Philosophy Discussion Forums

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 12:54 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 4:20 pm Yes, the Palestinians want to reclaim what they believe is their homeland...

I have a question. Several times in this topic, IIRC, you have commented that, after 75 years, the Palestinians should just accept 1948 and move on. It's a fair question. But it occurs to me that the Jews pursued exactly those same hopes and dreams of reclaiming their homeland, but they have pursued them since the eighth century BCE, nearly 3000 years!. After such an enormous amount of time has passed, shouldn't your question apply also to the Jews?

There is no symettry in the twp claims.

The disputed land in not simply the land stolen from Palestinians in 1948, with a coup.
It is all the other land they have stolen since then, expecially the land taken in 2 wars started by Isreal since 1948, and declared illegal by the United Nations.
There is also the massive issue of piecemeal evictions of Palestinians families in homes and from land they have lived in and on for generations, to be replaced with imported Jews from America often with absolutely no previous connection with the land. There is also the issue of illegal detentions, especailly of chidlren without trial or representation.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 12:54 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 4:20 pm Yes, the Palestinians want to reclaim what they believe is their homeland...

I have a question. Several times in this topic, IIRC, you have commented that, after 75 years, the Palestinians should just accept 1948 and move on. It's a fair question. But it occurs to me that the Jews pursued exactly those same hopes and dreams of reclaiming their homeland, but they have pursued them since the eighth century BCE, nearly 3000 years!. After such an enormous amount of time has passed, shouldn't your question apply also to the Jews?

Why are you denying that this is a two-sided situation? Both you and others either deny or ignore the scouring of the Jews of Muslim countries. It seems that the Jewish are being erased.

There is so much care about Palestinians - millions marching everywhere - and zero care for Jews. This can only be due to either complete ignorance of the situation are anti-Semitism, probably both.

After the war was "the Jewish exodus" but it seems that everyone want to deny that that happened now. https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/ ... ld-history

Until the 1960s, approximately one million Jews lived in Iran and other Arab countries having arrived in the region more than 2,000 years before. Nowadays, it is estimated that only around 15,000 remain, as the majority of the Jewish population in Muslim lands were forced to flee their homes in the years following the establishment of the State of Israel. This mass expulsion and exodus is part of modern history, but inexplicably, it’s neither taught at schools nor remembered within the context of the conflicts in the Middle East.

For over 2,500 years, Jews lived continuously in North Africa, the Middle East and the Gulf region the first Jewish population had already settled there at least 1,000 years before the advent of Islam.

Throughout the generations, Jews in the region were often subjected to various forms of discrimination -- and in many cases, ranked lower on the status of society than their Muslim compatriots -- but they were nevertheless loyal citizens who contributed significantly to the culture and development of their respective countries.

Despite the positive influence that Jews brought to the places where they lived, more than 850,000 Jews were forced to leave their homes in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, and several other Arab countries in the 20 years that followed the Arab-Israeli war of 1948. Another major forced migration took place from Iran in 1979–80, following the Iranian Revolution and the collapse of the shah’s regime, adding 70,000 more Jewish refugees to this number.

There is ample evidence that this conduct against Jews was orchestrated in tandem as a joint effort of all the involved Arab countries. Among the events preceding the expulsion were: (a) The drafting of a Law by the Political Committee of the Arab League that recommended a coordinated strategy of repressive measures against Jews; (b) strikingly similar legislation and discriminatory decrees, enacted by numerous Arab governments, that violated the fundamental rights and freedoms of Jews resident in Arab countries; (c) statements made by delegates of Arab countries at the U.N. during the debate on the ‘Partition Resolution’, representing a pattern of ominous threats made against Jews in Arab countries; and (d) newspaper reports from that period.

In 1947, the Political Committee of the Arab League (League of Arab States) drafted a law that was to govern the legal status of Jewish residents in all of its member states. This Draft Law of the Arab League provided that “...all Jews – with the exception of citizens of non-Arab countries – were to be considered members of the Jewish ‘minority state of Palestine’; that their bank accounts would be frozen and used to finance resistance to ‘Zionist ambitions in Palestine; Jews believed to be active Zionists would be interned as political prisoners and their assets confiscated; only Jews who accept active service in Arab armies or place themselves at the disposal of these armies would be considered ‘Arabs.”

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 3:06 pm‘Arabs.”

[/quote]

So are you trying to say that the mass murder and destruction of Gaza is an apt response to Iran expelling Jews?

... Or do you think that the rise in antisemitism might be guided by Isreal's behavour in encouraging hatred of Arabs, and the fact that they have waged war upon them?
As it seems that since 1948 the Jews, who once lived peacefully throughout the Arab world have been at the receiveing end of suspicion.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 4:20 pm Yes, the Palestinians want to reclaim what they believe is their their homeland - it is currently called Israel.

"Isreal" a concept invented by Arthur Balfour in 1917 based on an ancient idea, last realised in the reign of the Emperor Hadrian, by whom it was terminated 1900 years ago.

Maybe its a good idea to re-set the map back, the the Aboriginees could have Australia back, all the countries of the Americas could revert to their original indigenes, and we would also have to redraw the maps of the rest of the continents.
English would have to to be granted the RIGHT OF RETURN to Germany. I'm sure they would love that.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 4:20 pm Yes, the Palestinians want to reclaim what they believe is their their homeland - it is currently called Israel.

The disputed land in not simply the land stolen from Palestinians in 1948, with a coup.
It is all the other land they have stolen since then, expecially the land taken in 2 wars started by Isreal since 1948, and declared illegal by the United Nations.
There is also the massive issue of piecemeal evictions of Palestinians families in homes and from land they have lived in and on for generations, to be replaced with imported Jews from America often with absolutely no previous connection with the land. There is also the issue of illegal detentions, especailly of chidlren without trial or representation.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 5:02 pmThe disputed land in not simply the land stolen from Palestinians in 1948, with a coup.
It is all the other land they have stolen since then, expecially the land taken in 2 wars started by Isreal since 1948, and declared illegal by the United Nations.

"2 wars started by Israel since 1948"? – Which ones?

* The 1948 war was started by a coalition of five Arab states (Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria).

* The 1967 war (Six-Day War) was started by Israel as a preemptive strike against Egypt's aggressive military moves.

* The 1973 war (Yom Kippur War) was started by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria.

Consul wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 6:21 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 5:02 pmThe disputed land in not simply the land stolen from Palestinians in 1948, with a coup.
It is all the other land they have stolen since then, expecially the land taken in 2 wars started by Isreal since 1948, and declared illegal by the United Nations.

"2 wars started by Israel since 1948"? – Which ones?

* The 1948 war was started by a coalition of five Arab states (Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria).

* The 1967 war (Six-Day War) was started by Israel as a preemptive strike against Egypt's aggressive military moves.

* The 1973 war (Yom Kippur War) was started by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria.

And the current war was started by Hamas's missile strikes and kidnappings.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 12:54 pmI have a question. Several times in this topic, IIRC, you have commented that, after 75 years, the Palestinians should just accept 1948 and move on.

Yes, they'd better acknowledge Israel's right to (continue to) exist, because there will never be peace in Palestine unless they do so.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 5:02 pmThe disputed land in not simply the land stolen from Palestinians in 1948, with a coup.

I don't want to sound cynical, but they lost the 1948 war and had to pay the bitter price resulting from their defeat, part of which was losing land and people being forced to leave.

Consul wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 7:36 pmI don't want to sound cynical, but [the Arabs] lost the 1948 war and had to pay the bitter price resulting from their defeat, part of which was losing land and people being forced to leave.

Wouldn't the Arabs have done the same to the Jews if they had won the war? They sure would have, since they strongly desired to get rid of the Jews in Palestine! Unfortunately for them, they didn't succeed.

Consul wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 7:53 pm

Consul wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 7:36 pmI don't want to sound cynical, but [the Arabs] lost the 1948 war and had to pay the bitter price resulting from their defeat, part of which was losing land and people being forced to leave.

Wouldn't the Arabs have done the same to the Jews if they had won the war? They sure would have, since they strongly desired to get rid of the Jews in Palestine! Unfortunately for them, they didn't succeed.

It should be mentioned that there was not only a (voluntary or involuntary) Palestinian exodus but also a Jewish one:

"In the 20th century, approximately 900,000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries throughout Africa and Asia. Primarily a consequence of the Israeli Declaration of Independence, the mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s, with one final exodus of Iranian Jews occurring shortly after the Islamic Revolution in 1979–1980. An estimated 650,000 (72%) of these Jews resettled in Israel."

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ex ... slim_world

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 11:06 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 30th, 2023, 8:01 am It is certainly not supportive of Israel, but it is clear from the words that the slogan is not anti-Israel (or anti-Jewish), but PRO-Palestinian.

And yet my final sentence, above, still stands, I think? And it is a very strange thing to compare the Palestinians' actions to those of Nazis, however obliquely, when it is Israel that is pursuing genocidal policies. Palestinians simply hope to reclaim their homeland...

If they're still hoping to get rid of Israel & the Jews, they'd better bury that unrealistic hope. (Israel has nuclear weapons, you know!)

The antisemitic Hamas propaganda is as nasty as the Nazi propaganda!

As for Israel's allegedly "genocidal policies", the OED defines "genocide" as "the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group." Is Israel trying to deliberately and systematically exterminate the Palestinians? – I don't think so! Prove me wrong if you can!

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 4:47 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 3:06 pm‘Arabs.”

So are you trying to say that the mass murder and destruction of Gaza is an apt response to Iran expelling Jews?

By speaking of "mass murder", you're asserting falsely that the IDF has been ordered to directly kill innocent civilians. The non-Hamas Palestinians who were or will be killed were not murdered, because they weren't or won't have been intentionally targeted by the IDF—as opposed to the Hamas Palestinians.
Do you think Israel is morally unjustified in snuffing the Hamas guys? – I hope you don't!
Unfortunately for the IDF, given the urban-warfare situation in Gaza and Hamas' human-shield tactics, civilian casualities are unavoidable in the war against Hamas. However, believe it or not, Israel does try to avoid civilian causalities—but not at all costs regarding itself and its security. If any amount of human "collateral damage" on the Palestinian side is deemed morally unjustifiable, then it is impermissible in principle for Israel to take any military action against Hamas within the Gaza Strip. And this would mean that the only thing Israel is permitted to do in terms of a violent reaction to Hamas' 10/7 massacre is to do nothing. But the Israelis cannot be morally expected to leave Hamas in peace given what they have done to them!

Many Palestinians (and many other Arabs) have been publicly celebrating Hamas' 10/7 massacre of innocent Jews. How many Jews have been publicly celebrating the IDF-caused death of innocent Palestinians in Gaza?!