Philosophy Discussion Forums

The most hidden aspect is the social welfare one is on, once you claimed this a vauluable thing to study. Due to the fact that nobody wants to have you as an employee for good reasons.

@PoeticUniverse

I have just been reading your discussion on the supernatural and I think it can be that sometimes, the idea of the 'cosmic' is seen as separate and detached from the natural world. This was argued by Lyall Watson in his book, 'Supernature. He suggests that this is particularly the case when aspects of life, such as premonitions are seen as paranormal. I think that his argument is important and when thinking about Jung's ideas on archetypes it is useful to view these as permeating life. This may be a bit different from Kant's idea of the transcendent, or Plato's theory of forms. But, of course, these writers were approaching the matter completely outside of the framework of science as we know it today. My own view is that it is useful to blend the ideas of religious and esoteric philosophies with the scientific.

As far as the history of religion which you document as having a negative effect, I think that this really says more about human nature. Both religion and science can be used and abused by mankind. I am not sure that it is really the systems of belief that are at fault ultimately. If anything, it may be that the esoteric systems of belief are more about the cultivation of the inner life, with potential for the development of greater self awareness and reflective awareness, rather than the following of the outer aspects of religious practice in mainstream religion. I do believe that this may in many instances, but not necessarily always, result in deeper concern for other people and other lifeforms. As it is, human beings have so much to worry about, with the ecological threats, as well as the potential for mass destruction through sophisticated weapons. Therefore, I think that there is a need to 'wake up' as conscious individual human beings. This can be aided through the various traditions of thought, including esoteric ideas.

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 15th, 2021, 2:13 pm …the esoteric systems of belief are more about the cultivation of the inner life, with potential for the development of greater self awareness and reflective awareness, rather than the following of the outer aspects of religious practice in mainstream religion. I do believe that this may in many instances, but not necessarily always, result in deeper concern for other people and other lifeforms. As it is, human beings have so much to worry about, with the ecological threats, as well as the potential for mass destruction through sophisticated weapons. Therefore, I think that there is a need to 'wake up' as conscious individual human beings. This can be aided through the various traditions of thought, including esoteric ideas.

Here is a thread on mastering oneself:

viewtopic.php?p=391934#p391934

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 15th, 2021, 2:13 pm I have just been reading your discussion on the supernatural and I think it can be that sometimes, the idea of the 'cosmic' is seen as separate and detached from the natural world. This was argued by Lyall Watson in his book, 'Supernature. He suggests that this is particularly the case when aspects of life, such as premonitions are seen as paranormal. I think that his argument is important and when thinking about Jung's ideas on archetypes it is useful to view these as permeating life.

The archetypes might be such as to produce offspring, to attribute agency to nature, to attribute agency to consciousness as we being in charge therein in real time, to ever look out for oneself as #1, to protect the credibility of our beliefs that have become in us as 'good' in the face of differing beliefs in the country next door that soon get labeled as 'not good' unto they being called 'evil', these differences in cultures eventually causing wars.

@PoeticUniverse


Even though I mentioned archetypes as being important, I think that you are focusing on the outer effects of religion. I am not saying that the effects of beliefs are not important but they are separate from the actual people who developed teachings. In particular, wars may have been fought by Christians, but that is the human corruption which is in mainstream religion, and was not the idea behind the teachings of Jesus.


I feel that you are not seeing the point that the esoteric path is about the inner development of spirituality. This was explored by Bucke in his study, 'Cosmic Consciousness.' He describes this development in the following way:
'The faculty itself has many names, but they have not been understood or recognized...Gautama himself, or some of his early disciples called it "Nirvana" because of the extinction" of certain lower mental faculties (such as the sense of sin, fear of death, desire of wealth, etc, etc.) which is indirectly incident upon its birth. The subjugation of the old personality along with the birth of the new is, in fact, almost equivalent to the annihilation of the old and the creation of a new self. '
In his study, Bucke looks at the transformation of consciousness in many people in history, including Jesus, the Buddha, Walt Whitman and Dante. The important aspect is the illumination of consciousness, and this is a central aspect of the esoteric tradition or quest.

@3017Metaphysican


I was reading your post in which you wrote about LSD experiments etc.and as for, people being able to do the 'impossible', my own experience was that taking substances, including magic mushrooms, often had the effect of making me completely dysfunctional, and ended up having to go to bed. However, sometimes such experiences, recalled at a later point, had creative potential. Nevertheless, I do know people who are able to use substances, especially cocaine, and perform so well on them, but I have never tried this. On my bookshelf, I have noticed that I have a book on states of rapture, and addiction. Many writers, such as Kerouac, used alcohol to write on, and so many rock stars use alcohol and drugs. What I have read is that microdosing on Lsd has been shown to be helpful for depression. Really, I think that there needs to be more availability or opportunity for using small amounts of psychedelics to enhance creativity, and, perhaps, my own experience of ending up having to go to bed.

As far as creativity is concerned, I do agree that it is an experience which all people can experience. I know of people who have spoken of peak experiences while playing cricket, and so many also have eureka moments. I tend to think of creativity as being an aspect relevant to art, music and writing, but that is simply because I have a bias towards the arts. I do believe that the sense of wonder is something relevant to all human experience, and that it lies behind the underlying religious quest.

PoeticUniverse wrote: ↑August 13th, 2021, 3:21 pm

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑August 13th, 2021, 2:02 pm Man wonders, what do they see in me
They try so much, but cannot touch
My inner mystery

Now when I try to show them
They still cannot see
My truth to them
Is simply that, which is me

?

God did it!

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 3:04 am In his study, Bucke looks at the transformation of consciousness in many people in history, including Jesus, the Buddha, Walt Whitman and Dante. The important aspect is the illumination of consciousness, and this is a central aspect of the esoteric tradition or quest.

Some master themselves and brightly shine. Walt Whitman had a good description of the body-brain-being-the-same. Buddha went for illusion, impermanence, emptiness, and disciplining the self that isn't. Dante developed the seven levels of Hell.

Others crash into the wall of life.

Not much more to tell.


The 'daydream' part of the avatar 'JackDaydream' brings us back to the chance for imagination to more freely come up with ideas since then there is some peace from the ongoing life concerns dominating thoughts. Archetypes mix into the daydreams.

“Daydreams pierce the noise of consciousness, to tell us of that which is best for us.”

“Daydreams are full of thoughts promenading, on parade, before our own eye’s shading.”

“Wishes and fantasies cascade freely over the mind, directly presenting themselves to us, in kind, as our very own suggested roads to find.”

“Well, by merely aspiring to the goal’s net, one’s already halfway to the realization of it.”

“Yes, and all that we now have together, blest, was once a dream, no less, that was loved into being, from merely the seeing.”

“Because life grows from visions we contemplate, those that we symphonically orchestrate.”

“Yes, but one must act on those plans already made.”

“True, for, by dusk, the phantom shapes may fade.”

“Well, if beliefs are blown but of a halfhearted fife, then so will be one’s life.”

“Let our dreams, wishes, in the main, become one and the same!”

“Listen to your desires and wishes, for it seems that it’s one’s duty to fulfill them.”

“It guarantees happiness, really, for then you know exactly what you require to be happy.”

“Come along, oh, I beam, sweet-dream!”

“We’re awakening, musing in a world of our making.”

Pay attention to your leanings and ken—
The daydreams welling up from your soul’s den;
You’re the golden chalice to life’s dript blood!
Oh, drink deep life’s bountiful wine—the flood!

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 8:54 am God did it!

*** compilation error *** ungrounded variable ***

*** preaching error *** misleading fiat ***

PoeticUniverse wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 2:09 pm

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 8:54 am God did it!

*** compilation error *** ungrounded variable ***

*** preaching error *** misleading fiat ***

PU!

I know, it is hard to save face sometimes. But that's ok, there's a common fallacy that I think captures your dilemma:

Ad hoc fallacy is a fallacious rhetorical strategy in which a person presents a new explanation – that is unjustified or simply unreasonable – of why their original belief or hypothesis is correct after evidence that contradicts the previous explanation has emerged. As such, it’s an attempt to protect one’s claim from any potential refutations and thus preserve their existing beliefs. Furthermore, the explanation is specifically constructed to be used in a particular case and is created hastily at the moment rather than being the result of deliberate, fact-based reasoning.


Man wonders, what do they see in me
They try so much, but cannot touch
My inner mystery

Now when I try to show them
They still cannot see
My truth to them
Is simply that, which is me

I still think 'your God did it'.

@PoeticUniverse

I am all in favour of imagination and I wish to see all the various angles and views. Generally, I am more inclined to mythos rather than logos. I have spent a lot of time in the last few years dwelling on all the big philosophy questions. It is so easy to end up going into knots, spirals and mazes, and I know that I often tend to look for ultimate answers. But, in my new 'daydream' identity I am hoping to think about these matters in the most imaginative way. I chose the avatar name because someone nicknamed me after the Mr Men character, Mr Daydream.


I do believe that the inner world of imagination, which is recognized by the esoteric thinkers offers so much scope, although I do believe that some people are afraid to look at the universe within. But, there is so much to explore, and this includes traditions such as Celtic arts and the wisdom of the North American Indians. So, really, even though I am interested in philosophy, including Western philosophy, I do wish to be open to many possible sources of knowledge and thought..

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 3:15 pm It is so easy to end up going into knots, spirals and mazes, and I know that I often tend to look for ultimate answers. But, in my new 'daydream' identity I am hoping to think about these matters in the most imaginative way.

— Omar

@PoeticUniverse


You have an extremely psychedelic mind and don't even need the magic mushrooms or morning glory seeds. I am still amazed that you do all your art on photoshop, but it is extremely effective, and seems to me to enter into the multiverse.

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 16th, 2021, 5:01 pm psychedelic

An acid trip, with some attempts at 3D without glasses that don't always work all that well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjRyHrFqccU

JackDaydream wrote: ↑August 13th, 2021, 9:12 am @3017Metaphysican

Hello again, and thank you for your reply to my first thread. I do wonder how different the history of Christianity would have been if the Gnostic teachings, as revealed in the Gnostic gospels, had been incorporated into the church, rather than the main ones.

You would have ended with a Gnostic Christian church and view of Yahweh as a vile genocidal demiurge.

You would have a moral theology in a universalist Christianity instead of the vile religion it is today for gays and women.

You would also have a Christianity based on facts and not supernatural fictions and immoral tenets that have never had Midrash applied to them the way Jews did.

Jews smart and moral while Christians are dumb to accept immoral tenets.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink /videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
moyers/journal/03132009/watch.

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL


Regards
DL