Philosophy Discussion Forums

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 11:42 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 14th, 2023, 7:33 am I believe vengeance harms the person inflicting this upon others, as well as the person receiving it. Innately, humans have empathy. We do not generally like seeing others suffer. It damages our soul when we deliberately seek and achieve vengeance. What we need to do instead is to heal ourselves from the wrongdoings of the other. However, if we want to stop the person to do bad things to others this becomes trickier.

How do we teach or command the other person to do better next time? Is there a different, more compassionate way to do this?

I think another point many fail to understand, is that many people that do horrible things, have actually had the same or worse things that have happened to them. So, perhaps they've already been "punished"? I would be more inclined to help them be better rather than to only seek vengeance.

Does the presence or absence of a formal societal justice system color your opinion of the concept of personal vengeance?

No. I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

I agree with your observations, though I personally find your analysis incomplete. Specifically your not addressing the issue of lowering the chance of repetitive events of aggression.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 4:47 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 11:42 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 14th, 2023, 7:33 am I believe vengeance harms the person inflicting this upon others, as well as the person receiving it. Innately, humans have empathy. We do not generally like seeing others suffer. It damages our soul when we deliberately seek and achieve vengeance. What we need to do instead is to heal ourselves from the wrongdoings of the other. However, if we want to stop the person to do bad things to others this becomes trickier.

How do we teach or command the other person to do better next time? Is there a different, more compassionate way to do this?

I think another point many fail to understand, is that many people that do horrible things, have actually had the same or worse things that have happened to them. So, perhaps they've already been "punished"? I would be more inclined to help them be better rather than to only seek vengeance.

Does the presence or absence of a formal societal justice system color your opinion of the concept of personal vengeance?

No. I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

I agree with your observations, though I personally find your analysis incomplete. Specifically your not addressing the issue of lowering the chance of repetitive events of aggression.

I think that's where the person seeking help for their issues, or being asked to seek help by the court system comes in. If they do not seek help, they will still have to live with their actions.

As an example, we were hit by a driver at very high speed due to them being on meth and intoxicated while driving. We were unharmed physically, but my son was emotionally harmed by the traumatic event. Now, rather than seeking vengeance as such, I wrote a statement of how this impacted our family to be shared with the driver. We did not seek money even though our car was ruined, and had to buy another. In the end, this person was ordered by the courts to do some rehabilitation programmes. They also received some time in "home detention" because they flew the scene and resisted police. They also lsot their drivers license.
We dealt with this life event as best as we could, and all I can do is hope this person has learnt their lesson and it doesn't happen again.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 9:41 am

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

Good for you! I agree with what you say. But I also think that some action — not vengeance — in the face of criminality is appropriate, to protect those who have yet to be harmed. For example, some criminals should be held apart from the rest of us, if they cannot be trusted not to harm others.

Yes I do agree that some actions require something to happen for the person to be better. And if they are given many chances and still don't improve, it does make it tricky. I feel though I would not personally be the one seeking vengeance or wishing harm on people. I think taking action is not the same as vengeance.

Do you think reporting a crime to police would be considered vengeance?
Or is vengeance when we actually take matters into our own hands? E.g.: an eye for an eye

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:17 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 4:47 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 11:42 pm

Does the presence or absence of a formal societal justice system color your opinion of the concept of personal vengeance?

No. I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

I agree with your observations, though I personally find your analysis incomplete. Specifically your not addressing the issue of lowering the chance of repetitive events of aggression.

I think that's where the person seeking help for their issues, or being asked to seek help by the court system comes in. If they do not seek help, they will still have to live with their actions.

As an example, we were hit by a driver at very high speed due to them being on meth and intoxicated while driving. We were unharmed physically, but my son was emotionally harmed by the traumatic event. Now, rather than seeking vengeance as such, I wrote a statement of how this impacted our family to be shared with the driver. We did not seek money even though our car was ruined, and had to buy another. In the end, this person was ordered by the courts to do some rehabilitation programmes. They also received some time in "home detention" because they flew the scene and resisted police. They also lsot their drivers license.
We dealt with this life event as best as we could, and all I can do is hope this person has learnt their lesson and it doesn't happen again.

As far as your anecdote, I agree with you that vengeance is inappropriate. For me it's because the justice system had jurisdiction thus in my opinion, there is no role for an individual to inject their personal version of "justice" in the form of vengeance.

However, what about an arena where there is no formal justice? Say, your very young son gets punched in the nose on the walk home from school by a punk kid. No teacher witnessed it, it wasn't on school grounds. No one is going to address this issue if you don't. What do you do?

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:20 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 9:41 am

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

Good for you! I agree with what you say. But I also think that some action — not vengeance — in the face of criminality is appropriate, to protect those who have yet to be harmed. For example, some criminals should be held apart from the rest of us, if they cannot be trusted not to harm others.

Yes I do agree that some actions require something to happen for the person to be better. And if they are given many chances and still don't improve, it does make it tricky. I feel though I would not personally be the one seeking vengeance or wishing harm on people. I think taking action is not the same as vengeance.

Do you think reporting a crime to police would be considered vengeance?
Or is vengeance when we actually take matters into our own hands? E.g.: an eye for an eye

To me reporting a crime to the formal justice system is not vengeance. Vengeance is dispensing your own "justice".

I don't think you can actually achieve true vengeance. You cannot 1-up a person not can you make them feel like you did in the moment that they caused you harm. That person can only experience remorse/guilt, be happy they benefited from their actions, or nothing at all.
So with those three options, if you seek vengeance you still won't make them feel what you did. I follow the Bible Scripture Romans 12:19-21
Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Also Deuteronomy 32:35-Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.’

Mounce574 wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:48 pm I don't think you can actually achieve true vengeance. You cannot 1-up a person not can you make them feel like you did in the moment that they caused you harm. That person can only experience remorse/guilt, be happy they benefited from their actions, or nothing at all.
So with those three options, if you seek vengeance you still won't make them feel what you did. I follow the Bible Scripture Romans 12:19-21
Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Also Deuteronomy 32:35-Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.’

Several things:

First, you don't make clear what your personal definition of "true vengeance" is, but whatever it is, based on your second sentence, it is not a commonly held one.

Second, based on your red comment, most who seek vengeance (obviously not you) are trying to accomplish different goals than what you suppose.

Lastly, your plan of awaiting justice until the afterlife is the ultimate delayed gratification. Very few can do that in Real Life and stay emotionally sound. If you can actually pull that off you are in a small minority. I'll be the first to admit I don't do that.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:08 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:17 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 4:47 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am

No. I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

I agree with your observations, though I personally find your analysis incomplete. Specifically your not addressing the issue of lowering the chance of repetitive events of aggression.

I think that's where the person seeking help for their issues, or being asked to seek help by the court system comes in. If they do not seek help, they will still have to live with their actions.

As an example, we were hit by a driver at very high speed due to them being on meth and intoxicated while driving. We were unharmed physically, but my son was emotionally harmed by the traumatic event. Now, rather than seeking vengeance as such, I wrote a statement of how this impacted our family to be shared with the driver. We did not seek money even though our car was ruined, and had to buy another. In the end, this person was ordered by the courts to do some rehabilitation programmes. They also received some time in "home detention" because they flew the scene and resisted police. They also lsot their drivers license.
We dealt with this life event as best as we could, and all I can do is hope this person has learnt their lesson and it doesn't happen again.

As far as your anecdote, I agree with you that vengeance is inappropriate. For me it's because the justice system had jurisdiction thus in my opinion, there is no role for an individual to inject their personal version of "justice" in the form of vengeance.

However, what about an arena where there is no formal justice? Say, your very young son gets punched in the nose on the walk home from school by a punk kid. No teacher witnessed it, it wasn't on school grounds. No one is going to address this issue if you don't. What do you do?

In this case, I'd probably try to pick up my child next time. If the area we live in isn't safe, I don't think he would be walking from school on his own.
Regardless, I would not personally do anything to harm the child that punched my child. As much as it would hurt, this experience would be something he/we would deal with as a family. I would support him emotionally, we would go to the drs if needed, maybe notify the school. We would then move on. I don't want my child to grow up thinking that we should take matters into our own hands.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:13 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:20 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 9:41 am

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

Good for you! I agree with what you say. But I also think that some action — not vengeance — in the face of criminality is appropriate, to protect those who have yet to be harmed. For example, some criminals should be held apart from the rest of us, if they cannot be trusted not to harm others.

Yes I do agree that some actions require something to happen for the person to be better. And if they are given many chances and still don't improve, it does make it tricky. I feel though I would not personally be the one seeking vengeance or wishing harm on people. I think taking action is not the same as vengeance.

Do you think reporting a crime to police would be considered vengeance?
Or is vengeance when we actually take matters into our own hands? E.g.: an eye for an eye

To me reporting a crime to the formal justice system is not vengeance. Vengeance is dispensing your own "justice".

Yes, I agree with you on that.

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 4:23 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:08 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:17 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 4:47 pm

I agree with your observations, though I personally find your analysis incomplete. Specifically your not addressing the issue of lowering the chance of repetitive events of aggression.

I think that's where the person seeking help for their issues, or being asked to seek help by the court system comes in. If they do not seek help, they will still have to live with their actions.

As an example, we were hit by a driver at very high speed due to them being on meth and intoxicated while driving. We were unharmed physically, but my son was emotionally harmed by the traumatic event. Now, rather than seeking vengeance as such, I wrote a statement of how this impacted our family to be shared with the driver. We did not seek money even though our car was ruined, and had to buy another. In the end, this person was ordered by the courts to do some rehabilitation programmes. They also received some time in "home detention" because they flew the scene and resisted police. They also lsot their drivers license.
We dealt with this life event as best as we could, and all I can do is hope this person has learnt their lesson and it doesn't happen again.

As far as your anecdote, I agree with you that vengeance is inappropriate. For me it's because the justice system had jurisdiction thus in my opinion, there is no role for an individual to inject their personal version of "justice" in the form of vengeance.

However, what about an arena where there is no formal justice? Say, your very young son gets punched in the nose on the walk home from school by a punk kid. No teacher witnessed it, it wasn't on school grounds. No one is going to address this issue if you don't. What do you do?

In this case, I'd probably try to pick up my child next time. If the area we live in isn't safe, I don't think he would be walking from school on his own.
Regardless, I would not personally do anything to harm the child that punched my child. As much as it would hurt, this experience would be something he/we would deal with as a family. I would support him emotionally, we would go to the drs if needed, maybe notify the school. We would then move on. I don't want my child to grow up thinking that we should take matters into our own hands.

I absolutely respect your answer. It is my experience that your's would be a popular take on the issue. However, I look at this scenario very differently. First I ask, why was my kid the target? Why aren't other kids targeted? It is likely that my kid is giving off a "victim" aura and if he didn't before, he has a high chance of doing so in the future if he responds to the assault by shrinking his presence in his world (of if his parents do it for him).

No, I want my kid to give off a "don't mess with me" aura. If he was capable, I would make it clear to him that he has our permission to do whatever it takes to defend himself, I would give him the skillset and information to do so effectively. If he had an older sibling this would be the perfect situation to have him even the score (though I agree with you that there is no role for me, as an adult to get directly involved).

To me the purpose of justice in general and vengeance in cases where there is no external justice is NOT to address what happened, it is to make sure future episodes are less likely to occur. After all the best predictor of future behaviour is past behavior. The wrongdoer needs to suffer a negative consequence of his action or he will have learned the pattern: if I victimize this guy nothing happens. You're actually increasing the total amount of wrongdoing by (tacitly) encouraging it, by not discouraging it.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 6:08 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 4:23 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:08 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 5:17 am

I think that's where the person seeking help for their issues, or being asked to seek help by the court system comes in. If they do not seek help, they will still have to live with their actions.

As an example, we were hit by a driver at very high speed due to them being on meth and intoxicated while driving. We were unharmed physically, but my son was emotionally harmed by the traumatic event. Now, rather than seeking vengeance as such, I wrote a statement of how this impacted our family to be shared with the driver. We did not seek money even though our car was ruined, and had to buy another. In the end, this person was ordered by the courts to do some rehabilitation programmes. They also received some time in "home detention" because they flew the scene and resisted police. They also lsot their drivers license.
We dealt with this life event as best as we could, and all I can do is hope this person has learnt their lesson and it doesn't happen again.

As far as your anecdote, I agree with you that vengeance is inappropriate. For me it's because the justice system had jurisdiction thus in my opinion, there is no role for an individual to inject their personal version of "justice" in the form of vengeance.

However, what about an arena where there is no formal justice? Say, your very young son gets punched in the nose on the walk home from school by a punk kid. No teacher witnessed it, it wasn't on school grounds. No one is going to address this issue if you don't. What do you do?

In this case, I'd probably try to pick up my child next time. If the area we live in isn't safe, I don't think he would be walking from school on his own.
Regardless, I would not personally do anything to harm the child that punched my child. As much as it would hurt, this experience would be something he/we would deal with as a family. I would support him emotionally, we would go to the drs if needed, maybe notify the school. We would then move on. I don't want my child to grow up thinking that we should take matters into our own hands.

I absolutely respect your answer. It is my experience that your's would be a popular take on the issue. However, I look at this scenario very differently. First I ask, why was my kid the target? Why aren't other kids targeted? It is likely that my kid is giving off a "victim" aura and if he didn't before, he has a high chance of doing so in the future if he responds to the assault by shrinking his presence in his world (of if his parents do it for him).

No, I want my kid to give off a "don't mess with me" aura. If he was capable, I would make it clear to him that he has our permission to do whatever it takes to defend himself, I would give him the skillset and information to do so effectively. If he had an older sibling this would be the perfect situation to have him even the score (though I agree with you that there is no role for me, as an adult to get directly involved).

To me the purpose of justice in general and vengeance in cases where there is no external justice is NOT to address what happened, it is to make sure future episodes are less likely to occur. After all the best predictor of future behaviour is past behavior. The wrongdoer needs to suffer a negative consequence of his action or he will have learned the pattern: if I victimize this guy nothing happens. You're actually increasing the total amount of wrongdoing by (tacitly) encouraging it, by not discouraging it.

I agree with you somewhat, and respect your views. However, I think many people have proven time and time again that they will do bad things again regardless of the consequences. So, in my view, violence doesn't stop violence.

I don't think this answers the question as such. But perhaps gives a bit more to unpack.

For instance, to answer the question about why said child was targeted, we would need to ask ourselves why people are beaten up - Is it because that child was beaten themselves? Were they hungry and trying to steal their lunch? Do they just not like the child? Are they trying to steal their money?

We could think of 100 reasons why, and depending on the answer, perhaps then we could ask ourselves what we could do to reduce the likelihood of it happening again.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:13 pm To me reporting a crime to the formal justice system is not vengeance. Vengeance is dispensing your own "justice".

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 4:25 am Yes, I agree with you on that.

I feel obliged to observe that the "formal justice system" itself could provide a sort of formalised state vengeance. And in some countries, it does just that, although it need not be so. But I do agree with LuckyR's original sentiment too.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 6:08 pm To me the purpose of justice in general and vengeance in cases where there is no external justice is NOT to address what happened, it is to make sure future episodes are less likely to occur.

For me, this is the sole useful purpose of law and justice. Not only "where there is no external justice", but in all cases. The law should seek to protect those innocents who have not yet been harmed. After all, we cannot undo whatever has already been done, but we can, as you describe, try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 25th, 2023, 1:01 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 6:08 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 4:23 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 20th, 2023, 4:08 pm

As far as your anecdote, I agree with you that vengeance is inappropriate. For me it's because the justice system had jurisdiction thus in my opinion, there is no role for an individual to inject their personal version of "justice" in the form of vengeance.

However, what about an arena where there is no formal justice? Say, your very young son gets punched in the nose on the walk home from school by a punk kid. No teacher witnessed it, it wasn't on school grounds. No one is going to address this issue if you don't. What do you do?

In this case, I'd probably try to pick up my child next time. If the area we live in isn't safe, I don't think he would be walking from school on his own.
Regardless, I would not personally do anything to harm the child that punched my child. As much as it would hurt, this experience would be something he/we would deal with as a family. I would support him emotionally, we would go to the drs if needed, maybe notify the school. We would then move on. I don't want my child to grow up thinking that we should take matters into our own hands.

I absolutely respect your answer. It is my experience that your's would be a popular take on the issue. However, I look at this scenario very differently. First I ask, why was my kid the target? Why aren't other kids targeted? It is likely that my kid is giving off a "victim" aura and if he didn't before, he has a high chance of doing so in the future if he responds to the assault by shrinking his presence in his world (of if his parents do it for him).

No, I want my kid to give off a "don't mess with me" aura. If he was capable, I would make it clear to him that he has our permission to do whatever it takes to defend himself, I would give him the skillset and information to do so effectively. If he had an older sibling this would be the perfect situation to have him even the score (though I agree with you that there is no role for me, as an adult to get directly involved).

To me the purpose of justice in general and vengeance in cases where there is no external justice is NOT to address what happened, it is to make sure future episodes are less likely to occur. After all the best predictor of future behaviour is past behavior. The wrongdoer needs to suffer a negative consequence of his action or he will have learned the pattern: if I victimize this guy nothing happens. You're actually increasing the total amount of wrongdoing by (tacitly) encouraging it, by not discouraging it.

I agree with you somewhat, and respect your views. However, I think many people have proven time and time again that they will do bad things again regardless of the consequences. So, in my view, violence doesn't stop violence.

I don't think this answers the question as such. But perhaps gives a bit more to unpack.

For instance, to answer the question about why said child was targeted, we would need to ask ourselves why people are beaten up - Is it because that child was beaten themselves? Were they hungry and trying to steal their lunch? Do they just not like the child? Are they trying to steal their money?

We could think of 100 reasons why, and depending on the answer, perhaps then we could ask ourselves what we could do to reduce the likelihood of it happening again.

Oh, I have no illusions that I (or my kid) can make the bully stop bullying. My goal is to have the bully stop bullying MY kid. If he bullies someone else's kid instead of mine, that's a victory for my family. Of course if getting his clock cleaned by my kid, or his brother makes the bully stop bullying altogether, fantastic, but I agree that is likely wishful thinking.

Similarly, when I ask: why was my kid victimized, I don't mean "why" in the abstract, I mean: why my kid instead of the kid next to him. I want bullies to think twice (maybe three times) before they try anything with my kid. It's kind of like a catalytic converter shield, it doesn't need to make it impossible to vandalize our car, it just needs to make other cars easier to vandalize. Bullies (and car prowlers) aren't brave or courageous, they like low hanging fruit, easy pickings. You just need to be more difficult to victimize than the next guy, you don't need to be the most difficult to victimize.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 25th, 2023, 9:36 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 24th, 2023, 6:08 pm To me the purpose of justice in general and vengeance in cases where there is no external justice is NOT to address what happened, it is to make sure future episodes are less likely to occur.

For me, this is the sole useful purpose of law and justice. Not only "where there is no external justice", but in all cases. The law should seek to protect those innocents who have not yet been harmed. After all, we cannot undo whatever has already been done, but we can, as you describe, try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

We're in agreement on the particulars, but my logic train works in the reverse order: if the goal is less future evil behavior, then attaching negative consequences to current evil behavior is a mechanism for accomplishing the goal. If the formal justice system provides the negative consequences, great. If the formal justice system does not ( or rarely will not) operate in the particular setting in question, I support individuals providing that negative incentive. This is what is commonly labeled vengeance.