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[Namelesss]

Dzung and Nameless, neither of you is a unique originator.

I think that's what I have been saying.
No 'originating, no creating', but unique Perspectives of the One Truth.

[Belindi]

Nameless wrote:

I think that's what I have been saying.
No 'originating, no creating', but unique Perspectives of the One Truth.

Is it our responsibility as beings that can have perspectives , or simply as perspectives, to seek truth and evaluate approximations to truth on behalf of the huge mass of stuff that has no perspectives?

One thing that I like about the Biblical religions is that they urge us to take responsibility.

[Namelesss]

Nameless wrote:

I think that's what I have been saying.
No 'originating, no creating', but unique Perspectives of the One Truth.

Is it our responsibility as beings that can have perspectives , or simply as perspectives, to seek truth and evaluate approximations to truth on behalf of the huge mass of stuff that has no perspectives?

All that we experience/Know is "on behalf of" Self Knowledge!
There is no point in the Universe, ever, that is not 'occupied' by a unique Conscious Perspective (Soul)!
That is how "all is Known", how We are Omniscient! Omnipresent, etc...

One thing that I like about the Biblical religions is that they urge us to take responsibility.

The problem with the vanity of assigning personal (not talking 'legal) 'responsibility' for doing as one does, is our vain propensity to also judge and punish 'others'. Torture, spankings, prison, etc...
Insanity!

In "... seek(-ing) truth and evaluate(-ing) approximations to truth", We find that Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive!
One! *__-

[jerlands]

The problem with the vanity of assigning personal (not talking 'legal) 'responsibility' for doing as one does, is our vain propensity to also judge and punish 'others'. Torture, spankings, prison, etc...
Insanity!

In "... seek(-ing) truth and evaluate(-ing) approximations to truth", We find that Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive!
One! *__-

Yes, it's insanity to punish someone for blowing up a building or polluting a riverway. Afterall, where would we be without crime?

[Namelesss]

The problem with the vanity of assigning personal (not talking 'legal) 'responsibility' for doing as one does, is our vain propensity to also judge and punish 'others'. Torture, spankings, prison, etc...
Insanity!

In "... seek(-ing) truth and evaluate(-ing) approximations to truth", We find that Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive!
One! *__-

Yes, it's insanity to punish someone for blowing up a building or polluting a riverway.

In your reality, what is 'healing'? Certainly it cannot give you the egoic jolt that vain Prideful judgment of others, and harming them can, eh?
Feed that ego!
Perhaps when you heal, so will 'others'?

Afterall, where would we be without crime?

After all, where would we be without your incessant sarcasm?
After all where would we be without your self-validating egoic judgment, Pride/Vanity?
After all, where would we be without your insanity of,punishment?
We don't know because we have been that insane for 300,000 years!
If 'punishment/torture' produced the desired results, we'd be a Utopia by now!

Please, if all you have to assault the Truth with is sarcasm, don't bother;
"All who spit at Heaven get it back in their own face!"

[jerlands]

Yes, it's insanity to punish someone for blowing up a building or polluting a riverway.

In your reality, what is 'healing'? Certainly it cannot give you the egoic jolt that vain Prideful judgment of others, and harming them can, eh?
Feed that ego!
Perhaps when you heal, so will 'others'?

In my reality to heal is to make whole.

Afterall, where would we be without crime?

After all, where would we be without your incessant sarcasm?
After all where would we be without your self-validating egoic judgment, Pride/Vanity?
After all, where would we be without your insanity of,punishment?
We don't know because we have been that insane for 300,000 years!
If 'punishment/torture' produced the desired results, we'd be a Utopia by now!

If only it were so simple and the other didn't exist.

Please, if all you have to assault the Truth with is sarcasm, don't bother;
"All who spit at Heaven get it back in their own face!"

Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works.

[Belindi]

Nameless wrote:

(Belindi)

Is it our responsibility as beings that can have perspectives , or simply as perspectives, to seek truth and evaluate approximations to truth on behalf of the huge mass of stuff that has no perspectives?

All that we experience/Know is "on behalf of" Self Knowledge!
There is no point in the Universe, ever, that is not 'occupied' by a unique Conscious Perspective (Soul)!
That is how "all is Known", how We are Omniscient! Omnipresent, etc...

If oyu are thinking of "the Universe" in terms of points then there are points of existence that can't have conscious perspectives. It's conscious perspectives that separate points of existence from each other; bits of rock put through a machine to make hard core don't know that they are separable bits of hard core.

One thing that I like about the Biblical religions is that they urge us to take responsibility.

The problem with the vanity of assigning personal (not talking 'legal) 'responsibility' for doing as one does, is our vain propensity to also judge and punish 'others'. Torture, spankings, prison, etc...
Insanity!

In "... seek(-ing) truth and evaluate(-ing) approximations to truth", We find that Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive!
One! *__-
[/quote]

It is a problem . However to take the most possible responsibility is to investigate causes of someone else's behaviour and apply as much of extenuating circumstances as one can find. At the end of that process is of course the all-knowing God who cannot be punitive because he is all-knowing.

[jerlands]

At the end of that process is of course the all-knowing God who cannot be punitive because he is all-knowing.

[Namelesss]

Nameless wrote:

(Belindi)
All that we experience/Know is "on behalf of" Self Knowledge!
There is no point in the Universe, ever, that is not 'occupied' by a unique Conscious Perspective (Soul)!
That is how "all is Known", how We are Omniscient! Omnipresent, etc...

If oyu are thinking of "the Universe" in terms of points then there are points of existence that can't have conscious perspectives.

Not so.
The entire Universe is Consciousness, so anywhere you might go, there is Consciousness.
Every point (every Planck volume, every 'Soul') is non-distant from the one beside it, and yet is a unique Perspective.
There is no empty space, no complete vacuum...
Long ago, even classical physics admitted that there was no place that they could find where one thing left off and another began!

The problem with the vanity of assigning personal (not talking 'legal) 'responsibility' for doing as one does, is our vain propensity to also judge and punish 'others'. Torture, spankings, prison, etc...
Insanity!

In "... seek(-ing) truth and evaluate(-ing) approximations to truth", We find that Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive!
One! *__-

It is a problem . However to take the most possible responsibility is to investigate causes of someone else's behaviour and apply as much of extenuating circumstances as one can find. At the end of that process is of course the all-knowing God who cannot be punitive because he is all-knowing.

'Causality/creation' is not possible.
Your response presumes 'free-will/choice', a logical, scientific and philosophical impossibility.
A desperate and vain attempt at 'control'.

Another error is your assumption that an Omni- God cannot do/be EVERYTHING! ALL inclusive!
When We are crazy and judgmental and punitive and violent and disgusting, etc... so is God!
'God' is Omni- which means One! ALL inclusive!

"God cannot know himself without me." - Meister Eckhart

"The eye by which I see God is the same as the eye by which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one and the same." - Meister Eckhart

[Belindi]

Nameless wrote:

The entire Universe is Consciousness, so anywhere you might go, there is Consciousness.
Every point (every Planck volume, every 'Soul') is non-distant from the one beside it, and yet is a unique Perspective.
There is no empty space, no complete vacuum...
Long ago, even classical physics admitted that there was no place that they could find where one thing left off and another began!

Does this apply also to universes where there is no living thing?

Regarding the second part of your reply, I don't follow you. About so-called 'Free Will' I don't believe that I could have selected otherwise than I did.

Nonetheless I feel remorse when bad choices were mine and nobody else's, and I hope to learn to do better .

[Sy Borg]

Long ago, even classical physics admitted that there was no place that they could find where one thing left off and another began!

Yes, they are all fuzzy boundaries, but not all boundaries are equally fuzzy - from the edges of clouds to the edge of a durable metal bar. For many things the fuzziness is only apparent from under a microscope.

Consider the boundaries between you and me. If you are stuck with a pin I feel no pain and vice versa. However, if we are seated very close to each other when the pins are stuck in we may feel empathetic pain and squeamishness; the separation would still be present but reduced by proximity. Thus there is ontological connection and functional separation.

[Namelesss]

Nameless wrote:

The entire Universe is Consciousness, so anywhere you might go, there is Consciousness.
Every point (every Planck volume, every 'Soul') is non-distant from the one beside it, and yet is a unique Perspective.
There is no empty space, no complete vacuum...
Long ago, even classical physics admitted that there was no place that they could find where one thing left off and another began!

Does this apply also to universes where there is no living thing?

(T)Here is only One unchanging, ALL inclusive Universe.
And nowhere did I mention 'life'. 'Life', what we imagine it to be, whatever, means nothing in this equation.
'Life' is not required for a Perspective.

It's conscious perspectives that separate points of existence from each other

It's 'thought/ego' that is the duality that gives the appearance of 'different things'.
Like holding a grid before one's face and imagining that each square is a different thing than the next.
It isn't.
It might be easier to perceive the delicate bits of Reality, to 'classify' them... but it's just a tool.

Regarding the second part of your reply, I don't follow you. About so-called 'Free Will' I don't believe that I could have selected otherwise than I did.

Then you have no 'belief' in 'free-will/choice'?

Nonetheless I feel remorse when bad choices were mine and nobody else's, and I hope to learn to do better .

It has been said that 'hope' springs eternal, but Wisdom says;
"Abandon all hope ye who enter here!"

What is the point of feeling remorse over that of which we have no control whatsoever?
I take that back, remorse can be a very bittersweet feeling, superiority of the ego...
"Not only do I judge others, I judge myself!"

[Belindi]

Nemless wrote:

'Life' is not required for a Perspective.

Perspectives pertain to living entities that have nervous systems.

It's conscious perspectives that separate points of existence from each other

It's 'thought/ego' that is the duality that gives the appearance of 'different things'.
Like holding a grid before one's face and imagining that each square is a different thing than the next.
It isn't.
It might be easier to perceive the delicate bits of Reality, to 'classify' them... but it's just a tool.

I understand. But you and I are different subjects of experience for the simple reason that nervous systems are contained within the skins of the animals that have nervous systems. True, most people are egos and perceive according to ego. If this were not so there could be no evolution of species, and ontically no change. This is a relative world of change. We don't inhabit a non-dual world, and people who fully believe that we do inhabit a non-dual world have to be supported by ego people typically for religious reasons.

What is the point of feeling remorse over that of which we have no control whatsoever?
I take that back, remorse can be a very bittersweet feeling, superiority of the ego...
"Not only do I judge others, I judge myself!"

That's true about remorse being a selfish response. Remorse that sticks at breast-beating never benefited man or beast. And also true that remorse is the mirror image of blame.

I'd answer your question "what's the point of remorse?" by calling remorse a useful feeling that highlights one's defects so one can change .Remorse can motivate. If no remorse, ineffective motivation to do better.

To shoe-horn in The Bible; I bet Jesus had wise worlds about remorse and what to do about it.

[Namelesss]

Nemless wrote:

'Life' is not required for a Perspective.

Perspectives pertain to living entities that have nervous systems.

No, they don't.
Well, in your opinion, I guess.
Nervous systems have nothing to do with it any more than the flow of a river has any effect on the electrons within the water molecules.
Materialism is a long obsolete theory.
Consciousness transcends the 'material'. The apparent 'material' has it's existence within Consciousness.
"Consciousness is the ground of all being!" - Copenhagen interpretation of QM

It's 'thought/ego' that is the duality that gives the appearance of 'different things'.
Like holding a grid before one's face and imagining that each square is a different thing than the next.
It isn't.
It might be easier to perceive the delicate bits of Reality, to 'classify' them... but it's just a tool.

I understand. But you and I are different subjects of experience for the simple reason that nervous systems are contained within the skins of the animals that have nervous systems.

Nothing to do with nervous systems.
(T)Here is only One "subject to experience"!! Self!/Reality/Truth is ALL inclusive, One! Omni-!

This is a relative world of change.

That is in appearances only. Not anything ever 'changes'; (T)Here is One unchanging all inclusive Reality! Here! Now!
The appearance of 'change' is an artifact of (One Universal Consciousness) different unique Perspectives of the One Reality, every moment!

We don't inhabit a non-dual world,

I inhabit a world of mirages, and I act accordingly.

and people who fully believe that we do

No one ever deliberately harms another person unless he hosts 'beliefs'.
Knowledge = experience!
I Know that Reality is non-dual.
You Know your hallucinations and your beliefs in them.

I'd answer your question "what's the point of remorse?" by calling remorse a useful feeling that highlights one's defects so one can change .Remorse can motivate. If no remorse, ineffective motivation to do better.

If there were such thing as 'free-will/choice', I'd tend to agree with you.
But that is a HUGE 'if'!! *__-

To shoe-horn in The Bible; I bet Jesus had wise worlds about remorse and what to do about it.

Doubtful!
Jesus' message was all about unconditional Love Here! Now!; there is no judgment/remorse in such a transcendental, unconditional state!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

[Belindi]

Nameless, within the confines of idealist (immaterialist) monism you are right. Materialism is not so much dead as that it has been relegated to co-exist with idealism (immaterialism).

Regarding free will our differences of opinion depend upon what you mean by 'free will' . I believe in determinism so I don't believe that what happened could be otherwise than it was. However the possibilities of human imagination are so creative that we do as a matter of fact feel like we have free will. It's the idea that will has a substantial correlate that's wrong.

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi


Once you have discovered that the barrier is ego consciousness you have to have faith in love despite ego consciousness: not declare that ego-consciousness is delusionary.