Philosophy Discussion Forums

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:46 pm Sorry for late reply.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 2:46 pm Truth, good, and beauty are aspects of the same whole. If you were to experience beauty you would also experience good and truth.If you were to experience truth you would also experience beauty and good.If you were to experience good you would also experience truth and beauty.

Okay. Let's go by your way. Why your faith don't want to include "bad and beast" with "Truth" like Truth included Good and Beauty?
If one considers "World", there is not just Beauty, but also Earthquakes, etc. That is the holistic view.
Why negate "Bad and Beast and etc." from "Truth"

Belindi wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 2:46 pm I can't be 100% sure that your particular creed is untrue. It does however lack reason, because the law you espouse depends on the authority of others such as priests, kings, and male relations, and this is unrealistic.

Lack Reason?? Authority??
Thank God, I didn't give Authority to Sensual Experience like People Ignorantly do. Authority to one who is Truly Peaceful and never affected by any action/experience, is True Authority/Security I feel.
Male Relations? See, I never hate Woman. I respect them. Even I respect Men, and on the same time point out what's misunderstood/lag/etc. as I said about Woman. I think you might need my female friends phone numbers. Never have I been rude to them or hate them. I'm not like the Hindutva Male/Afghan Men hating Women.

You don't know about Me or My Behaviour, and falsely assuming how I live by misunderstanding what I try to point out.

Truth , good, and beauty are not in the world. Bad is relative absence of good, truth, and beauty.

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 2:05 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:32 pm This "may way or the highway" attitude is fairly standard for partisan theists.

I never said "My path is the right". Never do religions.
They say, "If you be in this path, you shall not be attached to World and suffer, ignorant of who you are". Do one really want to find out Truth, or to suit 'Something' to Truth which one like?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:32 pm Theist beliefs are maintained by refusing to consider information that may undermine those beliefs. By contrast, when science is done well, it does not lock itself into dogma but considers all new information, and is prepared to change if new data turns up. This open-minded approach is incompatible with the commitment demanded by religions.

Open-Minded? Do you need that? And bring havoc to Earth by that Open-Minded? Can't you see how much destruction that Open-Minded bring to Body,Mother Earth, etc.?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:32 pm An analogy would be marriage. A partner commits to another, and they deliberately don't try to find out who they missed on by making a commitment. On a personal level that is positive. It allows one to settle and get on with life, instead of restlessly seeking an upgrade. By contrast, science done well has no commitment; science is simply a machine designed to increase human knowledge of how physical reality works.

Increase Human Knowledge and so destroy the way of Living/Society by Divorces, Drugs, etc.?

See, this is not just Commitment between Partners but raising Good Children to Society. No Husband or Wife need to find out what they deliberately missed, but have to put effort so that raise a Better Child for Society as they are. Why to find out any "missing aspect"? What do Parents need more than Children's Betterment?

You see, this modern society, sees Marriage only as "Agreement between Two" and not about The Whole Family and Neighbours and Society as a whole. They think like they are bounded/tied-up/imprisoned with another, but fail to see what they have to contribute for the world/society, for "prosper" of Society/World.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:32 pm There are some potential social, professional and personal advantages to be gained from believing in obvious superstition, but that does not change the fact that it is obvious superstition.

Not about Gain, but Truth. It's about reality of World. Religions may differ in many point, but agree uniquely about World/Sensual. People fail to see the "Bad" about "Life" by many Faiths - Science and others provide. Religions try to point out this "Bad" things about "World", and turn Onwards within Oneself.

As Science goes on Ignorantly finding out many machines,etc., Nothing had stopped destruction it creates. Science only destroys things by providing Knowledge and Pleasure. Nothing more. Why do Science find out curious things, if they can harm Mother Earth and Life in it? Isn't this Ignorance? Why People call it as Knowledge, if only destruction remains from such Ignorance?

Do you feel safer when obeying priests or when thinking for yourself?
One way to worship God is to study His natural creation. We study the natural creation when we do science.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:22 pm
These are simple value judgements based on the spurious assumption - tradition good, modernity bad.

Nope. First, I was into Science too as much as into Religion/Scriptures. It's by seeing the Dark side of Science, which People caught in "Goodness of Science" fail to see. There is no need of Bringing Tradition/Religion into, while looking at Science holistically.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:22 pm However, history tells us what traditional religions bring - war, torture, coercion, dictatorships and environmental degradation.

True that War, Torture, Coercion, Dictatorships. I won't deny it. But not Environmental Degradation. It is from 15th Century this Environmental Degradation started from the advent of Science. Traditions had been very cautious to not damage Environment. I think you are trying to bring "Bad Image" to Traditions which is not in History, intentionally.

Now about War, you see, Greed is there in Many Humans. And there are two tools which are Religion/Tradition and Science. A Greedy One, using these, bring Disaster by War due to his Ego (need of Power). The Destruction bought by using tool of Traditions in War, is far lesser compared to the tool of Science.

Torture and Coercion. It is used only when people fall to desires rather than following Traditions to reach "GOD". Everyone can reach GOD, regardless one is Punisher or Punished. If one fail to follow the Tradition, only then Torture and Coercion fall upon those "Fallen". But, Greed and Ego is present here too, and the one in high position of Religion misuse it. But, the Torture and Coercion misused by them, is far lesser than what now Politicians and Science doo Psychically. Physical Torture is better than Psychic Torture. The Physical Torture lead one to God, but Psychic Torture lead many to Schizophrenia and also more Ego,Greed,Wealth-running,etc.
You may ask, without these tortures can't we live? No. This Life itself is Torture. Don't seek Life. Seek God.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:33 pm Truth , good, and beauty are not in the world. Bad is relative absence of good, truth, and beauty.

Superb Belindi. Now, in your way, this Goodness and Beauty are not in the world, and it shows "World is not Goodness and Beauty or Truth, but Bad due to relative absence of Goodness and Beauty or Truth".
So, why seek world? Seek Truth. This what I try to point out many times.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:40 pm
Do you feel safer when obeying priests or when thinking for yourself?

I never hesitate to bow to any. But, if it's needed, I will also point out the Evil those Fake Priests do to themselves, and ready to face any punishments they may try to impose for that.

My secret is, I never desire life. So, ready to Embrace Death whenever it falls. No need of trying to feel safe, as don't desire living.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:40 pm One way to worship God is to study His natural creation. We study the natural creation when we do science.

Studying is very different than Desire it's Beauty. World is not Beauty, when compared to Truth. Science, only try to show how to destroy natural creation by making one to addict to Beauty, because that Beauty leads to explore/research more.

Also, Science negates God. If Science place God at First, then theories end immediately, and no need of further research.

And, then there can be never End to Worship of God, also never End to Sufferings and No Peace, when one is inclined to research of Science. Science destroys Peace, increasingly larger than the Fake Priests.

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:37 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:22 pm
These are simple value judgements based on the spurious assumption - tradition good, modernity bad.

Nope. First, I was into Science too as much as into Religion/Scriptures. It's by seeing the Dark side of Science, which People caught in "Goodness of Science" fail to see. There is no need of Bringing Tradition/Religion into, while looking at Science holistically.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:22 pm However, history tells us what traditional religions bring - war, torture, coercion, dictatorships and environmental degradation.

True that War, Torture, Coercion, Dictatorships. I won't deny it. But not Environmental Degradation. It is from 15th Century this Environmental Degradation started from the advent of Science. Traditions had been very cautious to not damage Environment. I think you are trying to bring "Bad Image" to Traditions which is not in History, intentionally.

Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 12:38 am Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Okay.
Can you mention what are those traditions?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 12:38 am Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Only those Fake Priests and Fake Kings, misused Traditions to aid Science, and Science's involvement made Nature as Humn's Expand resources.
The Early One are True, and later on those Fake one wanted more Power, Wealth, Ignoring God, and used Science along with their development

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 11:43 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 3:33 pm Truth , good, and beauty are not in the world. Bad is relative absence of good, truth, and beauty.

Superb Belindi. Now, in your way, this Goodness and Beauty are not in the world, and it shows "World is not Goodness and Beauty or Truth, but Bad due to relative absence of Goodness and Beauty or Truth".
So, why seek world? Seek Truth. This what I try to point out many times.

The world as we know it contains much suffering and injustice. God is that which we aspire to in order to make the world a better place. If you sincerely seek truth then you seek God.

Islamic scientists were encouraged to explore Allah through His creation, and that is why historically Muslims were at one time foremost scientists and philosophers.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:09 pm I venerate God in the form of Gaia, whom I understand as an emergent 'property' of the universe. Thus, She is not a Creator-God. The 4D spacetime universe that science describes so well is Her 'body', and She is its 'mind'; the mind, spirit, and soul of the universe.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:41 pm She cannot be its mind and at the same time an emergent property. Or perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by emergent property or the statement that She is its mind.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:31 pm When the universe became able to support a mind of its own, She emerged. Perhaps when life became established? I know not.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 2:16 pm What is mind in your opinion?

Questions, questions, lots of questions...

OK: "mind" is a collective term for all of the mental, or non-physical, aspects and attributes of a living thing.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:27 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:09 pm I venerate God in the form of Gaia, whom I understand as an emergent 'property' of the universe. Thus, She is not a Creator-God. The 4D spacetime universe that science describes so well is Her 'body', and She is its 'mind'; the mind, spirit, and soul of the universe.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:41 pm She cannot be its mind and at the same time an emergent property. Or perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by emergent property or the statement that She is its mind.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:31 pm When the universe became able to support a mind of its own, She emerged. Perhaps when life became established? I know not.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 2:16 pm What is mind in your opinion?

Questions, questions, lots of questions...

OK: "mind" is a collective term for all of the mental, or non-physical, aspects and attributes of a living thing.

But how could non-physical emerge from physical? I have to say that I agree with the concept of mind although I have another definition for it. Moreover, to me, mind cannot be emergent and is the fundamental entity in reality.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:09 pm I venerate God in the form of Gaia, whom I understand as an emergent 'property' of the universe. Thus, She is not a Creator-God. The 4D spacetime universe that science describes so well is Her 'body', and She is its 'mind'; the mind, spirit, and soul of the universe.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:41 pm She cannot be its mind and at the same time an emergent property. Or perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by emergent property or the statement that She is its mind.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:31 pm When the universe became able to support a mind of its own, She emerged. Perhaps when life became established? I know not.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 2:16 pm What is mind in your opinion?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:27 am "Mind" is a collective term for all of the mental, or non-physical, aspects and attributes of a living thing.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:35 am But how could non-physical emerge from physical?

We might as well ask 'how could energy 'emerge' from matter?', but simple empirical observation offers several example answers: exothermic chemical reactions and nuclear fission/fusion, if not others. Surely the truth of the matter is that we have no idea as to how the physical, or the non-physical, comes about in the first place?

In this context, I think "emerge" simply means "becomes apparent", nothing more than that. And, with this meaning in mind, it seems a lot clearer that the question itself is the problem. I think we're asking the wrong question. If we wish to pursue this line of reasoning, should we not ask, "how could something non-physical 'emerge'?"?

Bahman wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:35 am ...to me, mind cannot be emergent and is the fundamental entity in reality.

Then I offer your question, in reverse: from where does the physical 'emerge'? From the non-physical, perhaps? Is that what you're saying?

Belindi wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 7:18 am Islamic scientists were encouraged to explore Allah through His creation, and that is why historically Muslims were at one time foremost scientists and philosophers.

This is what I tried to point here.

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 1:40 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 12:38 am Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Only those Fake Priests and Fake Kings, misused Traditions to aid Science, and Science's involvement made Nature as Humn's Expand resources.
The Early One are True, and later on those Fake one wanted more Power, Wealth, Ignoring God, and used Science along with their development

They misunderstood what was meant in Quran, and used those words for hunger of Worldly Knowledge. I can quote you few Quran verses which implies to not attach to world/life - life is Illusion, if you wish to. And the Qur'an verse you talked about, can you point out in which verse it is said that "to explore Allah through his creations", so that I will point you the exact content it is meant. But Beware, I can hurt your feelings if I expose that and you are attached to World.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 7:18 am The world as we know it contains much suffering and injustice. God is that which we aspire to in order to make the world a better place. If you sincerely seek truth then you seek God.

Yes, Much Sufferings and Injustice. Do you want to make World a Better Place? It's Easy. Take Quran or Bible or Manu Dharma or any other Religious Dharma. Implement it in every nation which they want to make suit themselves for, like Afghan took Shariah. Then Sincerely seek God, as those verses are from God for Better Nation. You will attain God for sure. These are True. I can assure you. What's more you needed from World? Why kind of Injustice or Suffering you want to eradicate?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 9:55 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:09 pm I venerate God in the form of Gaia, whom I understand as an emergent 'property' of the universe. Thus, She is not a Creator-God. The 4D spacetime universe that science describes so well is Her 'body', and She is its 'mind'; the mind, spirit, and soul of the universe.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 12:41 pm She cannot be its mind and at the same time an emergent property. Or perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by emergent property or the statement that She is its mind.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 1:31 pm When the universe became able to support a mind of its own, She emerged. Perhaps when life became established? I know not.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 17th, 2023, 2:16 pm What is mind in your opinion?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:27 am "Mind" is a collective term for all of the mental, or non-physical, aspects and attributes of a living thing.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:35 am But how could non-physical emerge from physical?

We might as well ask 'how could energy 'emerge' from matter?', but simple empirical observation offers several example answers: exothermic chemical reactions and nuclear fission/fusion, if not others.

To answer your question one needs to understand what matter and energy are. To my understanding, matter is a set of minds that they interact via Quidia. What are mind and Quidia? Mind to me is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience Quadia, process the information experienced, and cause Quidia. Quidia to me is the subject of experience and causation by a mind which carries information from one mind to another one and it is a reducible substance. In this model energy is nothing but a form of Quadia.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 9:55 am Surely the truth of the matter is that we have no idea as to how the physical, or the non-physical, comes about in the first place?

Mind to me is an irreducible substance so it cannot be created or destroyed. Quidia is a reducible substance so it can be created and destroyed. Where the first Quidia comes from is however the subject of contemplation.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 9:55 am In this context, I think "emerge" simply means "becomes apparent", nothing more than that. And, with this meaning in mind, it seems a lot clearer that the question itself is the problem. I think we're asking the wrong question. If we wish to pursue this line of reasoning, should we not ask, "how could something non-physical 'emerge'?"?

Perhaps we should spend some time to agree on what physical and non-physical things are. We also need to agree on what we mean by emergent.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 9:55 am

Bahman wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 8:35 am ...to me, mind cannot be emergent and is the fundamental entity in reality.

Then I offer your question, in reverse: from where does the physical 'emerge'? From the non-physical, perhaps? Is that what you're saying?

To me, emergence is a concept that deals with a phenomenon in which a system has a set of properties that its parts don't. There are two sorts of emergence though, namely strong and weak. The properties of the system are not functions of the properties of parts in strong emergence whereas the properties of the system are functions of properties of parts in weak emergence. An example of weak emergence is a car. An example of strong emergence is consciousness. I have to say that I don't believe in strong emergence and I have an argument against it but that is a separate topic.

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 10:27 am

Belindi wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 7:18 am Islamic scientists were encouraged to explore Allah through His creation, and that is why historically Muslims were at one time foremost scientists and philosophers.

This is what I tried to point here.

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 1:40 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 12:38 am Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Only those Fake Priests and Fake Kings, misused Traditions to aid Science, and Science's involvement made Nature as Humn's Expand resources.
The Early One are True, and later on those Fake one wanted more Power, Wealth, Ignoring God, and used Science along with their development

They misunderstood what was meant in Quran, and used those words for hunger of Worldly Knowledge. I can quote you few Quran verses which implies to not attach to world/life - life is Illusion, if you wish to. And the Qur'an verse you talked about, can you point out in which verse it is said that "to explore Allah through his creations", so that I will point you the exact content it is meant. But Beware, I can hurt your feelings if I expose that and you are attached to World.

Belindi wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 7:18 am The world as we know it contains much suffering and injustice. God is that which we aspire to in order to make the world a better place. If you sincerely seek truth then you seek God.

Yes, Much Sufferings and Injustice. Do you want to make World a Better Place? It's Easy. Take Quran or Bible or Manu Dharma or any other Religious Dharma. Implement it in every nation which they want to make suit themselves for, like Afghan took Shariah. Then Sincerely seek God, as those verses are from God for Better Nation. You will attain God for sure. These are True. I can assure you. What's more you needed from World? Why kind of Injustice or Suffering you want to eradicate?

Religious scriptures are full of wisdom and love but only for those who interpret the scriptures as wisdom and love. For instance Islamic fundamentalists such as ISIS interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. Christian fundamentalists interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. There are Hindu fundamentalists who steal and kill.