Philosophy Discussion Forums

Atla wrote: ↑February 1st, 2022, 3:52 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑January 31st, 2022, 3:54 pm So... All matter traveling through the universe leaves an imprint on the fluctuating virtual fields (the closed one particle propagators seen in Feynman diagrams). By entanglement. If these virtual flelds are excited they contain information.

Ah now I remember, I rejected this line of thinking long ago. Imo we can't just decide that "X is real when it suits us. X isn't real, it's just virtual, when it suits us."

Those "virtual fields" should represent some perfectly real underlying substratum of the universe or multiverse, that always carry information like everything else does. So this would solve nothing about the information paradox, it just delegates the paradox to the underlying substratum.

I'm not sure I get this. If the particles in a black hole hole are entangled with (real) virtual particles, don't the virtual particles carry away inside information when the strong curvature of space near the horizon realizes them?

Raymond wrote: ↑February 1st, 2022, 6:00 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 1st, 2022, 3:52 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑January 31st, 2022, 3:54 pm So... All matter traveling through the universe leaves an imprint on the fluctuating virtual fields (the closed one particle propagators seen in Feynman diagrams). By entanglement. If these virtual flelds are excited they contain information.

Ah now I remember, I rejected this line of thinking long ago. Imo we can't just decide that "X is real when it suits us. X isn't real, it's just virtual, when it suits us."

Those "virtual fields" should represent some perfectly real underlying substratum of the universe or multiverse, that always carry information like everything else does. So this would solve nothing about the information paradox, it just delegates the paradox to the underlying substratum.

I'm not sure I get this. If the particles in a black hole hole are entangled with (real) virtual particles, don't the virtual particles carry away inside information when the strong curvature of space near the horizon realizes them?

I'm saying that virtual fields should carry information everywhere, even where parts of them don't get "realized". Non-realized virtual fields are also real things.

Atla wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 1:14 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 1st, 2022, 6:00 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 1st, 2022, 3:52 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑January 31st, 2022, 3:54 pm So... All matter traveling through the universe leaves an imprint on the fluctuating virtual fields (the closed one particle propagators seen in Feynman diagrams). By entanglement. If these virtual flelds are excited they contain information.

Entanglements don't last forever. If matter fall in a black hole it is radiated away almòst immediately
Ah now I remember, I rejected this line of thinking long ago. Imo we can't just decide that "X is real when it suits us. X isn't real, it's just virtual, when it suits us."

Those "virtual fields" should represent some perfectly real underlying substratum of the universe or multiverse, that always carry information like everything else does. So this would solve nothing about the information paradox, it just delegates the paradox to the underlying substratum.

I'm not sure I get this. If the particles in a black hole hole are entangled with (real) virtual particles, don't the virtual particles carry away inside information when the strong curvature of space near the horizon realizes them?

I'm saying that virtual fields should carry information everywhere, even where parts of them don't get "realized". Non-realized virtual fields are also real things.

Entanglements break up. If matter falls in a hole it is radiated away almost instantly. To us this seems to take very long though.

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 4:45 am Entanglements break up. If matter falls in a hole it is radiated away almost instantly. To us this seems to take very long though.

Yes but I'm not talking about entanglement right now. All I'm is saying that the entirety of the virtual field is also "real". Those fluctuations of the virtual field should all carry information, even if they don't get realized. So now we merely pushed the information paradox into the virtual field.

Atla wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 11:22 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 4:45 am Entanglements break up. If matter falls in a hole it is radiated away almost instantly. To us this seems to take very long though.

Yes but I'm not talking about entanglement right now. All I'm is saying that the entirety of the virtual field is also "real". Those fluctuations of the virtual field should all carry information, even if they don't get realized. So now we merely pushed the information paradox into the virtual field.

The momenta of the virtual particles get entangled with the momenta of the infalling particles, so when they are realized by the gravity field they contain the momentum and energy of the infalling particles. Virtual particles possess all energy and 3-momentum values at once so the infalling particled can get their 4-momentum entangled with the right value, i.e., there own, so it's the infalling particle's 4-momentum that gets realized from the vacuum.

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 5:32 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 11:22 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 4:45 am Entanglements break up. If matter falls in a hole it is radiated away almost instantly. To us this seems to take very long though.

Yes but I'm not talking about entanglement right now. All I'm is saying that the entirety of the virtual field is also "real". Those fluctuations of the virtual field should all carry information, even if they don't get realized. So now we merely pushed the information paradox into the virtual field.

The momenta of the virtual particles get entangled with the momenta of the infalling particles, so when they are realized by the gravity field they contain the momentum and energy of the infalling particles. Virtual particles possess all energy and 3-momentum values at once so the infalling particled can get their 4-momentum entangled with the right value, i.e., there own, so it's the infalling particle's 4-momentum that gets realized from the vacuum.

You're just not replying to what I'm saying.

Atla wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 9:57 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 5:32 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 11:22 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2022, 4:45 am Entanglements break up. If matter falls in a hole it is radiated away almost instantly. To us this seems to take very long though.

Yes but I'm not talking about entanglement right now. All I'm is saying that the entirety of the virtual field is also "real". Those fluctuations of the virtual field should all carry information, even if they don't get realized. So now we merely pushed the information paradox into the virtual field.

The momenta of the virtual particles get entangled with the momenta of the infalling particles, so when they are realized by the gravity field they contain the momentum and energy of the infalling particles. Virtual particles possess all energy and 3-momentum values at once so the infalling particled can get their 4-momentum entangled with the right value, i.e., there own, so it's the infalling particle's 4-momentum that gets realized from the vacuum.

You're just not replying to what I'm saying.

I have replied all times! There is no fixed information in a virtual particle. It contains all energies and momenta, including negative values. If a real particle passes on the horizon of a black hole the momentum of the real particle induces the same value in the virtual one (the vacuum bubble, the closed propagator). The virtual particle stays in this entangled state for a short while but long enough to get realized by the strongly curved space (the virtual particle gets torn apart in a positive and negative energy particle, the negative energy one annihilating part of the inside mass, the positive one carrying away the information, the 4-momentum, of the real particle that fell inside. How you want me to react? To say you are right?

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 2:02 am I have replied all times! There is no fixed information in a virtual particle. It contains all energies and momenta, including negative values. If a real particle passes on the horizon of a black hole the momentum of the real particle induces the same value in the virtual one (the vacuum bubble, the closed propagator). The virtual particle stays in this entangled state for a short while but long enough to get realized by the strongly curved space (the virtual particle gets torn apart in a positive and negative energy particle, the negative energy one annihilating part of the inside mass, the positive one carrying away the information, the 4-momentum, of the real particle that fell inside. How you want me to react? To say you are right?

We'll have to disagree, I don't think that the virtual field and the realization process are nothing and something at the same time.

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 11:36 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 2:02 am I have replied all times! There is no fixed information in a virtual particle. It contains all energies and momenta, including negative values. If a real particle passes on the horizon of a black hole the momentum of the real particle induces the same value in the virtual one (the vacuum bubble, the closed propagator). The virtual particle stays in this entangled state for a short while but long enough to get realized by the strongly curved space (the virtual particle gets torn apart in a positive and negative energy particle, the negative energy one annihilating part of the inside mass, the positive one carrying away the information, the 4-momentum, of the real particle that fell inside. How you want me to react? To say you are right?

We'll have to disagree, I don't think that the virtual field and the realization process are nothing and something at the same time.

Neither do I think. I think they are everything and something at the time of entanglement. They contain all energies and 3-momenta at the same time. Negative as well as positive values. They collapse to the values of the real particles. A virtual particle is not virtual in the sense of non-existent. It's virtual because momentum and energy are not on mass shell.

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 1:14 pm Neither do I think. I think they are everything and something at the time of entanglement. They contain all energies and 3-momenta at the same time. Negative as well as positive values. They collapse to the values of the real particles. A virtual particle is not virtual in the sense of non-existent. It's virtual because momentum and energy are not on mass shell.

Right, so collapsing to the values of the real particles, changes the state of the virtual field. So we have pushed back the information paradox to the virtual field, but it remains equally unsolved.

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:09 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 1:14 pm Neither do I think. I think they are everything and something at the time of entanglement. They contain all energies and 3-momenta at the same time. Negative as well as positive values. They collapse to the values of the real particles. A virtual particle is not virtual in the sense of non-existent. It's virtual because momentum and energy are not on mass shell.

Right, so collapsing to the values of the real particles, changes the state of the virtual field. So we have pushed back the information paradox to the virtual field, but it remains equally unsolved.

But the information in the hole is not lost. It escapes by means of the temporary entanglement with the virtual field outside. According to the paradox, this information is lost. At first sight. But it isn't. Paradox solved.

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:21 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:09 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 1:14 pm Neither do I think. I think they are everything and something at the time of entanglement. They contain all energies and 3-momenta at the same time. Negative as well as positive values. They collapse to the values of the real particles. A virtual particle is not virtual in the sense of non-existent. It's virtual because momentum and energy are not on mass shell.

Right, so collapsing to the values of the real particles, changes the state of the virtual field. So we have pushed back the information paradox to the virtual field, but it remains equally unsolved.

But the information in the hole is not lost. It escapes by means of the temporary entanglement with the virtual field outside. According to the paradox, this information is lost. At first sight. But it isn't. Paradox solved.

Again, I don't think we can treat the virtual field as something and nothing at the same time. Solving the information paradox of the infalling matter by creating another information paradox within the virtual field, solves nothing, it just sounds good. I'll leave it at this.

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:40 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:21 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:09 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 1:14 pm Neither do I think. I think they are everything and something at the time of entanglement. They contain all energies and 3-momenta at the same time. Negative as well as positive values. They collapse to the values of the real particles. A virtual particle is not virtual in the sense of non-existent. It's virtual because momentum and energy are not on mass shell.

Right, so collapsing to the values of the real particles, changes the state of the virtual field. So we have pushed back the information paradox to the virtual field, but it remains equally unsolved.

But the information in the hole is not lost. It escapes by means of the temporary entanglement with the virtual field outside. According to the paradox, this information is lost. At first sight. But it isn't. Paradox solved.

Again, I don't think we can treat the virtual field as something and nothing at the same time. Solving the information paradox of the infalling matter by creating another information paradox within the virtual field, solves nothing, it just sounds good. I'll leave it at this.

The point is, the virtual never is treated as nothing. On the contrary, it's treated like everything at once. When a particle passes it can therefore entangle with precislely the right 4-momentum. Positive and negative energy. The negative energy particle annihilates the particle inside the hole, the positive annihilates with a positive anti particle and escapes as light carrying inside information.

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 6:22 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:40 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:21 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:09 pm
Right, so collapsing to the values of the real particles, changes the state of the virtual field. So we have pushed back the information paradox to the virtual field, but it remains equally unsolved.

But the information in the hole is not lost. It escapes by means of the temporary entanglement with the virtual field outside. According to the paradox, this information is lost. At first sight. But it isn't. Paradox solved.

Again, I don't think we can treat the virtual field as something and nothing at the same time. Solving the information paradox of the infalling matter by creating another information paradox within the virtual field, solves nothing, it just sounds good. I'll leave it at this.

The point is, the virtual never is treated as nothing. On the contrary, it's treated like everything at once. When a particle passes it can therefore entangle with precislely the right 4-momentum. Positive and negative energy. The negative energy particle annihilates the particle inside the hole, the positive annihilates with a positive anti particle and escapes as light carrying inside information.

It is treated as nothing when we talk about a process that involves the virtual field and caused a change, while also maintaining that the virtual field didn't change.

Atla wrote: ↑February 4th, 2022, 10:55 am

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 6:22 pm

Atla wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:40 pm

Raymond wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2022, 4:21 pm

But the information in the hole is not lost. It escapes by means of the temporary entanglement with the virtual field outside. According to the paradox, this information is lost. At first sight. But it isn't. Paradox solved.

Again, I don't think we can treat the virtual field as something and nothing at the same time. Solving the information paradox of the infalling matter by creating another information paradox within the virtual field, solves nothing, it just sounds good. I'll leave it at this.

The point is, the virtual never is treated as nothing. On the contrary, it's treated like everything at once. When a particle passes it can therefore entangle with precislely the right 4-momentum. Positive and negative energy. The negative energy particle annihilates the particle inside the hole, the positive annihilates with a positive anti particle and escapes as light carrying inside information.

It is treated as nothing when we talk about a process that involves the virtual field and caused a change, while also maintaining that the virtual field didn't change.

Here you lost me. Treated as nothin? Virtual fields are not non-existing. The word "virtual" is just to set it opposite to real fields. A field of a real particle obeys the relativistic energy momentum relation. It lays on shell. An excitation of the field. Virtual particles are fluctuations of the field (so not excitations). These don't obey that relation, ie, the particles are off-shell.
Both are real existent. The virtual particles have, up to the Planck scale, all energies (+ and -) and all 3-momenta at the same time.