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Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 27th, 2023, 5:52 pm
by Sculptor1
rainchild wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 3:04 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 10:22 am
Capitalism and Communism; Football supporters and Rugby supporters are all Atheistic systems of thought.
So what the hell are you talking about?
Dialectical Materialism is an atheistic belief-system: acceptance of this system in toto entails the denial of God's existence.
No . God is irrelevant.
Capitalism is not an atheistic belief system because the theory and practice of capitalism are largely indifferent to the religious beliefs of those who engage in these activities. The religious stances of Catholics, Sikhs, and atheists have nothing to do with their ability to contribute to the widget manufacturing industries.
Yes it is, it does not care about god except that religion is a commodity and business.
Similarly, Football and Rugby are not atheistic systems of thought because the religious stances of players who believe in Macumba, Islam, and Shinto have nothing to do with the rules and strategies of these games.
Garbage
It's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
Calling something "atheistic" is question begging nonsense.
What god, which god?
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 28th, 2023, 12:46 pm
by A Material Girl
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 5:52 pm
Garbage.
I agree with you.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 28th, 2023, 12:48 pm
by A Material Girl
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 5:52 pm
Garbage.
I agree with you.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 28th, 2023, 5:51 pm
by Sculptor1
A Material Girl wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 12:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 5:52 pm
Garbage.
I agree with you.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 28th, 2023, 8:56 pm
by Sy Borg
rainchild wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 3:04 pmIt's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
That is absolutely what atheism is. Atheism need have nothing to do with materialism. May cultures have believed in the spirits of their ancestors without necessarily having any thoughts of a transcendental deity.
Atheism is simple. Do you believe in the God of the Bible or Koran? No? You think it's old superstitions and literal interpretations of metaphors? Then you are an atheist.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 1:48 am
by rainchild
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 8:56 pm
rainchild wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 3:04 pmIt's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
That is absolutely what atheism is. Atheism need have nothing to do with materialism. May cultures have believed in the spirits of their ancestors without necessarily having any thoughts of a transcendental deity.
Atheism is simple. Do you believe in the God of the Bible or Koran? No? You think it's old superstitions and literal interpretations of metaphors? Then you are an atheist.
Your definition of atheism implies the denial of god's existence. If an ideology or practice does not entail such denial, it cannot reasonably be described as atheistic.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 2:01 am
by rainchild
Dialectical Materialism is an atheistic belief-system: acceptance of this system in toto entails the denial of God's existence.
No . God is irrelevant.
And yet all of the Communist countries are officially atheistic, and either regulate or suppress religion. The same can't be said of Capitalist societies.
Capitalism is not an atheistic belief system because the theory and practice of capitalism are largely indifferent to the religious beliefs of those who engage in these activities. The religious stances of Catholics, Sikhs, and atheists have nothing to do with their ability to contribute to the widget manufacturing industries.
Yes it is, it does not care about god except that religion is a commodity and business.
It entails no denial of god(s), so it is not atheistic.
Similarly, Football and Rugby are not atheistic systems of thought because the religious stances of players who believe in Macumba, Islam, and Shinto have nothing to do with the rules and strategies of these games.
Garbage
Because you say so in a terse way? I don't think so. No denial of god(s) existence = no atheism.
It's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
Calling something "atheistic" is question begging nonsense. Which god? ...
Atheism = the denial of the existence of any god whatsoever. Beliefs, ideologies, and practices that entail such denial can reasonably be called atheistic. Those that entail no such denial cannot be.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 2:29 am
by Lagayascienza
Capitalism, football, the fashion industry, one's fish tank... none of these are "atheistic systems". They are not in the business of denying or accepting theism or atheism. In terms of the philosophical debate about religion and spirituality, atheism is simply the disbelief in the existence of god(s). If we don't believe in gods then we are atheists. Football is a game played for fun/money which is based on a set of human invented rules; it is an abstract entity that can't believe in anything. It is not an atheistic system any more than ones fish tank is.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 3:06 am
by Sy Borg
rainchild wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 1:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 8:56 pm
rainchild wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 3:04 pmIt's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
That is absolutely what atheism is. Atheism need have nothing to do with materialism. May cultures have believed in the spirits of their ancestors without necessarily having any thoughts of a transcendental deity.
Atheism is simple. Do you believe in the God of the Bible or Koran? No? You think it's old superstitions and literal interpretations of metaphors? Then you are an atheist.
Your definition of atheism implies the denial of god's existence. If an ideology or practice does not entail such denial, it cannot reasonably be described as atheistic.
Whatever. It's just not believing in the usual deities. Maybe people think the idea is absurd and childish. Or, in some rare cases these days, a person might have never heard of the idea of a deity.
Technically, they would be apatheists, that is, they simply don't care.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 2:23 pm
by LuckyR
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 3:06 am
rainchild wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 1:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 8:56 pm
rainchild wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 3:04 pmIt's silly to define atheism as the mere absence of belief in God, since this definition applies equally to Bertrand Russell, my plush toy collection, the fish at Seattle's aquarium, and the rocks on any given road.
That is absolutely what atheism is. Atheism need have nothing to do with materialism. May cultures have believed in the spirits of their ancestors without necessarily having any thoughts of a transcendental deity.
Atheism is simple. Do you believe in the God of the Bible or Koran? No? You think it's old superstitions and literal interpretations of metaphors? Then you are an atheist.
Your definition of atheism implies the denial of god's existence. If an ideology or practice does not entail such denial, it cannot reasonably be described as atheistic.
Whatever. It's just not believing in the usual deities. Maybe people think the idea is absurd and childish. Or, in some rare cases these days, a person might have never heard of the idea of a deity.
Technically, they would be apatheists, that is, they simply don't care.
Don't underestimate the number of folks who automatically check the "I am a member of a church" whose membership while a mile wide is a millimeter deep. In other words they fear the label "atheist" but have essentially zero interest in morality or deities.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 29th, 2023, 2:43 pm
by Sy Borg
LuckyR wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 2:23 pm
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 3:06 am
rainchild wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 1:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 8:56 pm
That is absolutely what atheism is. Atheism need have nothing to do with materialism. May cultures have believed in the spirits of their ancestors without necessarily having any thoughts of a transcendental deity.
Atheism is simple. Do you believe in the God of the Bible or Koran? No? You think it's old superstitions and literal interpretations of metaphors? Then you are an atheist.
Your definition of atheism implies the denial of god's existence. If an ideology or practice does not entail such denial, it cannot reasonably be described as atheistic.
Whatever. It's just not believing in the usual deities. Maybe people think the idea is absurd and childish. Or, in some rare cases these days, a person might have never heard of the idea of a deity.
Technically, they would be apatheists, that is, they simply don't care.
Don't underestimate the number of folks who automatically check the "I am a member of a church" whose membership while a mile wide is a millimeter deep. In other words they fear the label "atheist" but have essentially zero interest in morality or deities.
True, I checked the C of E box in any given form for decades. I wasn't religious at all but, back then, entering your religion was like entering your nationality - just a characteristic of your birth that didn't mean all that much. It's basically a declaration of one's tribe.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: December 30th, 2023, 11:12 am
by Belindi
Doing religion sometime coincides with doing spirituality. But it's difficult for any religion to herd cats.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: January 18th, 2024, 1:31 am
by popeye1945
Spirituality and religion are not the same thing, in fact, I do not believe religion is spirituality at all, it is a specific system, to relieve the insecurity we all feel in this fleeting life. When one sees a majestic mountain range, a storm upon the ocean, or the wonders of the rainforest, and one lose oneself to it, this is spirituality. Participation in nature as what you are.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: January 18th, 2024, 5:16 am
by Belindi
popeye1945 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 1:31 am
Spirituality and religion are not the same thing, in fact, I do not believe religion is spirituality at all, it is a specific system, to relieve the insecurity we all feel in this fleeting life. When one sees a majestic mountain range, a storm upon the ocean, or the wonders of the rainforest, and one lose oneself to it, this is spirituality. Participation in nature as what you are.
I agree, especially with your taking the time to explain what you mean by that elusive term 'spirituality'. However I wonder if you would include the feeling of spirituality that many people get in the dusky towering space of Rheims cathedral. Or that mathematicians are said to get from the elegance of a perfect mathematical idea.
Re: Non-religious spirituality. Is it viable for true atheists?
Posted: January 18th, 2024, 5:33 am
by popeye1945
[quote=Belindi post_id=453768 time=1705569409 user_id=46660]
[quote=popeye1945 post_id=453742 time=1705555904 user_id=49850]
Spirituality and religion are not the same thing, in fact, I do not believe religion is spirituality at all, it is a specific system, to relieve the insecurity we all feel in this fleeting life. When one sees a majestic mountain range, a storm upon the ocean, or the wonders of the rainforest, and one lose oneself to it, this is spirituality. Participation in nature as what you are.
[/quote]
I agree, especially with your taking the time to explain what you mean by that elusive term 'spirituality'. However I wonder if you would include the feeling of spirituality that many people get in the dusky towering space of Rheims cathedral. Or that mathematicians are said to get from the elegance of a perfect mathematical idea.
[/quote]
Hi Belindi,
Oh yes of course, anything the moves the spirit, architecture has been said to be frozen poetry, with its own rhythms, and as biological extensions of the human animal it can be very moving. Like all human creations, it comes out of our very nature; just as much as the complex design of the spider and its extraordinary web. If one can lose oneself in it, that is participation in divinity/nature. A little Spinoza there!!