Philosophy Discussion Forums

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 7:06 am Nature is cruel without intending to be cruel.

God had a problem when he created us. he had no foundation to build the Earth on. Instead, he made a globe, and spun it round like a top at a thousand mph, we travel around our sun at 35,000mph and we hurtle through the galaxy at 490,000 mph. We can stand on firm ground and think we are stood still.

Many cruel men do not intend to be cruel, as many cruel men are not sadistic .

People like Mr Putin are responsible for terrible cruelty.

You can't eliminate the the theists' problem of evil by changing the meanings of words.

We can do nothing greater than love God, love All our neighbours and to love and pray for our enemies, these are the greatest commandments. God has given us the freedom to ignore him, and to ignore his greatest commandments. The freedom to love, also gives us the freedom to do evil. We can't claim that God commanded us to fly planes into buildings. The only time swords were used in the presence of Jesus, he told them to put the sword away, those who live by the sword die by the sword.

God sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, he has left us to work it out for ourselves. At some point, we will all stand before God, then we shall understand his will.

EricPH wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 10:31 am

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 7:06 am Nature is cruel without intending to be cruel.

God had a problem when he created us. he had no foundation to build the Earth on. Instead, he made a globe, and spun it round like a top at a thousand mph, we travel around our sun at 35,000mph and we hurtle through the galaxy at 490,000 mph. We can stand on firm ground and think we are stood still.

Many cruel men do not intend to be cruel, as many cruel men are not sadistic .

People like Mr Putin are responsible for terrible cruelty.

You can't eliminate the the theists' problem of evil by changing the meanings of words.

We can do nothing greater than love God, love All our neighbours and to love and pray for our enemies, these are the greatest commandments. God has given us the freedom to ignore him, and to ignore his greatest commandments. The freedom to love, also gives us the freedom to do evil. We can't claim that God commanded us to fly planes into buildings. The only time swords were used in the presence of Jesus, he told them to put the sword away, those who live by the sword die by the sword.

God sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, he has left us to work it out for ourselves. At some point, we will all stand before God, then we shall understand his will.

I'd not say it as you say it, but I agree with you, allegorically, as far as moral evil is concerned.
Natural evil is little babies who are innocent of sin , and helpless animals, suffering horribly. If God is all powerful and also good He would not have made a world such as this. The Creator is either all powerful or all good, but cannot be both all powerful and all good as those are mutually exclusive in a Creator god.

The way out of the difficulty is not to believe God is all powerful.

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 10:36 am I'd not say it as you say it, but I agree with you, allegorically, as far as moral evil is concerned.

I do believe that God created us with the intention that we should be kind to each other, and that becomes our problem, not God's. A real dilemma.

Natural evil is little babies who are innocent of sin , and helpless animals, suffering horribly.

I think when innocent babies die, it brings out kindness in human nature. We have a concern for the baby and the family. But if we have faith and trust in God, we will be united after death, suffering and death is not final.

I think humans create a greater harm than nature. When we kill someone, then we get mixed up with anger and injustice. If you were to draw a line today, and list every injustice that has happened here on Earth, most of us would have suffered in some way. Most of us are probably responsible for being unjust in some way too, there are things I regret doing.

If God is all powerful and also good He would not have made a world such as this.

I believe God is all powerful, and he can do anything he chooses to do. I believe that God is the greatest good that it is possible to be. We are created as children in the image, nature and likeness of God. God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself! Can God love us more than he loves himself?

What is it to love, how much freedom do you give your children, how do you punish your children if they disobey? What about forgiveness and mercy? God has absolute power over us, he can do as he chooses, but would we want God to exercise that power over us here on Earth? When God looks down on Earth, I think God must be angry, sad, and disappointed there is so much injustice.

Just my thoughts.

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 7:06 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:13 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:19 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Yes. God made them so that they could mutate.

Thomas Aquinas, 13th century theologian

"Nature is nothing but the plan of some art, namely a divine one, put into things themselves, by which those things move toward a concrete end: as if the man who builds up a ship could give to the pieces of wood that they could move by themselves to produce the form of the ship." Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on Aristotle’s Physics, Book II, Chapter 8

So the difference between God and Nature is that God intended to make Nature so, whereas Nature is just what Nature does.

The problem with God's intention is that Nature is obviously too cruel to be the intention of a good deity.

Cruelty implies intention. How does nature intend to be cruel?

Nature is cruel without intending to be cruel.
Many cruel men do not intend to be cruel, as many cruel men are not sadistic .
You can't eliminate the the theists' problem of evil by changing the meanings of words.

But that's exactly what you have done, changed the meaning of words.

EricPH wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 11:30 am

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 10:36 am I'd not say it as you say it, but I agree with you, allegorically, as far as moral evil is concerned.

I do believe that God created us with the intention that we should be kind to each other, and that becomes our problem, not God's. A real dilemma.

Natural evil is little babies who are innocent of sin , and helpless animals, suffering horribly.

I think when innocent babies die, it brings out kindness in human nature. We have a concern for the baby and the family. But if we have faith and trust in God, we will be united after death, suffering and death is not final.

I think humans create a greater harm than nature. When we kill someone, then we get mixed up with anger and injustice. If you were to draw a line today, and list every injustice that has happened here on Earth, most of us would have suffered in some way. Most of us are probably responsible for being unjust in some way too, there are things I regret doing.

If God is all powerful and also good He would not have made a world such as this.

I believe God is all powerful, and he can do anything he chooses to do. I believe that God is the greatest good that it is possible to be. We are created as children in the image, nature and likeness of God. God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself! Can God love us more than he loves himself?

What is it to love, how much freedom do you give your children, how do you punish your children if they disobey? What about forgiveness and mercy? God has absolute power over us, he can do as he chooses, but would we want God to exercise that power over us here on Earth? When God looks down on Earth, I think God must be angry, sad, and disappointed there is so much injustice.

Just my thoughts.

You are good man who can't see that it is entirely evil to make excuses for a powerful deity Who allows the innocent to suffer as appallingly as they do when He could prevent the suffering. There is no excusing the deity you describe, and He is the work of the devil.

God could have created humans who would never suffer, never commit crimes, never be innocents punished for being innocent. But then he would have created a universe in which we are all automatons going through the motions and without free will to choose between good and evil. The atheist who rages against God has to wonder, sooner or later, whether his rage is not itself a choice of evil over good.

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 6:25 pm God could have created humans who would never suffer, never commit crimes, never be innocents punished for being innocent. But then he would have created a universe in which we are all automatons going through the motions and without free will to choose between good and evil. The atheist who rages against God has to wonder, sooner or later, whether his rage is not itself a choice of evil over good.

Nobody chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering. To invent a supreme deity Who chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering is to invent a deity Who is less good and less just than Herr Hitler.

Some Christians come here to the philosophy discussion and don't even see there is the problem of evil.

EricPH wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 10:31 am

Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 7:06 am Nature is cruel without intending to be cruel.

God had a problem when he created us. he had no foundation to build the Earth on. Instead, he made a globe, and spun it round like a top at a thousand mph, we travel around our sun at 35,000mph and we hurtle through the galaxy at 490,000 mph. We can stand on firm ground and think we are stood still.

Many cruel men do not intend to be cruel, as many cruel men are not sadistic .

People like Mr Putin are responsible for terrible cruelty.

You can't eliminate the the theists' problem of evil by changing the meanings of words.

We can do nothing greater than love God, love All our neighbours and to love and pray for our enemies, these are the greatest commandments. God has given us the freedom to ignore him, and to ignore his greatest commandments. The freedom to love, also gives us the freedom to do evil. We can't claim that God commanded us to fly planes into buildings. The only time swords were used in the presence of Jesus, he told them to put the sword away, those who live by the sword die by the sword.

God sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, he has left us to work it out for ourselves. At some point, we will all stand before God, then we shall understand his will.

Matthew 10.34

Mathew 34

Scriptures are troubling, we can search for the worst possible intentions, or the greatest good intentions.

I think Jesus predicted what his message would do, it will cause division, but it was not his intention. We have thousands of Christian denominations, and history has shown swords were drawn. There should not be this division amongst ourselves. How does this fit in with the greatest commandments and to love and pray for your enemies. We all worship the same Jesus. Jesus talked about causing division in families, and history shows that beliefs will divide people. But the one division not mentioned was husband against wife.

Mathew 34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

How do you fight evil with love and kindness? How do you stand against a regime like Hitler, if you are not prepared to use a gun? Jesus said,
"Whoever loses their life for my sake will find it"

In the end, love will overcome evil, but in any kind of conflict, people can die.

Belindi wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 6:15 pm Nobody chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering.

If there is no God, then disease, disasters and death happen, end of story. The lessons we learn in life seem brutal. If there is a God, then God's promise is that after all our suffering, there is a greater good life after death.

To invent a supreme deity Who chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering is to invent a deity Who is less good and less just than Herr Hitler.

I think we are in a position to judge mankind for all the suffering we cause each other. I don't think we are in a position to judge God, which version of God will we judge? If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life, then his understanding will be above our understanding.

Some Christians come here to the philosophy discussion and don't even see there is the problem of evil.

The problem I see is that throughout history, many people don't want God in their lives, so he stays away.

I question our ideas of justice. We allowed around 5.2 million children to die from hunger and preventable disease in 2019. Almost a holocaust every year, are we carrying on from where Hitler stopped? There was enough food in the world, we just did not want to share it with those less fortunate. Billions are spent on the diet industry, what does that say about those who are starving. Billions are spent on the military, we are happy shooting people, but not feeding them.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor, the oppressed, widows, orphans and refugees. God has sent us all to be a part of the solution. And this gives me hope that God is just, fair, forgiving and merciful.

EricPH wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:59 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 6:15 pm Nobody chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering.

If there is no God, then disease, disasters and death happen, end of story. The lessons we learn in life seem brutal. If there is a God, then God's promise is that after all our suffering, there is a greater good life after death.

To invent a supreme deity Who chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering is to invent a deity Who is less good and less just than Herr Hitler.

I think we are in a position to judge mankind for all the suffering we cause each other. I don't think we are in a position to judge God, which version of God will we judge? If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life, then his understanding will be above our understanding.

Some Christians come here to the philosophy discussion and don't even see there is the problem of evil.

The problem I see is that throughout history, many people don't want God in their lives, so he stays away.

I question our ideas of justice. We allowed around 5.2 million children to die from hunger and preventable disease in 2019. Almost a holocaust every year, are we carrying on from where Hitler stopped? There was enough food in the world, we just did not want to share it with those less fortunate. Billions are spent on the diet industry, what does that say about those who are starving. Billions are spent on the military, we are happy shooting people, but not feeding them.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor, the oppressed, widows, orphans and refugees. God has sent us all to be a part of the solution. And this gives me hope that God is just, fair, forgiving and merciful.

If I don't at least sincerely try to evaluate the merits and demerits of all the deities and ideologies that I am aware of then I will not be a morally responsible person. I can't do much for widows, oppressed people, refugees, and orphans but as long as I have an intellect I can evaluate the gods and ideologies.

Chatting online is not an excuse for neglecting actions, and your charity work is a good example which benefits us to know about. However your theodicy is feeble.

Belindi wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 6:15 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 6:25 pm God could have created humans who would never suffer, never commit crimes, never be innocents punished for being innocent. But then he would have created a universe in which we are all automatons going through the motions and without free will to choose between good and evil. The atheist who rages against God has to wonder, sooner or later, whether his rage is not itself a choice of evil over good.

Nobody chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering. To invent a supreme deity Who chooses enormous natural disasters and unbearable suffering is to invent a deity Who is less good and less just than Herr Hitler.

Some Christians come here to the philosophy discussion and don't even see there is the problem of evil.

Some atheists come here and don't even see the hell they are spreading in this life and in the hereafter.

If I have to choose between a God who offers redemption and a Nogod who offers both natural and supernatural hells, guess which I will choose.

Belindi wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 7:52 am If I don't at least sincerely try to evaluate the merits and demerits of all the deities and ideologies that I am aware of then I will not be a morally responsible person.

What good is knowledge if we do not use it? I feel morality is more about what your beliefs inspire you to do.

However your theodicy is feeble.

I have an understanding as to what it inspires me to do. Yesterday, I spent time with a psychopath and schizophrenic who has murdered. Tomorrow, I am spending time with someone facing court. Last week whilst out at 3 am, we met a lady who said don't ever stop doing what you do. We had helped her about ten years ago, she said it changed her life. I am content with my feeble theodicy, because we seem to make a difference when we volunteer.

Re: Evidence of intelligent design (MEGA THREAD)

At some point, we might address the thread title.

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 8:17 am If I have to choose between a God who offers redemption and a Nogod who offers both natural and supernatural hells, guess which I will choose.

You don't think many atheists would choose the same thing. It's not about choosing one over the other. It's not like a game show where you see the prizes behind the two doors.

EricPH wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 10:15 am

Belindi wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 7:52 am If I don't at least sincerely try to evaluate the merits and demerits of all the deities and ideologies that I am aware of then I will not be a morally responsible person.

What good is knowledge if we do not use it? I feel morality is more about what your beliefs inspire you to do.

However your theodicy is feeble.

I have an understanding as to what it inspires me to do. Yesterday, I spent time with a psychopath and schizophrenic who has murdered. Tomorrow, I am spending time with someone facing court. Last week whilst out at 3 am, we met a lady who said don't ever stop doing what you do. We had helped her about ten years ago, she said it changed her life. I am content with my feeble theodicy, because we seem to make a difference when we volunteer.

Re: Evidence of intelligent design (MEGA THREAD)

At some point, we might address the thread title.

I understand and agree. The teachings you espouse work for you.
However these teachings about God don't work for many others, increasingly so as we learn to ask inconvenient questions. Philosophers try to find criteria for ethics and this is a philosophy forum.

So-called 'intelligent design' is an attempt by religious believers to use pseudo science to prove that God exists.