Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

Let me I pose a question:

Is human able to design and create an elephant?!

No, please ignore answering this question!

Is human able to create a horse?!

please ignore this question too.

Is human able to create a pigeon?!

please ignore this one, as well.

Is human able to create a mouse?!

I think this being is a very difficult and complex thing as well to be created by human with his low knowledge, technology facilities and ability! So let me I ask the last question that it is expected somebody answer it.

Is man able to create a mosquito?

No one is capable of creating these things.
Why are you asking?

[Mans]

I want to conclude from the answers, that God has proved himself.

[Sy Borg]

If God has proved herself, this proofs are about as clear as slhvkrhvf skfhehlGEYRWVGR 4;TWUPCU R,JFVN AS.IJ

A non-believer dies, her soul floating off to purgatory. The disembodied soul is greeted by another lost in limbo, who greets it in the usual mournful refrain of those denied entry to Heaven, 'So you couldn't find Wally either? I was sure he was in the bottom left corner, but it turned out to be someone else in a candy striped shirt'.

If God has proved herself, her proofs are about as transparent as a scientist making a discovery and putting the proofs in a locked filing cabinet at the bottom of a cellar in a half-destroyed building in a remote ghost town. Oh, so you couldn't find the proofs? Shame on you!

[evolution]

"Video footage". Do you believe and/or trust everything you see and watch on video?

What I believe has nothing to do with it.

Okay. Does having trust have anything to do with 'it'?

[evolution]

It comes down to the fact that there's no evidence of religious claims, but folks want you to believe religious claims--which was a remnant especially of religion having a lot of political power, and it's still a huge economic force, so they spun it as it being "important" to believe the claims despite the lack of evidence.

So, where is the evidence that there there is NO evidence for religious claims?

Is your claim above an eternal irrefutable supposed "fact", or, just a "fact" according to your own personal experiences and views?

[evolution]

I want to conclude from the answers, that God has proved himself.

How would that at all prove that God exists?

[Mans]

It is hard for somebodies to believe in a creator who created this world and human. Why?

Why some humans don't believe in the creator of the world, despite all his proofs and signs? What is the cause of this opposition and misunderstanding?

Why this type of persons try to imagine an absolute material world and delete the one who created it?

I myself answer this question, because they try to make a simple issue more complicated and focus on some unavailable things that are higher than their capability and thus take them wrong.


Have they met the skillful designers and engineers, who created this wonderful building and statues, though they have been ruined partially over time? (it is Persepolis in my country, Iran that was built about 2500 years ago)






Isn't its excellent art and techniques obvious?

Meeting or seeing not its ancient architects and builders is a reason that we can deny them?

if someone claims it hasn't had any designer and architect, what will be the answer of the wise people to the person who has expressed such the weird opinion?!

Meeting or seeing not the designer of an object is not a wisely reason that the technical thing hasn't a designer and maker and it is created by itself!


We go to the museum and watch the Mona Lisa portrait and praise its painter, Leonardo da Vinci. Have we met him yet? Why we admire him while we have not seen him yet?

Yes, we have not met Leonardo yet, but now we are watching his admirable art and proficiency in painting as a sign of him.


The Signs are showing the art, knowledge and ability of their signers.


So meeting not the signers is not a logical reason that we claim the signs haven't a designer and maker.


God has shown himself, his art, knowledge and ability in his creation that is the world and the objects and beings in the world but his quality is an exception. He is not similar to anything that human has experienced. He is higher than visual or transparent things ( in total, materials). His quality is higher than ability and capability of beings to be recognized by systems.

How can human recognize and discover the quality of the" world maker " who is greater than the first space that the farthest stars and galaxies are in?!

How can human recognize or discover the quality of the universe creator that his quality and essence is not similar to the material and substances that human has experienced?!

Yes, we can call him someone, but we are not able to imagine him or simulate him to anything, because his quality is not known by man or even archangels.

We can ask who is God (the reflection of his character and morality in the beings and his words) but questioning, what God is, is wrong because his quality is unrecognizable forever, due to the reasons that I explained.

[Mans]

I want to conclude from the answers, that God has proved himself.

How would that at all prove that God exists?

Please refer to the comment above

[Jing or Jang]

What I believe has nothing to do with it.

Okay. Does having trust have anything to do with 'it'?

I think you misread what I wrote in my original statement.

[evolution]

It is hard for somebodies to believe in a creator who created this world and human. Why?

I think it is hard for most people to believe in things that seem implausible to them.

So, the reason why it is hard for some people to believe in a creator who created "this world", is just because of how that creator is usually portrayed.

Present thee Creator in a way that is true, right, accurate, and correct, thus extremely plausible, then you will find more believers.

Why some humans don't believe in the creator of the world, despite all his proofs and signs?

But what is the 'thing' that the so called "proofs" and "signs" show and lead to exactly?

What is the cause of this opposition and misunderstanding?

The cause of opposition and misunderstandings is 'belief' itself.

Just like no one can show you the proof and signs that a creator does not exist, because you believe wholeheartedly that it does, so to no one can show the proof and signs that a creator does actually exist to those who believe wholeheartedly that a creator does not exist.

Have you not seen or noticed these proofs and signs before?

Why this type of persons try to imagine an absolute material world and delete the one who created it?

To speak in your terms, Why these type of persons, like you, who see a material world but cannot imagine that it was not created by him?

I myself answer this question, because they try to make a simple issue more complicated and focus on some unavailable things that are higher than their capability and thus take them wrong.


Have they met the skillful designers and engineers, who created this wonderful building and statues, though they have been ruined partially over time? (it is Persepolis in my country, Iran that was built about 2500 years ago)






Isn't its excellent art and techniques obvious?

Meeting or seeing not its ancient architects and builders is a reason that we can deny them?

if someone claims it hasn't had any designer and architect, what will be the answer of the wise people to the person who has expressed such the weird opinion?!

The same answer that would be given to you. If any person believes and says a creator created "this world", then they have to accept that the way EVERY person sees things and says things is the result of that creator. So, why do you question what you say the creator created?

If a person believes and says there is no creator, then, according to your logic, that is because the creator created them that way. And, who are you to, literally, question the creator's creations?

Meeting or seeing not the designer of an object is not a wisely reason that the technical thing hasn't a designer and maker and it is created by itself!

To assume what the creator itself is, without not seeing or meeting the creator, is also not a wise thing to do.

One has to first meet, before they can see, understand, and know thy Self. To assume prior is not wise.

We go to the museum and watch the Mona Lisa portrait and praise its painter, Leonardo da Vinci. Have we met him yet? Why we admire him while we have not seen him yet?

But who admires him?

Yes, we have not met Leonardo yet, but now we are watching his admirable art and proficiency in painting as a sign of him.

One would have to first find his works admirable and proficient here.

The Signs are showing the art, knowledge and ability of their signers.


So meeting not the signers is not a logical reason that we claim the signs haven't a designer and maker.

To assume that the because the Universe exists there was a separate designer and maker is also not that logical in and of itself.

God has shown himself, his art, knowledge and ability in his creation that is the world and the objects and beings in the world but his quality is an exception.

And what sign was it exactly that led you to assume and believe that God is a "he"?

He is not similar to anything that human has experienced. He is higher than visual or transparent things ( in total, materials). His quality is higher than ability and capability of beings to be recognized by systems.

So what was the purpose of creating ALL-OF-THIS?

If the quality of what is created is above what can be recognized, then what is the use of this level of quality?

How can human recognize and discover the quality of the" world maker " who is greater than the first space that the farthest stars and galaxies are in?!

Very easily and very simply. That is how.

Once a human being discovers and/or learns how to SEE thee actual Truth of things, then ALL becomes revealed.

How can human recognize or discover the quality of the universe creator that his quality and essence is not similar to the material and substances that human has experienced?!

But if you supposedly "know" the quality is different from what you have personally experienced, then HOW do you KNOW this?

Yes, we can call him someone, but we are not able to imagine him or simulate him to anything, because his quality is not known by man or even archangels.

But what the Creator actually IS and how It actually works is very easy to KNOW, and very simply indeed.

We can ask who is God (the reflection of his character and morality in the beings and his words) but questioning, what God is, is wrong because his quality is unrecognizable forever, due to the reasons that I explained.

But you have not given any reasons, other than the reason that that is what you believe, which is NOT based on any thing even logically plausible, let alone logically actual.

[Terrapin Station]

It comes down to the fact that there's no evidence of religious claims, but folks want you to believe religious claims--which was a remnant especially of religion having a lot of political power, and it's still a huge economic force, so they spun it as it being "important" to believe the claims despite the lack of evidence.

So, where is the evidence that there there is NO evidence for religious claims?

Everywhere you look.

[Mans]

Let me I bring a quote about relation between God and things that is very fine and needs a deep thinking to be understood.

"God is along with things, not to be that thing itself; and he is apart from things not to be separate from them"

How wonderful quote it is about the close relation between the creator and creatures that relates a dimension of mystery of God's existence !!

I thought a lot about this astonishing quote (that is not earthy) and tried to understand it by my intellect, experience, philosophy and feeling, though I couldn't reach its unclear depth! But let me I interpret it a little based on an example:

We see a beautiful,colorful, and fragrant flower! Is this flower itself God?
No, it isn't.

We see the sun that we can't stare at it directly without a black protector filter, because of its intense light. Is it God?
No, it isn't; although a group of unaware old people imagined it was a god!

So, are the flower and the sun two independent and autonomous things separate from God?

No, they aren't! Nothing is found in the world to have an independent existence or can operate a function by itself.
The flower is not able to create color and aroma in itself by itself and the sun is not able to emit light by itself as a particle in the universe.

So what is the relation of these two things with God?

God is beyond or behind these two objects that has made them and has specified a task for them to do according to other relative objects. God has shown a part of his beauty and light in shape of a flower or the sun to be visual for man (and other beings like honey bee that are fed with flowers). So the flower is not a total image of God and also the sun. If God takes back his support and operation from these two things they will be destroyed and disappeared. So God is along with everything, not to be those things and also is apart from them not to leave them autonomously.

In fact the flower and the sun are two exhibition of God's attributes in the material world that human and other beings line in, also every other beings each one is an exhibition of God in the material world.

But we should note, God with its endless greatness is not limited with this universe or the objects in it.

I addition to the main subject of the topic, I enlighten readers, God has two types of attribute. The attributes relative to his mercy ; and the attributes relative to his kingdom, greatness, power and destruction.

[evolution]

So, where is the evidence that there there is NO evidence for religious claims?

Everywhere you look.

LOL But everywhere I look there is evidence for the opposite. So, your answer is obviously completely absolutely WRONG.

You still appear to be under the illusion that the way you look at and see things is the correct and right way, and the way which all others should be following and doing as well, is this correct?

How else would you explain your obviously TOTALLY WRONG answer?

Are you even yet aware that others do not look at and see things the way you do? Saying, "Everywhere 'you' look", does not imply that you are yet aware of this fact.

[evolution]

Let me I bring a quote about relation between God and things that is very fine and needs a deep thinking to be understood.

"God is along with things, not to be that thing itself; and he is apart from things not to be separate from them"

NO deep thinking needed at all.

It is FULLY understood, almost immediately.

How wonderful quote it is about the close relation between the creator and creatures that relates a dimension of mystery of God's existence !!

But there is NO mystery of God's existence, well to me anyway.

Also, it does not matter how 'wonderful' a quote is if you are unable to explain it FULLY to others.

Obviously if you still find there are still mysteries of God's existence, then you are unable to yet explain God FULLY.

I thought a lot about this astonishing quote (that is not earthy) and tried to understand it by my intellect, experience, philosophy and feeling, though I couldn't reach its unclear depth! But let me I interpret it a little based on an example:

We see a beautiful,colorful, and fragrant flower! Is this flower itself God?
No, it isn't.

We see the sun that we can't stare at it directly without a black protector filter, because of its intense light. Is it God?
No, it isn't; although a group of unaware old people imagined it was a god!

So, are the flower and the sun two independent and autonomous things separate from God?

No, they aren't! Nothing is found in the world to have an independent existence or can operate a function by itself.
The flower is not able to create color and aroma in itself by itself and the sun is not able to emit light by itself as a particle in the universe.

If you want to say and state that the sun is not able to emit light by itself, as a particle of the Universe, then what else does the sun need to emit light?

So what is the relation of these two things with God?

God is beyond or behind these two objects that has made them and has specified a task for them to do according to other relative objects.

If you want to make this claim, then what evidence do you have what this God thing is that supposedly made this flower and this sun, and what is the specific task that God has for these two things to do, according to other relative objects.

If you want to make claims like God is beyond or behind things, then you would also have at least some evidence for this claim correct?

If yes, then what is that evidence.

But if no, then I suggest not making a claim until you have at least one piece of evidence for your claim BEFORE you make the claim.

God has shown a part of his beauty and light in shape of a flower or the sun to be visual for man (and other beings like honey bee that are fed with flowers).

WHY, in this day and age when this is being written, do you, and others, still refer to God as a "he"?

WHY are human beings so slow to change and adapt, to some things?

So the flower is not a total image of God and also the sun. If God takes back his support and operation from these two things they will be destroyed and disappeared. So God is along with everything, not to be those things and also is apart from them not to leave them autonomously.

To me, ALL things are just a part of God, and not apart from God. Simple AND easy.

In fact the flower and the sun are two exhibition of God's attributes in the material world that human and other beings line in, also every other beings each one is an exhibition of God in the material world.

When you define what the word God refers to exactly, then you will find some people will start listening to you much more intently. Until then it does not matter how many times you keep re-repeating the same things, some people will just not listen at all to what you are saying. This is because they assume or believe that they already know what the truth is, and what they assume or believe is the truth is NOT what you are saying at all. These people will NOT listen to you, just like you will NOT listen to them.

But we should note, God with its endless greatness is not limited with this universe or the objects in it.

WHY "should" we note this?

What do you propose could be or is beyond "this Universe", or the objects in it?

I addition to the main subject of the topic, I enlighten readers, God has two types of attribute. The attributes relative to his mercy ; and the attributes relative to his kingdom, greatness, power and destruction.

How these two attributes of God actually exist can be, and has already been, explained, and in very simple and very easy to understand terms.

[Mans]

Despite my clear explanations your critique and oppositions are many! LOL

Let me I bring a vivid example in another way:

We can't compare ourselves with God in creation, but we can claim we humans are some dependent creators that are able to create new things that didn't exist before.

So please note the below objects that I designed and created!











Have you met me before?

Are you seeing me now?

Surely, the answer is no.

So how can you understand my personality (just now)? How can you realize the level of my knowledge, ability and doctrine?

Surely you can't know me from my shape in a picture or even via a live video chat (if I remain silent, don't say anything or don't show my artworks).

Q- So, how you can recognize my character, abilities and intelligence?

A- Just through two signs; my words and my works!

This is what I explained about the way that we can know God; with this difference that God is the absolute creator and we are dependent creators ( to him).

So, for knowing a person it is not necessary we look at him curiously! In the other word, If we meet a person, who remains silent we can't recognize his character by watching him. Whatever we look at the silent person we can't understand who he is or how he is, until he begins speaking and reveal his character via his word or showing his works.

Recognizing God by thinking to his essence and quality is impossible, and the only way that we can understand his existence and character is his words and works. The nature is a part of his word that those are the signs of his knowledge and abilities.

Please look at this picture. This is a word of God!
A biological being that is able to run about 100 km per hour, with a vast chest and large lungs for a high breathing and a thin body and aerodynamic head for running with this wonderful high speed!

This is one of the countless intelligent designs of God that is enough we can recognize a part of his endless knowledge and ability. Don't forget it is a live being and is not comparable with the solid and non biological things that we design and create.







Of course in addition to this visual beings; God speaks, as well!

He has talked with mankind.

Surely the word of God should be so much higher than the words of man. In fact, his words should shows his greatness, endless knowledge, logic and arts! The words that nobody can create the words like them!