Philosophy Discussion Forums

Stoppelmann wrote: ↑March 27th, 2023, 10:08 am

Leontiskos wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 11:26 pm The trouble is that there are different and competing moral theories used to explain law, and law is in one sense a natural phenomenon rather than a merely positive phenomenon. Law is not a fully rationally transparent construction. It is an amorphous amalgamation of historical human governance.

Yet vengeance, properly defined, is an essential part of law and justice. I might recommend C.S. Lewis' famous essay, "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment." *

* http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ResJud/1954/30.pdf

Reading what Lewis has to say is really interesting, and the fact that the criminal is no longer punished for what he morally “deserves,” (retributive justice) because he should have known better, which is judged by someone who interprets the law, instead his punishment is a deterrent, making him an example for others or a means to an end. Or his punishment is a means to “cure” him (or her) of a supposed disorder is truly a change to what was initially intended. It shifts the expertise from the judge to a psychologist or psychiatrist, and lumps the criminal together with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals, who do not know better, instead of being seen a human being who behaved erroneously and to the detriment of society.

Lewis makes the point that such measures make his punishment morally questionable, if there is no question of him “deserving” it, because he, as a fully responsible human being, should have known better. And, as we have sometimes had reason to ask, is making someone an example and a deterrent for others dependant upon them having committed the crime? We have had reason to ask when the evidence was flimsy, but a racial or political bias apparent, or the police were looking for a quick conclusion of the investigation and excessive sentences were issued.
Thank you, it is an important aspect.

Yes indeed, you read well. This is a very astute understanding of what Lewis was trying to say in that essay. When it comes to punishment, if one is to respect the dignity and autonomy of the one being punished, retributive justice cannot be abandoned. Things like deterrence or reform can never simply replace the retributive aspect of punishment.

Vengeance is as common as gossip. It's ubiquitous is what I mean. It's not found though in certain, how shall I put it?, places on earth. How cool is that?! What's our next move? Are we in zugzwang? Some would love to think so and some would love to think not so.

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 4:00 am Vengeance is as common as gossip. It's ubiquitous is what I mean. It's not found though in certain, how shall I put it?, places on earth. How cool is that?! What's our next move? Are we in zugzwang? Some would love to think so and some would love to think not so.

Maybe I'm not getting something obvious, but which places are you speaking of?

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:36 pm

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 4:00 am Vengeance is as common as gossip. It's ubiquitous is what I mean. It's not found though in certain, how shall I put it?, places on earth. How cool is that?! What's our next move? Are we in zugzwang? Some would love to think so and some would love to think not so.

Maybe I'm not getting something obvious, but which places are you speaking of?

Do you see vengeance everywhere?

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 9:02 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:36 pm

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 4:00 am Vengeance is as common as gossip. It's ubiquitous is what I mean. It's not found though in certain, how shall I put it?, places on earth. How cool is that?! What's our next move? Are we in zugzwang? Some would love to think so and some would love to think not so.

Maybe I'm not getting something obvious, but which places are you speaking of?

Do you see vengeance everywhere?

Geographicly or situationally?

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 11:58 am

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 9:02 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:36 pm

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 4:00 am Vengeance is as common as gossip. It's ubiquitous is what I mean. It's not found though in certain, how shall I put it?, places on earth. How cool is that?! What's our next move? Are we in zugzwang? Some would love to think so and some would love to think not so.

Maybe I'm not getting something obvious, but which places are you speaking of?

Do you see vengeance everywhere?

Geographicly or situationally?

The distinction is irrelevant. Give me an instance where what I said is present is.

Scott wrote: ↑March 19th, 2008, 11:19 pm [The following topic is featured as a leadup to the May philosophy book of the month discussion of Holding Fire.]

If you haven't already, check out this blog post I made: Vengeance, Payback, Revenge.

What do you think? How do you dissuade people from vengeance? What arguments do you have against vengeance? What do you see as the flaws in the philosophy of an eye for an eye? How can we convince people not to make policy choices based on vengeance?

Like anybody, I may succumb to emotions in the heat of the moment (which is almost always regrettable), but I generally do not support vengeance and instead choose compassion. But I want to know what arguments you have against vengeance.

Vengeance (ill-will, byāpāda {Pali}) is one of the five hindrances, blocks progess and release, is always related to strong wrong view and nourished leads downwardly to hell.
So a wise relays on the opposite, goodwill (metta), maintains right view (gratitude), gives release, wins thereby release, is able to progress and opens up release, good householder.

Dhammapada wrote:'He insulted me,
hit me,
beat me,
robbed me'
— for those who brood on this,
hostility isn't stilled.

'He insulted me,
hit me,
beat me,
robbed me' —
for those who don't brood on this,
hostility is stilled.

Hostilities aren't stilled
through hostility,
regardless.
Hostilities are stilled
through non-hostility:
this, an unending truth.

Unlike those who don't realize
that we're here on the verge
of perishing,
those who do:
their quarrels are stilled.

(btw: meassures hit back... "You can’t post image, email or url links that are external to this domain. Please remove http scottsafetyshop com")

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 3:21 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 11:58 am

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 9:02 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:36 pm

Maybe I'm not getting something obvious, but which places are you speaking of?

Do you see vengeance everywhere?

Geographicly or situationally?

The distinction is irrelevant. Give me an instance where what I said is present is.

Why so cryptic? ... interest waning...

Aversion is always based on the believe that one is capable to hold control over what's regarded as own, as refuge. When this wrong believe get's weakened by obiviously decay, seperation, aversion looks after deny reality.
Seeking causes of breaking of what shouldn't break, holding on even if already broken, or believing that whats subject to decay can be placed into a kind of "original" state, is what makes desire for vengeance.

So a total foolish and useless unskilful mind-quality.

Source of anger, of course, is always love, holding dear, craving, affliction.

Ill-will becomes total destroyed when all indentifications, wish of control, within the sensual world has been abounded. A state only open to Non-returner and some who developed the Brahma-attitudes.

(Btw. moderator or admins are always much in danger of falling into grave states of ill-will)

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 7:25 pm

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 3:21 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 11:58 am

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 9:02 pm

Do you see vengeance everywhere?

Geographicly or situationally?

The distinction is irrelevant. Give me an instance where what I said is present is.

Why so cryptic? ... interest waning...

Good question and the answer?

I haven't really gotten out much if you catch me drift, LuckyR. You sound like you've been everywhere. Add two and two together and we get ____?

Vengeance is a dicey and fascinating concept. So let me tell you about my root. I am a Ghanaian and there are instances in my country where people get vindictive and in the heat of the moment rain curses on people who have wronged them. And you know what? If really the person is in the wrong and is at the receiving end of the curse, they do get sick or even die if the curse is not reversed. I think vengeance solely depends on how an individual sees the world and the experiences he or she has accumulated over the years.

If a person has been faced with injustices for a while and realizes that people in the wrong or people who wrong him or her mostly get away with it, it will be difficult to convince such a person of being vengeful if the person has his or her mind made up about it.

I believe that when a human takes a stand on something and believes it’s the right thing it’s difficult to change their mind. That brings me back to the essence of therapy. I believe it’s only right that people who are faced with injustices or people in general seek help from therapy sessions. It is only fair that an expert help in conditioning and helping people get through being vengeful.
To dissuade a vengeful person will take time and effort. I think it’s helpful when you let the person see that there’s no reward for being vengeful and there is no fulfillment in that as well. Introduce the person to people who have being in his or her position and have turned a new leaf and let them encourage and share their experiences. I think this way can dissuade the vengeful person.

The philosophy of an eye for an eye has its flaws, in the sense that human beings are constantly offending one another. If we are to go by this philosophy, it means that, everyone will have the right to get back at the other person whenever they wrong them. That will breed total chaos in the world.

I believe that by showing compassion and empathy even towards people who are definitely in the wrong, we are wiring our minds to mate out fair justices based on need and not from a vengeful place.

I believe vengeance harms the person inflicting this upon others, as well as the person receiving it. Innately, humans have empathy. We do not generally like seeing others suffer. It damages our soul when we deliberately seek and achieve vengeance. What we need to do instead is to heal ourselves from the wrongdoings of the other. However, if we want to stop the person to do bad things to others this becomes trickier.

How do we teach or command the other person to do better next time? Is there a different, more compassionate way to do this?

I think another point many fail to understand, is that many people that do horrible things, have actually had the same or worse things that have happened to them. So, perhaps they've already been "punished"? I would be more inclined to help them be better rather than to only seek vengeance.

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 14th, 2023, 7:33 am I believe vengeance harms the person inflicting this upon others, as well as the person receiving it. Innately, humans have empathy. We do not generally like seeing others suffer. It damages our soul when we deliberately seek and achieve vengeance. What we need to do instead is to heal ourselves from the wrongdoings of the other. However, if we want to stop the person to do bad things to others this becomes trickier.

How do we teach or command the other person to do better next time? Is there a different, more compassionate way to do this?

I think another point many fail to understand, is that many people that do horrible things, have actually had the same or worse things that have happened to them. So, perhaps they've already been "punished"? I would be more inclined to help them be better rather than to only seek vengeance.

Does the presence or absence of a formal societal justice system color your opinion of the concept of personal vengeance?

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 15th, 2023, 11:42 pm

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 14th, 2023, 7:33 am I believe vengeance harms the person inflicting this upon others, as well as the person receiving it. Innately, humans have empathy. We do not generally like seeing others suffer. It damages our soul when we deliberately seek and achieve vengeance. What we need to do instead is to heal ourselves from the wrongdoings of the other. However, if we want to stop the person to do bad things to others this becomes trickier.

How do we teach or command the other person to do better next time? Is there a different, more compassionate way to do this?

I think another point many fail to understand, is that many people that do horrible things, have actually had the same or worse things that have happened to them. So, perhaps they've already been "punished"? I would be more inclined to help them be better rather than to only seek vengeance.

Does the presence or absence of a formal societal justice system color your opinion of the concept of personal vengeance?

No. I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

Catalina Isabel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2023, 5:14 am I do not believe in vengeance regardless of the justice system. I've experienced people doing bad things to me/my family and did not seek vengeance. I believe the act of them doing these things will eventually catch up to them. Also, being upset or holding onto the anger will not help me, and neither would seeking vengeance.

Good for you! I agree with what you say. But I also think that some action — not vengeance — in the face of criminality is appropriate, to protect those who have yet to be harmed. For example, some criminals should be held apart from the rest of us, if they cannot be trusted not to harm others.