theistic and atheist can live in society in harmony. Its the other way around its Atheist and Deist who can live in harmony together in society, because how we perceive reality is mostly based all on cause and effect. Theistic substitute cause and effect for the possibility of Divine interaction.

About your story, im pretty sure with that one prove of evidence you are saying doesn't over ride all proof of cause and effect we have gathered throughout existence. You must have strong abdominal muscles ha, don't give the gods the credit when its something you did.

Teacher4U wrote: You must have strong abdominal muscles ha, don't give the gods the credit when its something you did.

He said you would say that.

...see, me and him, atheist & theist, getting along

Regarding the later five or so posts;

please consider that religion, and being a religious person, or having religious experiences, amount to a lot more than intellectual beliefs about how the universe began,how species evolved, or which ethical system is best.

Belinda wrote:..or having religious experiences, ...

How can people have religious experiences if there is no religion? If religion is all man made?

Belinda wrote:
I love many hymns. That 'Abide With Me ' at the Olympic Games opening was very expressive of our need to look beyond the dangers and labours of life, and the choice of such a dignified, simple singer could not have been better.

I also love the hymn by Addison** which is entirely outdated science, but the feeling is respectful towards the natural world and the feeling can apply well to modern science.

Chrismas carols too.

** The Spacious Firmament on High'

I once went to a pauper's funeral which the dead pauper's two frieds requested to be non-religious so it was conducted by a Humanist. This Humanist was slightly taken aback when the two friends also put in a request to the organist for 'The Old Rugged Cross'. It was sad that the dead man had had a dog but was not permitted to take his dog into the flat that was offered to him, so he had chosen to live rough with his dog.

Belinda, If only we could have religion without god it would be so much more inclusive.

Teacher4u,

Thanks for the history lesson, although it doesn't alter my opinion that Jesus is the son of God. I don't think that every human being goes through the "evolution" to deist. I think that the process you describe sounds more like the normal process of maturity and intellectual development that comes naturally as we get older. Also, you are throwing a limited blanket of characteristics over theists, atheists and deists. I believe that people are much more individual than you describe. Not all theists, atheists or deists believe in cause and effect. Yet, you seem to posit, that believing in cause and effect is a requisite of being an atheist or deist?

I think that deist and theist beliefs are similar, in that they are both based upon the notion of faith. Faith in beings that we cannot perceive with our senses, and experience a connection with via our intuition or, if you like, our spirituality. I think that the fundamental difference between a theist and a deist is that they believe in different gods. Therefore, they have a different system of beliefs, which is based upon the god or gods that they believe in.

I think that the interaction between myself and Maldon007, demonstrates that theists and atheists can live in harmony together. So long as we respect each others opinions, beliefs and positions.

you put it well fanman:

theist believes in gods interactions, atheism beliefs in faith in the physical world and deist believe (not in Gods) but in cause and effect throughout reality not just in the physical world.

Also, atheist and deist ALL believe in cause and effect! its only theist who think God can have divine interaction.

So what about us agnostics?

Teacher4U,

Teacher4U wrote: Also, atheist and deist ALL believe in cause and effect! its only theist who think God can have divine interaction.

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. There are theists who believe in cause and effect, I am one of them. And I have spoken to atheists (on this forum) who don't believe in cause and effect. However, you're right when you say I believe (as a theist) that God can exercise divine intervention.

Fanman- Since you believe that god can exercise divine intervention in the physical world, that is what makes you theistic. You cant pick and choose on what cause and effect influences and then go " hey, I don't understand that so it must be gods divine intervention".

Xris- Agnostics has many characteristics that you would find with atheism and deism. In the since of always searching for knowledge and wisdom and then reflecting and to change our reality due to that new information (theism tends to lean towards being concrete in their tradition beliefs 2000 years ago). Agnosticism is about keeping the question alive. So its not a perspective of reality like theism, atheism or deism is. But more of a philosophy to always keep searching and never become concrete on your beliefs. For me, I am a straight up Deist, the question of an afterlife to me has been answered several years ago by the conclusion of the knowledge and wisdom at that time. Now i am still searching for knowledge and wisdom, to improve my view of reality (that's something that will never end). And if there is knowledge and wisdom that I learn, that leads me to understand there is no afterlife (I would change, but like I said I already went through that stage of crossroads of what reality is).

For somebody to say they are religious or spiritual or when someones say they are trying to find God. That means to me, they are searching for knowledge and wisdom of reality that was formed. So basically we are all agnostics, only when we are aware of it ha.

Have your ever looked up people who are Deist, as in our founding fathers and most intellectual humans who shied away from the church. And from that act the church labeled all who opposed an Atheist, that's why we still have debates wither USA's founding fathers were either Christian or Atheist. Most were nether, because they were Deistic (base on the evidence they left behind).

Belinda, If only we could have religion without god it would be so much more inclusive.

Yes, it would. Xris. It is so for some people too. Some Unitarians are atheists in the usual sense of 'atheists'.

Teacher4U,

Teacher4U wrote: Fanman- Since you believe that god can exercise divine intervention in the physical world, that is what makes you theistic. You cant pick and choose on what cause and effect influences and then go " hey, I don't understand that so it must be gods divine intervention".

Why can't I do this, because it is not in-line with your belief system?