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Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 6:24 pm
by Consul
News from the Vatican:
"Gender-affirming surgery threatens ‘unique dignity’ of a person, Vatican says…"
Source:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/08/worl ... -says-intl
Here's the original text:
"Gender Theory
55. The Church wishes, first of all, “to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence.”[101] For this reason, it should be denounced as contrary to human dignity the fact that, in some places, not a few people are imprisoned, tortured, and even deprived of the good of life solely because of their sexual orientation.
56. At the same time, the Church highlights the definite critical issues present in gender theory. On this point, Pope Francis has reminded us that “the path to peace calls for respect for human rights, in accordance with the simple yet clear formulation contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose seventy-fifth anniversary we recently celebrated. These principles are self-evident and commonly accepted. Regrettably, in recent decades, attempts have been made to introduce new rights that are neither fully consistent with those originally defined nor always acceptable. They have led to instances of ideological colonization, in which gender theory plays a central role; the latter is extremely dangerous since it cancels differences in its claim to make everyone equal.”[102]
57. Regarding gender theory, whose scientific coherence is the subject of considerable debate among experts, the Church recalls that human life in all its dimensions, both physical and spiritual, is a gift from God. This gift is to be accepted with gratitude and placed at the service of the good. Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel.
58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them. In the male-female couple, this difference achieves the most marvelous of reciprocities. It thus becomes the source of that miracle that never ceases to surprise us: the arrival of new human beings in the world.
59. In this sense, respect for both one’s own body and that of others is crucial in light of the proliferation of claims to new rights advanced by gender theory. This ideology “envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family.”[103] It thus becomes unacceptable that “some ideologies of this sort, which seek to respond to what are at times understandable aspirations, manage to assert themselves as absolute and unquestionable, even dictating how children should be raised. It needs to be emphasized that ‘biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.’”[104] Therefore, all attempts to obscure reference to the ineliminable sexual difference between man and woman are to be rejected: “We cannot separate the masculine and the feminine from God’s work of creation, which is prior to all our decisions and experiences, and where biological elements exist which are impossible to ignore.”[105] Only by acknowledging and accepting this difference in reciprocity can each person fully discover themselves, their dignity, and their identity.
Sex Change
60. The dignity of the body cannot be considered inferior to that of the person as such. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly invites us to recognize that “the human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God.’”[106] Such a truth deserves to be remembered, especially when it comes to sex change, for humans are inseparably composed of both body and soul. In this, the body serves as the living context in which the interiority of the soul unfolds and manifests itself, as it does also through the network of human relationships. Constituting the person’s being, the soul and the body both participate in the dignity that characterizes every human.[107] Moreover, the body participates in that dignity as it is endowed with personal meanings, particularly in its sexed condition.[108] It is in the body that each person recognizes himself or herself as generated by others, and it is through their bodies that men and women can establish a loving relationship capable of generating other persons. Teaching about the need to respect the natural order of the human person, Pope Francis affirmed that “creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”[109] It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception. This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here."
Source: Declaration Dignitas Infinita on Human Dignity
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 6:28 pm
by Consul
Consul wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 6:24 pm
"Sex Change
60. …It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception.…"
Source: Declaration Dignitas Infinita on Human Dignity
I'm an atheist (an antitheist, to be more precise), and I emphatically distance myself from this theological bull$hit!
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 7:21 pm
by Consul
Joanne Rowling is making a lot of sense!
"I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.
I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.
Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.
Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.
Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.
I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation."
—J. K. Rowling (April 6, 2024): https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1 ... 1888655835
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 7:27 pm
by Hereandnow
Fried Egg wrote
And does it even matter?
I think you put the whole matter to rest with this simple question. After all, even if I do have this "male" circuitry running through my existence, and fools like J K Rowling and Jordan Peterson think this is important, who cares? A society like ours is literally made of ignoring such boundaries. We fly in spite of not having wings.
Gender is a fluid concept, something to be explored, and the assignment of who one is is a choice that should be determined as one sees fit, out "innate sense" of gender notwithstanding.
I don't really have an innate sense for standing before others and speaking, at least, I didn't think I did. But I have been doing this for thirty years now, and it has been VERY agreeable and productive.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 7:45 pm
by Hereandnow
Joanne Rowling is making a lot of sense!
Here is where I disagree:
our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot.....I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.
The real harm issues from the rigidity of historical thinking, which is understandable. But this is not simply not the point. The point is freedom. There is nothing in the biological structures of being male or female that can intrude on a person's freedom to do anything with her private affairs regarding gender choice. They may make a bad decision, but then, staying within the boundaries of an unwelcome biological imposition might also be a mistake.
We are a culture in transition, and things may be moving too fast. But in the end, choice rules. One is no more bound to the gender of physicality than she is bound walking instead of driving or flying. Defying boundaries, this is what progress and freedom ARE.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 7:47 pm
by Consul
Consul wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 4:52 pm
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 12:40 amOther research has shown that if gender dysphoria persists during puberty, it is very likely permanent.[12][13][14] Factors that are associated with gender dysphoria persisting through puberty include intensity of gender dysphoria, amount of cross-gendered behavior, and verbal identification with the desired/experienced gender (i.e. stating that they are a different gender rather than wish to be a different gender).[14][15]
…
Okay, as far as I recall, the statistical data my statement is based on concern the percentage of remissions of gender dysphoria before or during puberty (without any medical or surgical intervention).
Here's something from 2016:
"Do trans- kids stay trans- when they grow up?
Following the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic for children, I have been receiving requests for what the science says. Do kids grow out of wanting to change sex, or does it continue when they are adults?
In total, there have been three large scale follow-up studies and a handful of smaller ones. I have listed all of them below, together with their results. (In the table, “cis-” means non-transsexual.) Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
Source: http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html
Here's something from 2021:
"A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors. Multinomial logistic regression examined predictors of outcome for the biphilic/androphilic persisters and the gynephilic desisters, with the biphilic/androphilic desisters as the reference group. Compared to the reference group, the biphilic/androphilic persisters tended to be older at the time of the assessment in childhood, were from a lower social class background, and, on a dimensional composite of sex-typed behavior in childhood were more gender-variant. The biphilic/androphilic desisters were more gender-variant compared to the gynephilic desisters. Boys clinic-referred for gender identity concerns in childhood had a high rate of desistance and a high rate of a biphilic/androphilic sexual orientation. The implications of the data for current models of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children are discussed."
Source: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ps ... 32784/full
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 9:19 pm
by popeye1945
Sexuality is not voluntary there is no intellectual will one needs to exercise to be attracted to the opposite sex, it is as involuntary as breathing. Male and females function together as two aspects of one thing, species. Sexual drive is the most powerful dive of all organisms, it has a destiny to fulfill, to procreate the next generation. This absurd movement displaces reason and fact for the personal feelings of the less-than-gifted intellectual portion of humanity. What is so attractive to these people about chaos? Because the sexual drive is as powerful as it is, it needs relief, if one jerks off what gender does that make one? Animals humping other animals of the same sex or one's leg is a means of getting relief it doesn't mean there is a new gender that prefers to mate with legs or hump a blanket. Laugh at these people, you cannot reason with people like this, it is mindless and, therefore, powerfully attractive to a lazy mind. Would you like to swing on a star, and carry moonbeams home in a jar, you do get it?
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 11:35 pm
by Lagayascienza
Belinda wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 2:46 pm
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 9:36 am
Well, I feel like a man. I like to do things men generally like to do, I don't wear a bra and I stand when I pee. I imagine (although I cannot be 100% certain) that it would feel very different, in lots of ways, to feel like a woman. For example, I've had discussions with the women in my life about their feelings around sex. And their feelings are different to mine. Of course, both men and women enjoy sex, and whilst the saying that "men give love for sex and women give sex for love" is an exaggeration, it probably contains an element of truth. Which would make biological sense given the different reproductive roles of the two sexes. To deny that there would be differences in our feelings seems to me as silly as denying that there are differences in our anatomy and physiology, in our hormones and our reproductive roles. Thus, given all these other differences, it would be strange if feeling like a woman were not different to feeling like a man. This difference in feeling is what is in play in "gender identity" and gender dysphoria.
And this brings me back to neuroanatomical differences in the brains of people with gender dysphoria compared to cisgender brains. If a person with male genitalia has a brain that causes him to feel like he is really female, which bit of his/her anatomy do we accord greater significance to, the brain or the penis? It a hard one. No, not that! I mean it's a hard question. But since we cannot change the brain, but can change the genitalia, what is to be done to relieve his/her suffering? I think the answer is clear. In which case, debates about the term "gender identity" become irrelevant.
I am surprised you number among those, LaGayScienza!
Belinda, my name here is nothing to do with being gay. Whilst I couldn't care less if folks think I am gay, I have not disclosed my sexuality here and people should not make assumptions about it.
La Gaya Scienza is the Italian title of my favorite work by Nietzsche. In German it is
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft and in English it is usually translated as
The Joyful Wisdom . It is the most poetic of his works. The writing is achingly beautiful. It argues for the merits of science, skepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 8th, 2024, 11:48 pm
by Lagayascienza
Who cares what the latest pointy-hat on the Vatican throne has to say. The immorality of the Catholic church is legendary - it is rotten from top to bottom and has been since its inception. People have within themselves the ability to know right from wrong and outsourcing morality to a corrupt religious organizations is just laziness. The sheeple would be better off reading Nietzsche.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 12:59 am
by Sy Borg
JK Rowling has an interesting notion of having great sympathy for people with gender dysphoria. She recommends that they be free to effectively become sidelined freaks without the chance to lead relatively normal lives.
One common motivation for a sex change is to invisibly slip into the other gender role, although there seem to be different "types", be they visible and part of the queer scene, or invisible and blending into mainstream. I would think that being able to lead a relatively normal life would be useful, allowing such people can put their dysphoria behind them and get on with productive life, eg. Wendy Carlos.
However, if transpeople are granted none of services and circumstances of their adopted gender, then there is no way for them to address their gender dysphoria.
It beggars belief that all transpeople would go through all the pain and struggle just to wear dresses and lop off their boy bits. That would assume gobsmacking superficiality on the part of transpeople. One would think that being able to live and interact as the target sex (as much as is possible) would be the goal, rather than them simply destroying their lives for mere outside appearances. Surely appearance is more of a tool for transsexuals than an end in itself??
For an author, JK seems to be surprising superficial and weak at putting herself in others' shoes. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and guess that this is a blind spot of hers, a hangup.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 6:15 am
by Belinda
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 11:35 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 2:46 pm
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 9:36 am
Well, I feel like a man. I like to do things men generally like to do, I don't wear a bra and I stand when I pee. I imagine (although I cannot be 100% certain) that it would feel very different, in lots of ways, to feel like a woman. For example, I've had discussions with the women in my life about their feelings around sex. And their feelings are different to mine. Of course, both men and women enjoy sex, and whilst the saying that "men give love for sex and women give sex for love" is an exaggeration, it probably contains an element of truth. Which would make biological sense given the different reproductive roles of the two sexes. To deny that there would be differences in our feelings seems to me as silly as denying that there are differences in our anatomy and physiology, in our hormones and our reproductive roles. Thus, given all these other differences, it would be strange if feeling like a woman were not different to feeling like a man. This difference in feeling is what is in play in "gender identity" and gender dysphoria.
And this brings me back to neuroanatomical differences in the brains of people with gender dysphoria compared to cisgender brains. If a person with male genitalia has a brain that causes him to feel like he is really female, which bit of his/her anatomy do we accord greater significance to, the brain or the penis? It a hard one. No, not that! I mean it's a hard question. But since we cannot change the brain, but can change the genitalia, what is to be done to relieve his/her suffering? I think the answer is clear. In which case, debates about the term "gender identity" become irrelevant.
I am surprised you number among those, LaGayScienza!
Belinda, my name here is nothing to do with being gay. Whilst I couldn't care less if folks think I am gay, I have not disclosed my sexuality here and people should not make assumptions about it. La Gaya Scienza is the Italian title of my favorite work by Nietzsche. In German it is Die fröhliche Wissenschaft and in English it is usually translated asThe Joyful Wisdom . It is the most poetic of his works. The writing is achingly beautiful. It argues for the merits of science, skepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom.
I have never referred to your name, and I was not referring to your name in my post! I know fine that La Gaya Scienza is a work of philosophy and I have known it long before I first read your name on this forum. I am only sorry I can't read it in German.
I was referring to your usual breadth of ideas, and that your idea about gender was not the standard I expected from you.
As a matter of fact, I think gender as a way of categorising people is an entirely different category from sexual orientation as a way of categorising people. Categorising people is a means to controlling people .
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 6:33 am
by Belinda
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 5:35 pm
When males dogs try to screw each other, they are not thinking about what they are doing, This practice is common enough. GIven the realites of evolution it is a misnomer to say that such practices are "FOR" an purpose, but we may reflect upon what advantages such preactices may have.
Since evolution is the result of practices which are consistent with survival, the only way we moght say that homosexual practices are "confused" or "diseased" is if they have negative consquences on survival.
Dogs screwing do not have any negative effects on reproductive success or survival. There is always an excess of sexual energy available and females are limited to a few litters of pups per year. But male dogs that screw are not fighting and are bonding. It does not take cuh imagination to see how such practices might be of great positive use to the survival of the pack.
Ancient Greek warriors would commonly bond with shared sexual experiences and this was part of a hugely successful military practice of the Phalanx.
So not only are "deviant" practices perfectly natural they may be part of a survival strategy.
That is interesting , and I am a little surprised that the rightly famous TV dog trainer , Graeme, has not explained this .
He must surely know it, and he must be patronising his TV audience that he fails to describe it like you have done regarding the evolution of dogs.
I hope that you will write about the evolutionary advantage ( or otherwise) of specific human ideas such as gender, (or Roman Catholic doctrine for that matter.) This study would have important political implications .
My point is briefly that I hope cultures evolve . If not, then humans are in grave danger and we will take a lot of other species to hell with us.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 6:43 am
by Lagayascienza
Belinda wrote: ↑April 9th, 2024, 6:15 am
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 11:35 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 2:46 pm
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 9:36 am
Well, I feel like a man. I like to do things men generally like to do, I don't wear a bra and I stand when I pee. I imagine (although I cannot be 100% certain) that it would feel very different, in lots of ways, to feel like a woman. For example, I've had discussions with the women in my life about their feelings around sex. And their feelings are different to mine. Of course, both men and women enjoy sex, and whilst the saying that "men give love for sex and women give sex for love" is an exaggeration, it probably contains an element of truth. Which would make biological sense given the different reproductive roles of the two sexes. To deny that there would be differences in our feelings seems to me as silly as denying that there are differences in our anatomy and physiology, in our hormones and our reproductive roles. Thus, given all these other differences, it would be strange if feeling like a woman were not different to feeling like a man. This difference in feeling is what is in play in "gender identity" and gender dysphoria.
And this brings me back to neuroanatomical differences in the brains of people with gender dysphoria compared to cisgender brains. If a person with male genitalia has a brain that causes him to feel like he is really female, which bit of his/her anatomy do we accord greater significance to, the brain or the penis? It a hard one. No, not that! I mean it's a hard question. But since we cannot change the brain, but can change the genitalia, what is to be done to relieve his/her suffering? I think the answer is clear. In which case, debates about the term "gender identity" become irrelevant.
I am surprised you number among those, LaGayScienza!
Belinda, my name here is nothing to do with being gay. Whilst I couldn't care less if folks think I am gay, I have not disclosed my sexuality here and people should not make assumptions about it. La Gaya Scienza is the Italian title of my favorite work by Nietzsche. In German it is Die fröhliche Wissenschaft and in English it is usually translated asThe Joyful Wisdom . It is the most poetic of his works. The writing is achingly beautiful. It argues for the merits of science, skepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom.
I have never referred to your name, and I was not referring to your name in my post! I know fine that La Gaya Scienza is a work of philosophy and I have known it long before I first read your name on this forum. I am only sorry I can't read it in German.
I was referring to your usual breadth of ideas, and that your idea about gender was not the standard I expected from you.
As a matter of fact, I think gender as a way of categorising people is an entirely different category from sexual orientation as a way of categorising people. Categorising people is a means to controlling people .
Ah, yes,
Belinda, I see now. I misread what you wrote. You were not pointing out my name as if, in light of it, you were surprised at my comments about gender. My apologies.
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 7:25 am
by Fried Egg
Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 3:32 pmI find it strange that hetero and homo orientations are not questioned, but transpeople are ruthlessly questioned - but they have existed for a long as gays. It's just something that happens to certain people who manage to win life's booby prize. To top it off, everyone thinks they are mad for it. Poor blighters.
It is not strange at all as I have already addressed. Someone who is gay does not need medical treatment; the suppression of healthy body transformations (puberty), chemical intervention (cross sex hormones), the surgical removal of otherwise healthy body parts (e.g. mastectomy) or even the sterilisation of an otherwise fertile person or the disruption in one's ability to climax, etc.
And when one is considering administering any of the above to children then is it really any wonder why they should be questioned?
Why do some people keep trying to draw parallels between sexuality and gender?
Re: Is there such a thing as an innate sense of gender?
Posted: April 9th, 2024, 7:28 am
by Lagayascienza
Belinda wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 2:46 pm
Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 8th, 2024, 9:36 am
Well, I feel like a man. I like to do things men generally like to do, I don't wear a bra and I stand when I pee. I imagine (although I cannot be 100% certain) that it would feel very different, in lots of ways, to feel like a woman. For example, I've had discussions with the women in my life about their feelings around sex. And their feelings are different to mine. Of course, both men and women enjoy sex, and whilst the saying that "men give love for sex and women give sex for love" is an exaggeration, it probably contains an element of truth. Which would make biological sense given the different reproductive roles of the two sexes. To deny that there would be differences in our feelings seems to me as silly as denying that there are differences in our anatomy and physiology, in our hormones and our reproductive roles. Thus, given all these other differences, it would be strange if feeling like a woman were not different to feeling like a man. This difference in feeling is what is in play in "gender identity" and gender dysphoria.
And this brings me back to neuroanatomical differences in the brains of people with gender dysphoria compared to cisgender brains. If a person with male genitalia has a brain that causes him to feel like he is really female, which bit of his/her anatomy do we accord greater significance to, the brain or the penis? It a hard one. No, not that! I mean it's a hard question. But since we cannot change the brain, but can change the genitalia, what is to be done to relieve his/her suffering? I think the answer is clear. In which case, debates about the term "gender identity" become irrelevant.
I understand all the feelings you list even though I feel like a member of the female sex. There is no use for the word ' gender' as there already is an understandable word 'sex'.
Some women stand when they pee and some women do not wear bras. If you can't think of reasons why they choose to do so you lack the imagination that would help you out.
True, there are people who persist in believing that behaviours pertain either to one sex or
the other but not both i.e. the exclusive 'or' .I am surprised you number among those, LaGayScienza! Look around at how the more enlightened social world has changed so that women now can behave exactly as men behave and vice versa. There are moves afoot to remove the 'glass ceiling' so woman can exert as much power as men in the market place ..There are moves to criminalise hate speech that is directed towards a perception of someone's gender.
Obviously what is to be done to relieve a so-called 'transgender ' person's suffering is change the culture of belief so that all may say that gender does not exist in that culture of belief. The result is that behaviours are explained by heuristics other than gender.
Belinda, you asked:
Belinda wrote: I am finding it very difficult to assign behaviors to genders. Is there one or more behaviours that define a gender?
What is it like to "feel like" a gender? I don't feel like any gender so I sincerely ask this question."
And so, as a man, I told you what it feels like, to me, to be of the male gender, and about the behaviors I thought that entailed for me. I was not saying all men feel the same way about their maleness or behave in the same way as me. And I was not saying that some women do not exhibit behaviors that I generally associate with my maleness.