Philosophy Discussion Forums

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 10:19 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 29th, 2024, 8:20 amThe marchers are peace-lovers. They are not marching *against* anything, they are marching *for* something, something worthwhile: peace.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2024, 3:51 pm No, they are not marching for peace or they would have marched for Ukraine, Syria and Sudan.

They are marching against Israel, against Jews, full stop.

No, there was/is no need to protest our government's policies toward "Ukraine, Syria and Sudan", because those policies are broadly in line with the expectations and wishes of the electorate. Our governments' policies with regard to Israel are a different matter.

The marchers are not against Jews. They aren't against Moslems, Christians, Taoists, or Parsees either. This is not a religious issue; the conflict is territorial. The protestors are against violence and genocide, and *for* peace. Full stop.

Get serious. If they were fighting against violence they would have been mainly protesting about Sudan and Syria.

No, it's a cultural issue. It's not religious, it's simple anti-Semitisim - hatred of Jews as a cultural group. It's been rife in universities for decades, becoming steadily worse. Even when I was young I was confused by the extreme anti-Semitism of friends at university. It's much worse now. Jewish students have regularly been made feel unsafe on campus.

Do you admit that there are outrageous double standards between how Israel is treated and other nations who are at war? Do you admit that the UN engaged in outrageous double standards with it s inordinate focus on Israel?

If the students were protesting just because they are all anti-Semitic, why did they wait until after Oct 7? They were appalled by what they literally saw happening. Unlike other conflicts, the crimes against humanity were recorded and shown on social media.
Claiming all these students are anti-Semitic and just dormant until Oct 7, is absurd. These claims, even if true, do not lessen the horrors we are seeing.
The young people have another reason to stand up to the US government. They don't see a future as the wealthy 1% steal their future. No healthcare for them but their taxes pay for great healthcare for Israel. No affordable housing but hundreds of billions for bombs.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2024, 3:51 pm No, [the marchers/protestors] are not marching for peace or they would have marched for Ukraine, Syria and Sudan.

They are marching against Israel, against Jews, full stop.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 10:19 am No, there was/is no need to protest our government's policies toward "Ukraine, Syria and Sudan", because those policies are broadly in line with the expectations and wishes of the electorate. Our governments' policies with regard to Israel are a different matter.

The marchers are not against Jews. They aren't against Moslems, Christians, Taoists, or Parsees either. This is not a religious issue; the conflict is territorial. The protestors are against violence and genocide, and *for* peace. Full stop.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm Get serious. If they were fighting against violence they would have been mainly protesting about Sudan and Syria.

Why do you keep repeating the same things? Are your replies simply copied-and-pasted from the Zionist's Playbook? I already answered this accusation, above.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm No, it's a cultural issue. It's not religious, it's simple anti-Semitisim - hatred of Jews as a cultural group. It's been rife in universities for decades, becoming steadily worse. Even when I was young I was confused by the extreme anti-Semitism of friends at university. It's much worse now. Jewish students have regularly been made feel unsafe on campus.

Rather than offer my own comment on this, yet again, I offer instead the testimony of recently-deceased, former Israeli Cabinet Minister, Shulamit Aloni:

Shulamit Aloni wrote: Question: Often when there is dissent expressed in the United States against policies of the Israeli government, people here are called anti-Semitic. What is your response to that as an Israeli Jew?

Shulamit Aloni: Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country, people are criticizing Israel, then they are anti-Semitic. And the organization is strong, and has a lot of money, and the ties between Israel and the American Jewish establishment are very strong, and they are strong in this country, as you know. And they have power, which is okay. They are talented people, and they have power and money, and the media and other things, and their attitude is “Israel, my country right or wrong,” identification. And they are not ready to hear criticism. And it’s very easy to blame people who criticize certain acts of the Israeli government as anti-Semitic, and to bring up the Holocaust, and the suffering of the Jewish people, and that is to justify everything we do to the Palestinians.

N.B. This is taken from a 2002 interview, when things in Palestine were not as terrible as they are today. Minister Aloni is simply explaining, quite openly, the way in which Israel uses the Holocaust, and "anti-Semitism", to deflect away criticism of their actions. Israel uses the deaths of 6,000,000 innocent Jewish people to 'justify' genocide; despicable. It is only surprising that the Jewish citizens of Israel allow this depravity.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm Do you admit that there are outrageous double standards between how Israel is treated and other nations who are at war? Do you admit that the UN engaged in outrageous double standards with its inordinate focus on Israel?

Until very recently, this was definitely the case. The USA used its veto on the UN Security Council to block resolutions condemning or criticising Israel, resulting in clear and obvious double standards when Israel was compared with any other global aggressor. But since the Israeli response to Hamas' strike against the oppressive military invader-occupier of their land, things have changed. Ordinary people are no longer willing to stand by and let Israel's genocide continue. They have chosen instead to march, peacefully, to tell their own governments that their 100% pro-Israel stance is no longer acceptable to their electorates.

So you have no need to be worried; the double standards are nowhere near as strong as they were, and things are improving every day, with every peace march across the globe. The ordinary people of the world have lined up alongside the UN, to oppose this dreadful genocide. Only our national governments lag behind, and that will change when protestors and peace-lovers exercise their votes accordingly.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 8:18 am things are improving every day, with every peace march across the globe. The ordinary people of the world have lined up alongside the UN, to oppose this dreadful genocide. Only our national governments lag behind, and that will change when protestors and peace-lovers exercise their votes accordingly.

I wish I could be as optimistic. The 1% Class has control of the media, the electoral process and the militarized police. Both parties agree on far too many things, like genocide and war with Russia. They agree on killing Medicare by the ACO Reach program and the Advantage policies. The only difference between the parties is how quickly they want to tighten the noose. Those few Democrats that oppose genocide will be ousted by the big money. Bipartisanship is not democratic.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 8:18 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2024, 3:51 pm No, [the marchers/protestors] are not marching for peace or they would have marched for Ukraine, Syria and Sudan.

They are marching against Israel, against Jews, full stop.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 10:19 am No, there was/is no need to protest our government's policies toward "Ukraine, Syria and Sudan", because those policies are broadly in line with the expectations and wishes of the electorate. Our governments' policies with regard to Israel are a different matter.

The marchers are not against Jews. They aren't against Moslems, Christians, Taoists, or Parsees either. This is not a religious issue; the conflict is territorial. The protestors are against violence and genocide, and *for* peace. Full stop.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm Get serious. If they were fighting against violence they would have been mainly protesting about Sudan and Syria.

Why do you keep repeating the same things? Are your replies simply copied-and-pasted from the Zionist's Playbook? I already answered this accusation, above.

Because it's a salient point that you fail to address.

Even now you have shown great enthusiasm to resist my claims that Israel is being unfairly singled out, and you STILL make my point more powerful and salient by the day, as you refuse to even acknowledge the Sudanese catastrophe, while completely immersed in Palestine. Simply, every reply makes clear that you are indeed anti-Semitic, that you have simply followed the masses down the rabbit hole.

Your care factor about human suffering has been shown to be ZERO, like almost everyone else expert in producing crocodile tears because your interest is not human suffering but a particular people's suffering - who just coincidentally happen to be the ones fighting Jews. You seemingly care so much about their suffering but it's only that you sympathise with your political allies, and ignore everyone else, influenced by mainstream media that has been infected with the social Marxissm of universities, which you seem to entirely support. The whole Oppressor/Oppressed dynamic is nonsense. Groups fight, and someone has to win.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 8:18 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm No, it's a cultural issue. It's not religious, it's simple anti-Semitisim - hatred of Jews as a cultural group. It's been rife in universities for decades, becoming steadily worse. Even when I was young I was confused by the extreme anti-Semitism of friends at university. It's much worse now. Jewish students have regularly been made feel unsafe on campus.

Rather than offer my own comment on this, yet again, I offer instead the testimony of recently-deceased, former Israeli Cabinet Minister, Shulamit Aloni:

Shulamit Aloni wrote: Shulamit Aloni: Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country, people are criticizing Israel ...

One lying politician does not represent a nation but I am sure you will be happy to take her word as truth.

Meanwhile, American universities are being inundated with outsider Palestinian agitators, who are now radicalising students. If you think that will end well, you are not paying attention.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 8:18 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 30th, 2024, 4:19 pm Do you admit that there are outrageous double standards between how Israel is treated and other nations who are at war? Do you admit that the UN engaged in outrageous double standards with its inordinate focus on Israel?

Until very recently, this was definitely the case. The USA used its veto on the UN Security Council to block resolutions condemning or criticising Israel, resulting in clear and obvious double standards when Israel was compared with any other global aggressor. But since the Israeli response to Hamas' strike against the oppressive military invader-occupier of their land, things have changed. Ordinary people are no longer willing to stand by and let Israel's genocide continue. They have chosen instead to march, peacefully, to tell their own governments that their 100% pro-Israel stance is no longer acceptable to their electorates.

So you have no need to be worried; the double standards are nowhere near as strong as they were, and things are improving every day, with every peace march across the globe. The ordinary people of the world have lined up alongside the UN, to oppose this dreadful genocide. Only our national governments lag behind, and that will change when protestors and peace-lovers exercise their votes accordingly.

Again, you keep repeating the lie about genocide. If a population is increasing, how is that genocide?

Also, there was no Palestine before 1948. If Israel was not created, the land would have continued to have still been occupied by sparse tribes from Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

I note that you don't actually care about genocide - only when it is allegedly perpetrated by Jews. Now other "genocide" interests you even a bit - not in Sudan or Syria, not the Tibetans or Uyghurs (whose genocide is officially supported by Hamas). not anywhere. Just if Jews are doing it, or something that can be redefined as genocide, then that is something that must be addressed urgently. The rest of them, of course, don't matter.

Your standards are at least double, and can thus be safely dismissed as partisan rants.

Imagine if, every day, we didn't have reports of Palestine but Sudan:

Today—with the RSF threatening the city of Al Fasher—we are on the brink of a mass atrocity against non-Arab ethnic groups. Analysts say the RSF could unleash another wave of violence, like their assault on West Darfur last year, echoing the atrocities carried out two decades ago by the Janjaweed. Yet the international community has no plan to protect civilians should the RSF mount a full-scale assault. Given the dire circumstances, we welcome the appointment of the Special Representative. I strongly urge the Biden Administration to fully staff your office with the personnel you request as quickly as possible.

Ceasefire after ceasefire has been violated. The risk of further atrocities is high. Diplomatic efforts to end the conflict have failed. I think we need to make it clear to both parties—and their foreign backers—the cost of continued conflict is higher than the cost of coming to the negotiating table. A report from last year by a United Nations panel of experts found evidence that the UAE was giving arms to the RSF.

I am also deeply concerned by reports that Iran has re-entered the Sudan file, possibly providing drones to the Sudanese Armed Forces. We have seen what Iran’s support for terrorism looks like across the region. These drones can carry significant payloads and they use them for catastrophic consequences to civilian populations. Russia, Egypt, Chad, and Libya have also been implicated in the conflict. None of the external actors are being constructive—in some cases, quite the opposite.

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/de ... y-in-sudan

And look what we have here. Another Iran proxy to join Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and more. But no one is judging Iran, who helped lead Palestinians into this hell, only Jews. Alas, the anti-Semitic don't think any of this is important. Like the UN, they are too laser focused on Israel to bother with any other issue.

More, for context, to see if it raises the same level of urgency in forum members. I'm not optimistic. Sudan does not have the benefit of groupthink in the west, which appears to be a strong driver in this new wave of anti-Semitism (that pretends that it's only being objective).

Sudanese tea vendor Muhasin Mahdi managed to escape from the house she was held captive in by RSF members in Jabra district, south Khartoum, after being kidnapped from her workplace in the Al-Salama market.

During her captivity, she says she was raped repeatedly.

Muhasin tried to escape after learning from the guard supervising her that her kidnapper had been killed in a battle in the Al-Shajara neighbourhood in south Khartoum. However, fleeing wasn't easy, as groups of RSF members would come to the house daily.

In one of her failed attempts, the guard caught her and told her that even if his fellow kidnapper who had forced her to serve him had been killed, she would remain "subject to the desires" of other leaders.

Muhasin eventually escaped and reached the Wad Madani city in central Sudan. However, she found out that she had become pregnant as a result of the repeated rapes.

She explained to Al-Araby Al-Jadeed that she had been unable to flee Khartoum when the war erupted as her father had insisted on staying (she also didn't have the money or means to flee, she says). Then she was abducted, her captors also threatening to kill her father and force her little brother to serve them too, she said.

https://www.newarab.com/features/sudan- ... ing-levels

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 8:18 am things are improving every day, with every peace march across the globe. The ordinary people of the world have lined up alongside the UN, to oppose this dreadful genocide. Only our national governments lag behind, and that will change when protestors and peace-lovers exercise their votes accordingly.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 11:44 am I wish I could be as optimistic. The 1% Class has control of the media, the electoral process and the militarized police. Both parties agree on far too many things, like genocide and war with Russia. They agree on killing Medicare by the ACO Reach program and the Advantage policies. The only difference between the parties is how quickly they want to tighten the noose. Those few Democrats that oppose genocide will be ousted by the big money. Bipartisanship is not democratic.

Oh, I'm not "optimistic", just hopeful. And I would add that the apparent injustice of this particular conflict has caught the attention of many people, in many countries across the world, not just America. Global politics is showing greater unrest and polarisation than has recently (in the last, say, 20 years?) been the case. The other conflicts that St Borg mentions are probably just a few of the conflicts that are raging. If there are 100 such conflicts currently going on — and I have no idea how many there actually are — there are probably 110 different reasons for them. We *are* humans, after all, and this is what we do...

I remain hopeful, but, as I said, not really optimistic.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 5:04 pm Even now you have shown great enthusiasm to resist my claims that Israel is being unfairly singled out, and you STILL make my point more powerful and salient by the day, as you refuse to even acknowledge the Sudanese catastrophe, while completely immersed in Palestine. Simply, every reply makes clear that you are indeed anti-Semitic, that you have simply followed the masses down the rabbit hole.

This argument just doesn't work. My opinions, taken alone, have almost no significance or relevance to the whole world. This isn't about me, or you, or anyone else. It's about the conflict in Palestine. "It" being this topic. That there is no care or awareness of other conflicts is given the lie by the West's recent, and continuing, involvement in Putin's Ukraine invasion. People, and nations, do care about these many and various conflicts, and I am included in that number.

I don't see that Israel is being "singled out". And it is not the case that discussing one conflict somehow disparages, demeans, or ignores any of the others. There are just too many of these conflicts, across the world, to mention all of them whenever we mention one. Apart from anything else, that just wouldn't be practical. There are too many. And so, to insist as you do, that one conflict may not be mentioned without mentioning all the others, is revealed as a simple avoidance tactic. Just as Israel's misuse of the Holocaust is also an avoidance tactic:

Shulamit Aloni wrote: Question: Often when there is dissent expressed in the United States against policies of the Israeli government, people here are called anti-Semitic. What is your response to that as an Israeli Jew?

Shulamit Aloni: Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country, people are criticizing Israel, then they are anti-Semitic. And the organization is strong, and has a lot of money, and the ties between Israel and the American Jewish establishment are very strong, and they are strong in this country, as you know. And they have power, which is okay. They are talented people, and they have power and money, and the media and other things, and their attitude is “Israel, my country right or wrong,” identification. And they are not ready to hear criticism. And it’s very easy to blame people who criticize certain acts of the Israeli government as anti-Semitic, and to bring up the Holocaust, and the suffering of the Jewish people, and that is to justify everything we do to the Palestinians.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 5:04 pm One lying politician does not represent a nation but I am sure you will be happy to take her word as truth.

Instead of simply offering an unfounded opinion, I have quoted an Israeli politician, one who served as a Cabinet Minister. Her words only confirm what sceptics have been saying, or thinking, for some years. Their suspicions, and the words of Shulamit Aloni, are confirmed by empirical observation. Israel uses "anti-Semitic" to frame critics as pro-Holocaust monsters, Nazis, to avoid criticism of its actions, just as Aloni described. You have done exactly that in this and the other topic on the current Middle East conflict. You have accused me many times of "anti-Semitism", tarring me with Mengeler's brush, to undermine my opinions. It is horrible, offensive, and it does not stand up to impartial scrutiny.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 5:04 pm Also, there was no Palestine before 1948. If Israel was not created, the land would have continued to have still been occupied by sparse tribes from Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

I believe these "sparse tribes" are the tribes that have occupied the area since before the Jews were ejected from it, nearly 3000 years ago. They carried on living there after the Jews were driven out. The land where these tribes lived may not have been recognised as a 'country' until recently, but the people have lived there for 1000s of years. And these "sparse tribes", of course, share their genetic heritage with their neighbours in "Egypt, Syria and Jordan", because human breeding has rarely respected 'national' borders.

The ancient Jewish population of the area also shares this same genetic heritage. Hence the unexpected fact that "anti-Semitism" applies to Palestinians at least as much as it does to those ancient, indigenous Jews. They all count the ancient Semite tribe among their ancestors.

This is going in a bad direction. Biden and Congress are planning to beat up protestors that don't follow the government line. Fascism will be welcomed by both parties. They call is "bipartisanship".

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2024, 8:39 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 1st, 2024, 5:04 pm Even now you have shown great enthusiasm to resist my claims that Israel is being unfairly singled out, and you STILL make my point more powerful and salient by the day, as you refuse to even acknowledge the Sudanese catastrophe, while completely immersed in Palestine. Simply, every reply makes clear that you are indeed anti-Semitic, that you have simply followed the masses down the rabbit hole.

This argument just doesn't work. My opinions, taken alone, have almost no significance or relevance to the whole world. This isn't about me, or you, or anyone else. It's about the conflict in Palestine. "It" being this topic. That there is no care or awareness of other conflicts is given the lie by the West's recent, and continuing, involvement in Putin's Ukraine invasion. People, and nations, do care about these many and various conflicts, and I am included in that number.

Sorry, actions speak louder than words. You show TOTAL concern for Palestine, vastly more concern than you have shown for anything else in the many years I've known you online. This is the first time you have been white-hot about a topic. Given the many horrors in the world, you have simply exposed your blatant and obvious anti-Semitism.

It's really simple. Be even-handed. That's philosophy. Objectivity. You are partisan. It seems impossible for you and Mo to be even-handed when it comes to Jews. Simply, both of your attitudes stem directly from the extremist anti-Semitism of our academic institutions. I find the blatant bias offensively anti-philosophical.

Hamas made the Palestinians' bed with the 7 Oct attack and now they are lying in it most uncomfortably. That's life. The people deserved better leadership, but it didn't happen.

I have no idea why people think that, in war, Israel should only kill a proportionate number of people in retaliation, as though this was sport. No, this is simply a war between Iran and Israel. Palestinian and Israeli civilians are the victims. Iran gets away with it all scot-free. Hamas's decision (driven by Iran) to attack last year was foreseeably catastrophic for Palestine, but no responsibility is apportioned there.

Much of the objection here against Israel - with no problem regarding the RSF of Sudan - is based on the idea that "Israel should know better", the intimation being that Sudanese and Palestinians too primitive to be expected to behave properly. By denying them moral agency, you skew the discussion to anti-Semitism.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 29th, 2024, 8:20 am The marchers are peace-lovers. They are not marching *against* anything, they are marching *for* something, something worthwhile: peace.

Again, you appear to be making the argument that acting from good motive is evidence against actions being antisemitic.

Whilst refusing to recant your stated view that discrimination can be accidental, and should in such cases be apologised for and not repeated.

Can you not see that you are holding two incompatible views of discrimination and trotting out one or the other according to where your emotional sympathies lie ?

'Cos that's what it looks like from here....

The Ten Commandments are a pretty good basic standard of social and personal behaviour. Moreover the Old Testament contains the early history of how my Judeo-Christian moral code developed. These sincere claims confirm that I am semite.

The Israeli wars in Gaza and the West Bank are inconsistent with the Jewish faith, so the present Israeli state is antisemite.

The UK state and US state are antisemite for continuing to arm the antisemite Israeli state in its illegal wars.

Belinda, by your definition, the entire world is anti-Semitic. If you think this is a matter of the good guys vs the west, you are mistaken. There are no good guys, just different interests. If you support others' interests over your own, rest assured that the favour will not be returned. They will simply take advantage.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2024, 6:57 am Belinda, by your definition, the entire world is anti-Semitic. If you think this is a matter of the good guys vs the west, you are mistaken. There are no good guys, just different interests. If you support others' interests over your own, rest assured that the favour will not be returned. They will simply take advantage.

I agree that if Judaism is an ethical moral code(which I believe it is) then all the warring nations are not semite. Your prognosis and explanation are probably correct. However that's not a sufficient reason to be a fatalist or for me or anyone else to opt out of caring one way or the other.
For these reasons it matters to me that there is an identifiable individual who can prevent a child having his little legs blown off by an exploding bomb and yet by immediately acting fails to prevent it.
Moreover , at the level of political decisions numbers tell where evil is. At the political level relative evil can be identified by numbers of casualties, and amounts of destruction.

You write "There are no good guys, just different interests." That is true but there is also a proximal cause which is Netanyahu's intention to proceed with what he is doing, and other causes , "different interests" which are circumstantial causes.