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Posted: May 13th, 2010, 10:08 pm
by Jester Gren
Well, a genius could apply his strengths any way he wants, but in a world full of geniuses most people wouldn't be led around by them.

If they were all "practical" geniuses, they would fix up the world around them and create healthy and productive environments. In stark contrast; social geniuses who could get along well with one another, artistic geniuses, who could make things look nice, or moral geniuses who would always know the difference between right and wrong.

(Is an intuitive genius not also possible?[clar. intuition could be considered the root of "knowledge"])

Geniuses could coordinate their efforts and rely on each other if they were always extremely focused. Even if everyone had a full range of skills, the impossibility to employ them all all of the time makes it reasonable to cooperate.


[That is, to assume that geniuses generally will not get bored of being productive in their fields and start to wreak havoc just for a change in lifestyle.]

Quantum powered creativity

Posted: May 17th, 2010, 7:46 am
by The Belief Doctor
Science Daily:
"This is remarkable in a biological or disordered system at physiological temperatures, and illustrates that non-equilibrium multipartite entanglement can exist for relatively long times, even in highly decoherent environments."

The research team also found that entanglement persisted across distances of about 30 angstroms (one angstrom is the diameter of a hydrogen atom), but this length-scale was viewed as a product of the relatively small size of the FMO complex, rather than a limitation of the effect itself.

"We expect that long-lived, non-equilibrium entanglement will also be present in larger light harvesting antenna complexes, such as LH1 and LH2, and that in such larger light harvesting complexes it may also be possible to create and support multiple excitations in order to access a richer variety of entangled states," says Sarovar.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 151356.htm

Posted: May 18th, 2010, 4:07 am
by Belinda
The Belief Doctor, I would like to be able to understand this. Is it possible to put it into layman's terms without basically changing the meaning? If so, would you please do so?Is it something to do with EPR? If so it looks to me as if I have been under a misapprehension about EPR.

Posted: May 18th, 2010, 11:15 pm
by The Belief Doctor
Belinda wrote:The Belief Doctor, I would like to be able to understand this. Is it possible to put it into layman's terms without basically changing the meaning? If so, would you please do so?Is it something to do with EPR? If so it looks to me as if I have been under a misapprehension about EPR.
Yes, it's the EPR paradox in glaring lights, all cylinders firing; hot, noisy, squishy, gooey biological systems using quantum entanglement (alternative energy paths, explored, travelled at-once in parallel) to super-efficiently synthesize light.

Now, to think that we don't likewise work the same parallel-processing non-physical (aka nonlocal) and pre-physical (temporal nonlocal) abilities in our brains is ... quite frankly "planet Pluto" stuff.

The science is well and truly in. Nnonlocal processes are a simple and necessary expedient of biological life.

Permission is hereby given to sceptics and naysayers to now engage those intuitive, nonlocal processes natural to biological systems.

Permission is also given to thereafter "see" a new interdependent world-dynamic, greatly benefiting themselves and the communities in which they live.

[more at ...
http://beliefinstitute.com/article/cong ... -paradoxes ]

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 1:28 am
by Marabod
The Belief Doctor wrote:
Belinda wrote:The Belief Doctor, I would like to be able to understand this. Is it possible to put it into layman's terms without basically changing the meaning? If so, would you please do so?Is it something to do with EPR? If so it looks to me as if I have been under a misapprehension about EPR.
Yes, it's the EPR paradox in glaring lights, all cylinders firing; hot, noisy, squishy, gooey biological systems using quantum entanglement (alternative energy paths, explored, travelled at-once in parallel) to super-efficiently synthesize light.

Now, to think that we don't likewise work the same parallel-processing non-physical (aka nonlocal) and pre-physical (temporal nonlocal) abilities in our brains is ... quite frankly "planet Pluto" stuff.

The science is well and truly in. Nnonlocal processes are a simple and necessary expedient of biological life.

Permission is hereby given to sceptics and naysayers to now engage those intuitive, nonlocal processes natural to biological systems.

Permission is also given to thereafter "see" a new interdependent world-dynamic, greatly benefiting themselves and the communities in which they live.

[more at ...
http://beliefinstitute.com/article/cong ... -paradoxes ]
Mine is of course an opinion of just a layman, who does not even know what EPR may mean. Most certainly this my dwelling in the darkness prevents me from noticing anything "non-logical" in the article quoted. The observed facts are only related to the mechanisms of the objects storing the heat, and do not appear as falling out of general logic of Thermodynamic Laws. Non-logical it would be if some object absorbs, say, 1000 Joules of heat - and then is found to release 2000 Joules before returning to the initial state. All the rest is quite logical, no matter how exactly this heat is stored. Biological object are made of large molecules, and they are unable to store heat in Brown's movement as it is done by the inorganic matter - so they have to exploit some other means of doing this without them being cooked... I guess it takes being a metaphysicist to experience any surprise when reading such things.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 3:34 am
by Belinda
I am not a professional, Marabod, I got my notions about EPR from articles such as this

http://quantumweird.wordpress.com/category/epr-pairs/

The Belief Doctor, I am only a little the wiser. I still don't know if you in Sydney are affected by the same entanglement as I in the English Midlands.
And if your neuron(s) is so entangled, how could you be conscious of it? And presumably your other body cells are likewise entangled with mine. This sounds ridiculous just as any direct extrapolation from the subatomic to the macro sounds ridiculous.

True, 'ridiculous' is not a sufficient criterion for disrespect, 'ridiculous' was what they said to Semelweiss.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 5:11 am
by The Belief Doctor
Belinda wrote:I am not a professional, Marabod, I got my notions about EPR from articles such as this

http://quantumweird.wordpress.com/category/epr-pairs/

The Belief Doctor, I am only a little the wiser. I still don't know if you in Sydney are affected by the same entanglement as I in the English Midlands.
And if your neuron(s) is so entangled, how could you be conscious of it? And presumably your other body cells are likewise entangled with mine. This sounds ridiculous just as any direct extrapolation from the subatomic to the macro sounds ridiculous.

True, 'ridiculous' is not a sufficient criterion for disrespect, 'ridiculous' was what they said to Semelweiss.
Since the big-bang, everything, and everyone is and remains entangled (to some extent, still sharing the same 'wave-function').

The extent to which we notice that entanglement is the thrust of this forum. The substrate, ground or fields of potential from which all evolves is obviously (can't not be) everywhere interconnected (see earlier post on Congruent Solutions to Zeno's Paradoxes)

What this forum is focused on (at least as far as Meleagar's original intent, as far as I can tell) is about our Western addiction to believing in independent states of separateness (particle-nature) - states that are theoretically now **independently** untenable in the face of quantum theory and evidence.

Old Newtonian, Darwinian world-views to be eclipsed by fuller understanding.

As far as conscious awareness is concerned, there are plenty of workshops that tease out our ability to sense nonlocally (across space and time). No big deal when you practice. Hence how some can remote-view, others sense their mother's exact moment of dying across vast distances (e.g. David Suzuki's mother during WWII - she in Canada, grandmother in Japan; and countless other similar stories).

The extraordinary feature of our times will be the extent to which we ignored and actively denied our innate nonlocal awareness, due to cultural beliefs.

In 100 years it will be typical to hear "how could they" ... "what on Earth were they thinking"... (particularly as we've had around 100 years of quantum theory revealing Emperor Newton has no clothes).

Belinda, all of which means, if I were so inclined I could "tune in" to you. Perhaps sensing that you're not actually female, merely using a pseudonym as such, or various other aspects to your being. All is available. There are however some courtesies involved that dissuades most from doing so (respecting privacy). But all is potentially available, and there is no barrier that can restrict that knowing.

Hence the assertions of all the major religions throughout all eras ... "By understanding the Self, all this universe is known", etc.

It's not what is potentially available that interests me, but the nature of the restrictions we self-impose on those abilities.

-----------------------------------------------

Perhaps better said by Prof. Amit Goswami.

"It's objective and it's scientific.

You can call it God if you want, but you don’t have to. Quantum consciousness will do. Nonlocality, tangled hierarchy, and discontinuity: these signatures of quantum consciousness have been independently verified by leading researchers worldwide. This experimental data and its conclusions inform us that it is the mistaken materialist view that is at the center of most of our worlds problems today. To address these problems, we now have a science of spirituality that is fully verifiable and objective.

-------------------------------------------

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 5:13 am
by Marabod
Since the big-bang, everything, and everyone is and remains entangled (to some extent, still sharing the same 'wave-function').
I just want to praise the approach, contained in this phrase. It definitely helps to those who still fail to feel entangled and stubbornly try to keep their wave-functions unshared. And does this teaching say how to avoid the collapse of this shared wave-function? Would the increase of entropic entanglement prevent the diffraction of the pseudopodical uncertainties? Or this is left up to a personal choice of the number of slits to be used within the potential box?

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 6:16 am
by Abacab
The belief doctor you read like another IDer, a belief being the operative word. None of this is backed up in the least bit by QM science..it is IDer`s pure conjecture.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 8:24 am
by Meleagar
Abacab wrote:The belief doctor you read like another IDer, a belief being the operative word. None of this is backed up in the least bit by QM science..it is IDer`s pure conjecture.
It's interesting that you feel comfortable claiming that QM physics doesn't back any of this up when three of the greatest QM physicists to ever live, including 2 Nobel Prize winners, directly and specifically contradict your claim and support what the Belief Doctor writes.

Denialism isn't debate.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 11:33 am
by The Belief Doctor
Marabod wrote:
Since the big-bang, everything, and everyone is and remains entangled (to some extent, still sharing the same 'wave-function').
I just want to praise the approach, contained in this phrase. It definitely helps to those who still fail to feel entangled and stubbornly try to keep their wave-functions unshared. And does this teaching say how to avoid the collapse of this shared wave-function? Would the increase of entropic entanglement prevent the diffraction of the pseudopodical uncertainties? Or this is left up to a personal choice of the number of slits to be used within the potential box?
Marabod,

In my work I affirm the validity of individuality (particle-nature), in conjunction with the underlying wave-nature. The individual within community model works in all circumstances. The TOA (Theory of One and All) affirms the validity of One and All, of conscious-ego within unconscious-collective; of finite within infinite; of masculine-particle and feminine-wave., etc.

Within the context of the initial wave-function of the universe (at the big-bang) the wave function has now many (countless) wave packets riding deeper wave-fields.

We have become habituated to only notice the particle-nature ("physical thingness") while ignoring the immense, limitless fields (waves) of potentials from which physicality is routinely and naturally cycled into reality.

Simple test: can you pre-think a thought? However you approach it, you will find that your awareness of thinking comes or originates beyond thought. IN other words, desire (expectation) builds the potentials with which to 'fire' the neurons with which you think.

Hence the mystics meditative practices to engage subtle, but powerful modes of perception, awareness and control. And the creative entrepreneurs and artists who "know" enough to get out of their own way, and allow intuitive sense (gut feelings) to originate and fuel the resulting (logical) insights, inventions, discoveries, products, works-of-art etc.

From my research and experience, all the "heavy-hitters" in art, science, philosophy, entrepreneurial and sporting achievement work that basic process of following their gut-feelings in a rhythmic cycle of focusing while letting go; of being in the zone - e.g. Einstein, Branson, Conrad Hilton, & Gretzky who "could consistently anticipate where the puck was going to be and execute the right move at the right time"

----------------------------

As for the other, what on earth is an IDer (never heard of that term, sorry).

Oh, ID as in Intelligent Design?

Dear good fellow, please avail yourself of my freely available material which clarifies why both science (evolution) and Intelligent Design are both wrong (and, in certain limited contexts) right.

more here http://www.beliefinstitute.com/article/ ... intelligen t-design -> via short url is http://is.gd/cgegS

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 12:30 pm
by Meleagar
The Belief Doctor wrote:
Dear good fellow, please avail yourself of my freely available material which clarifies why both science (evolution) and Intelligent Design are both wrong (and, in certain limited contexts) right.

more here http://www.beliefinstitute.com/article/ ... intelligen t-design -> via short url is http://is.gd/cgegS
I've read that material, and I fail to see where you even address any significant claim of ID, much less argue how it is "wrong". Significantly, your above statement where you seperate science as evolution from ID (as, apparently, non-science) betrays, it seems to me, a fundamental misapprehension or bias about ID theory.

In fact, in this 3-part examination of the Fourier Transform and its philosophical/spiritual implications, Rob, a pro-ID advocate that posts often on Uncommon Descent, directly accomodates your argument about the inability of any examination of parts of a system to explain the existence of anything in the system because the system itself must be supported by "the whole", which includes all potential time and space.

If you aren't aware enough of ID theory to even know what ID refers to when mentioned in a debate, do you really think you have enough understanding of the ID position to meaningfully label it "wrong"? It seems to me that the wording of your documents only seek a semantics-produced superiority over what you mischaracterize as "both sides" of some debate about evolution, gained without any the support of actually understanding what you are claiming to be "wrong" in relation to your perspective.

As far as I can tell, the perspective indicated by your explanations doesn't contradict ID theory one bit.

ID theory only claims that one can significantly recognize that the existence of some phenomena cannot be accounted for without reference to intention, and that intention cannot be "broken down" to non-intentional forces. I don't think that your referred-to information in any way contradicts that fundamental premise of ID, unless I'm missing something.

BTW, in the "General" forum there's a sticky post about how to properly post URLs.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 1:13 pm
by Marabod
The Belief Doctor wrote:
Marabod wrote: I just want to praise the approach, contained in this phrase. It definitely helps to those who still fail to feel entangled and stubbornly try to keep their wave-functions unshared. And does this teaching say how to avoid the collapse of this shared wave-function? Would the increase of entropic entanglement prevent the diffraction of the pseudopodical uncertainties? Or this is left up to a personal choice of the number of slits to be used within the potential box?
Marabod,

In my work I affirm the validity of individuality (particle-nature), in conjunction with the underlying wave-nature. The individual within community model works in all circumstances. The TOA (Theory of One and All) affirms the validity of One and All, of conscious-ego within unconscious-collective; of finite within infinite; of masculine-particle and feminine-wave., etc.

Within the context of the initial wave-function of the universe (at the big-bang) the wave function has now many (countless) wave packets riding deeper wave-fields.

We have become habituated to only notice the particle-nature ("physical thingness") while ignoring the immense, limitless fields (waves) of potentials from which physicality is routinely and naturally cycled into reality.

Simple test: can you pre-think a thought? However you approach it, you will find that your awareness of thinking comes or originates beyond thought. IN other words, desire (expectation) builds the potentials with which to 'fire' the neurons with which you think.

Hence the mystics meditative practices to engage subtle, but powerful modes of perception, awareness and control. And the creative entrepreneurs and artists who "know" enough to get out of their own way, and allow intuitive sense (gut feelings) to originate and fuel the resulting (logical) insights, inventions, discoveries, products, works-of-art etc.

From my research and experience, all the "heavy-hitters" in art, science, philosophy, entrepreneurial and sporting achievement work that basic process of following their gut-feelings in a rhythmic cycle of focusing while letting go; of being in the zone - e.g. Einstein, Branson, Conrad Hilton, & Gretzky who "could consistently anticipate where the puck was going to be and execute the right move at the right time"

----------------------------

As for the other, what on earth is an IDer (never heard of that term, sorry).

Oh, ID as in Intelligent Design?

Dear good fellow, please avail yourself of my freely available material which clarifies why both science (evolution) and Intelligent Design are both wrong (and, in certain limited contexts) right.

more here http://www.beliefinstitute.com/article/ ... intelligen t-design -> via short url is http://is.gd/cgegS
In practice what you are saying is just a senseless pile of completely undefined terms, pinched from the real scientific articles and used in some unclear absolutely non-scientific meaning. There is no logical (not even trying to say "Mathematical") link between any two neighbouring words in your statement.

I am not even going to try analysing all this wavefuctiousness which you are trying to describe, as there is nothing to analyse there. You are obviously fascinated with some words, which to your ear contain romance of the higher knowledge, but jiggling these words does not bring into their combinations any scientific sense. The impression is that when you work on your concept you really think "with neurons" - but to me the insinuation that I also think with neurons sounds insulting, as I myself do not think with them. To my knowledge they are not for thinking at all, but for the passing of the signals from receptors to CNS. They are not even located in the brain...

You would do a great service to your own theory if you clean it from the irrelevant terms, the usage of which in some specific for your theory non-traditional sense presents the entire concept as a product of the intestinal digesting system, not of a human brain. There is no such scientist in the world who would be able to follow your explanations and understand what you are talking about. Any attempts to present a religious propaganda as a scientific theory may only cause laughing, not anything else. Those who openly talk about Mary being a virgin at least give the things their proper names, while what you talk about remains completely blurry exactly because you do not use a single related to your theory word.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 6:47 pm
by The Belief Doctor
Marabod wrote:
In practice what you are saying is just a senseless pile of completely undefined terms, pinched from the real scientific articles and used in some unclear absolutely non-scientific meaning. There is no logical (not even trying to say "Mathematical") link between any two neighbouring words in your statement.

I am not even going to try analysing all this wavefuctiousness which you are trying to describe, as there is nothing to analyse there. You are obviously fascinated with some words, which to your ear contain romance of the higher knowledge, but jiggling these words does not bring into their combinations any scientific sense. The impression is that when you work on your concept you really think "with neurons" - but to me the insinuation that I also think with neurons sounds insulting, as I myself do not think with them. To my knowledge they are not for thinking at all, but for the passing of the signals from receptors to CNS. They are not even located in the brain...

You would do a great service to your own theory if you clean it from the irrelevant terms, the usage of which in some specific for your theory non-traditional sense presents the entire concept as a product of the intestinal digesting system, not of a human brain. There is no such scientist in the world who would be able to follow your explanations and understand what you are talking about. Any attempts to present a religious propaganda as a scientific theory may only cause laughing, not anything else. Those who openly talk about Mary being a virgin at least give the things their proper names, while what you talk about remains completely blurry exactly because you do not use a single related to your theory word.
Do you not see the irony in your reply. Of offering no specifics in terms of your criticisms that I lack specifics?

E.g. "senseless pile of completely undefined terms" -- which terms, and in what contexts.

2. "real scientific articles and used in some unclear absolutely non-scientific meaning" - what articles, and how are they "absolutely" unclear, and how are they "non-scientific"

speaking of which, what facts can you cite that are absolute facts that are not reliant upon vague non-scientific assumptions (axioms)?

Just one?

3. "There is no such scientist in the world" - what evidence can you cite that confirms your belief? Any at all? Just a little wee bit of evidence?

4. "as I myself do not think" ... okay, agreed. Since you haven't defined or scientifically explained what it is you do think with, we can all accept your assertion that you "do not think"

-------------------------------------------

Meleagar,

Interesting. a child playing with playdo may be said to have intelligently designed the result. So?

In all my experience of ID, behind the acknowledge of "intent" is the usually explicit, sometimes implicit message that the designer was "God".

I have not ever seen ID proponents suggesting self-organising systems with intent, in which case it would be more appropriately described as Intelligent Co-Design, since it is a sincere, unabashed cooperative result, that includes One and All.

NO, my criticism is sound. Intelligent Design and Evolution are, within the broader context of quantum theory, wrong, in that they are limited, erroneous views of the deeper individual, collective causal mechanisms of our universe, our world and our lives.

No exceptions. TO affirm otherwise is to require an objectified, external causal agent (e.g. God, higher self, soul) that is in some sense "separate" to you, your ego, your immediate sense of self.

Tell me, what is the nature of that disconnect? What's the exact nature of the divide between your ego and your higher self? What's it made of? How do you cross it?

If, for example, you (your ego) is not perfect, but your higher-God-self is, how does one transcend imperfection into perfection?

If you are 99% perfect, is that good enough? How about 99.99999 -> infinite decimal places? Is that perfect?

When does the ego become perfect, and how?

--------------------

But I digress. Meleagar, I have read the webpage your cited. There is nothing in it that I found at all discordant with my work.

I only wonder why co-creation is not acknowledged? And why the author doesn't believe in him or herself sufficiently to announce who they are, to affirm and celebrate their ego, and their individuality.

Fine words indeed. But I generally take more notice of those who walk their talk.

More directly, the lack of courtesy offered by the blogger undermines his (or her) message. I have greatly enjoyed reading the Seth material (by the late Jane Roberts) over the years. In that he affirms, "I am Seth and I speak my name joyfully" or words to that effect. I would usually quote verbatim, but I've loaned all my copies to good friends, so cannot reference the exact text.

I am Steaphen, and I speak my name openly and joyfully.

Correct url: Q.Is Darwinian Evolution correct, or "Intelligent Design"?

btw, can someone explain in detail exactly how the following fails:

Key Principle of Life, for Life No. 1:
The Interdependence of One and All*
Individuals & groups; parts & wholes; one and all have interdependent validity, reality and purpose. Howsoever any whole (community, company or God) is experienced or perceived, we are necessarily the combinate whole as us.
{Examples, first-person}
I am my family-as-me
I am my community-as-me,
I am this city-as-me
I am this organisation-as-me
I am this planet (Earth)-as-me
I am this universe-as-me
I am god-as-me

Thus, as we learn so too God. As we fail, so too God.

Posted: May 19th, 2010, 8:49 pm
by Abacab
meleagar wrote
It's interesting that you feel comfortable claiming that QM physics doesn't back any of this up when three of the greatest QM physicists to ever live, including 2 Nobel Prize winners, directly and specifically contradict your claim and support what the Belief Doctor writes.
Appeal to authority hurting you yet? I could equally appeal to the authority of many scientists and physicists that won nobel prizes ..so what? it`s not science, it is metaphysics.

Thebeliefdoctor wrote
am my community-as-me,
I am this city-as-me
I am this organisation-as-me
I am this planet (Earth)-as-me
I am this universe-as-me
I am god-as-me
I`m sorry but I can`t understand what that even means? it`s certainly not science, and thanks for proving my point.