Philosophy Discussion Forums

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 1:36 pm It's not anti-Semitic to oppose what is happening in Gaza.
The “anti-Semitism” label is used as a bludgeon in attempts to silence opposition.

It IS anti-Semitic to be white-hot about this conflict and to not ever raise any issues whatsoever - ever - about any other conflicts, nor acknowledge that this war was started, and continued by Hamas, not the IDF.

Hamas could have returned the hostages and and stopped it all at any time, but they chose to press on and let the IDF be hammered by "useful idiots" not my term) like you and P-C - with zero care about consequences to their own people. Well, they care about the people they use as human shields as strategic objects. That's about as much as you guys care about the Sudanese and what the RSF has been doing. Zip. Zero. Nada.

This issue is almost always about virtue-signalling and anti-Semitism. Very few honestly engage the issues in a even-handed way. Anyone who worries about atrocities and injustices around the world would not start with Israel, but the UN pushes the angle that Israel is by far the worst human right abuse on Earth, while its member states cast judgement, all the while doing worse.

There are no "good guys" on the world state, no "good guys being beaten up by bad guys" as per your narrative - just self-interested parties pretending to be good. You would think centrism would be the default in philosophy. Objectivity. Logic. Reason.

The (multiple) threads about Israeli are a clear example that many people on the forum do not even attempt to be philosophical, to apply even the simplest philosophical idea - looking at both sides. What I see is a mess, rather than oppression - a favoured term of today's academia, brainwashed by university social Marxism, never questioning whether maybe - just maybe - the victims that the left pretends to cry over often play a significant role in creating their own suffering.

I do not expect a philosophical response, just another political one. Israel deserves criticism, but not more than many other countries, who get a free pass for their atrocities that Jews do not ... and it is obvious to see the reason why. Media focus, driven by journalists, editors and other writers and orators trained in universities pushing the Marxist Oppressor/Oppressed angle, who are genuinely anti-Semitic. I know the type well. Many former friends were of that ilk. I recognise all the same lines and approaches here that I heard forty years ago.

We know how hard universities pushed these biased angles because we had multiple Ivy League leaders say that calling for the genocide of Jews may be within the rules, depending on the context. Would the reaction be the same if the question was about calling for the genocide of Arabs? Obviously not. Q.E.D. Anti-Israel fanatics do not have a philosophical leg to stand on, only a political one to match their one eye.

Here is the product of cultural Marxism in universities. It's amusing how many journalists claim that the idea of universities indoctrinating students into cultural Marxism is "extreme far-right", when it's simply obvious. That's why some universities are no longer safe for Jewish students ... https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/c ... index.html

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 5:43 pm

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 1:36 pm It's not anti-Semitic to oppose what is happening in Gaza.
The “anti-Semitism” label is used as a bludgeon in attempts to silence opposition.

It IS anti-Semitic to be white-hot about this conflict and to not ever raise any issues whatsoever - ever - about any other conflicts, nor acknowledge that this war was started, and continued by Hamas, not the IDF.

Hamas could have returned the hostages and and stopped it all at any time, but they chose to press on and let the IDF be hammered by "useful idiots" not my term) like you and P-C - with zero care about consequences to their own people. Well, they care about the people they use as human shields as strategic objects. That's about as much as you guys care about the Sudanese and what the RSF has been doing. Zip. Zero. Nada.

This issue is almost always about virtue-signalling and anti-Semitism. Very few honestly engage the issues in a even-handed way. Anyone who worries about atrocities and injustices around the world would not start with Israel, but the UN pushes the angle that Israel is by far the worst human right abuse on Earth, while its member states cast judgement, all the while doing worse.

There are no "good guys" on the world state, no "good guys being beaten up by bad guys" as per your narrative - just self-interested parties pretending to be good. You would think centrism would be the default in philosophy. Objectivity. Logic. Reason.

The (multiple) threads about Israeli are a clear example that many people on the forum do not even attempt to be philosophical, to apply even the simplest philosophical idea - looking at both sides. What I see is a mess, rather than oppression - a favoured term of today's academia, brainwashed by university social Marxism, never questioning whether maybe - just maybe - the victims that the left pretends to cry over often play a significant role in creating their own suffering.

I do not expect a philosophical response, just another political one. Israel deserves criticism, but not more than many other countries, who get a free pass for their atrocities that Jews do not ... and it is obvious to see the reason why. Media focus, driven by journalists, editors and other writers and orators trained in universities pushing the Marxist Oppressor/Oppressed angle, who are genuinely anti-Semitic. I know the type well. Many former friends were of that ilk. I recognise all the same lines and approaches here that I heard forty years ago.

We know how hard universities pushed these biased angles because we had multiple Ivy League leaders say that calling for the genocide of Jews may be within the rules, depending on the context. Would the reaction be the same if the question was about calling for the genocide of Arabs? Obviously not. Q.E.D. Anti-Israel fanatics do not have a philosophical leg to stand on, only a political one to match their one eye.

Here is the product of cultural Marxism in universities. It's amusing how many journalists claim that the idea of universities indoctrinating students into cultural Marxism is "extreme far-right", when it's simply obvious. That's why some universities are no longer safe for Jewish students ... https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/c ... index.html

Whatever the bad of Hamas it's Israeli bombs that kill people in Gaza, Israeli hold-ups of supplies at the border crossings, Israeli settlers on the West Bank that kill Palestinians, and Israelis that have imprisoned four thousand five hundred Palestinians. You cannot excuse the Israeli aggressors by condemning Hamas .
It's particularly bad that Israel is misbehaving like this considering that Israel is the only real democratic outpost in the Middle East. Israel should stop its military offensive against civilians and allow aid to flow in immediately, whatever Hamas is or does.

There are indeed "good guys on the world stage"! One of them was killed by an Israeli soldier yesterday He was a voluntary aid worker. Numbered among other good guys are those who have not a lot of personal money but send donations to help the starving in Gaza. If you care to read news that is not polemical see Al Jazeera for factual reportage.

It is clear that native Palestinians are victims of former victims.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 2:18 pm The people of Israel are not responsible for the actions of their government any more than the Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas, or even the people of the US for our government's actions.

This is contrary to the basic structures and strictures of democracy. Not only is it the dictatorship of the majority, it also requires us to accept the final result of a vote, even though we might have voted the other way. The actions of our governments are *our* actions. We gave them that right, and that responsibility, when we voted them in. We are all responsible for the actions of the governments we voted into power. All of us that live in democracies, that is.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 11:39 am Let's revisit your comment - and don't pretend now that you think Israel has a right to exist. You previously said:

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 8:13 am As for seeing things from the point of view of Israel, I find their case, and their situation, difficult to understand, and impossible to justify. They were given more than half of someone else's land — by the UK/USA/UN: that part was not done by Israel — and their response to this was to take even more! Until today, when Israel controls pretty much all of Palestine.

Nowhere there do I say that Israel should not exist.

If we were having this discussion in 1946, I would argue that the proposed state of Israel is a mistake, and should not be implemented. But it was, nearly 80 years ago. Much has happened since, so much that it is no longer feasible or reasonable to consider getting rid of the state of Israel. That discussion has been and gone.

To summarise what I said about Israel and its actions: its ingratitude is what upsets me most. Given more than half of someone else's land, most reasonable people would accept the gift they had been given, and not tried to take even more, as Israel has done.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 7:21 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 11:39 am Let's revisit your comment - and don't pretend now that you think Israel has a right to exist. You previously said:

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 8:13 am As for seeing things from the point of view of Israel, I find their case, and their situation, difficult to understand, and impossible to justify. They were given more than half of someone else's land — by the UK/USA/UN: that part was not done by Israel — and their response to this was to take even more! Until today, when Israel controls pretty much all of Palestine.

Nowhere there do I say that Israel should not exist.

If we were having this discussion in 1946, I would argue that the proposed state of Israel is a mistake, and should not be implemented. But it was, nearly 80 years ago. Much has happened since, so much that it is no longer feasible or reasonable to consider getting rid of the state of Israel. That discussion has been and gone.

To summarise what I said about Israel and its actions: its ingratitude is what upsets me most. Given more than half of someone else's land, most reasonable people would accept the gift they had been given, and not tried to take even more, as Israel has done.

If Israel was not created, the Arabs would have simply outnumbered, killed off, or re-scattered the Jews there. That appears to be your solution but, since they are established, you figure they should not be killed off or re-dispersed. In fact, the Europeans had been trying to stop the Jews going there. So this is simply a battle between Jews and Arabs for Jews' right to exist in the Middle East.

Of course, the option as always there to simply let them be overrun and let nature take its course, but views on this have been too divided t let it happen.

Still, in the current context, Hamas could have helped the Palestinian peopl worked towards a to-state solution but they instead chose war and to turn the people into human shields. The people of Philippines, Bhutan and Vietnam can be grateful that their governments operate with more logic.

About the Jewish guy on the news, the one who nearly got arrested trying to cross the road; he was trying to cross the road when there was a pro Palestinian march occurring! The police saw his actions as provocative because they were. Take for example if the march was for gay pride and the counterpart [as like the Jewish chap is to the Muslims] was homophobia or some such thing, the policeman would have seen the counterpart as being provocative too – because that is provocative!

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 7:08 am

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 21st, 2024, 2:18 pm The people of Israel are not responsible for the actions of their government any more than the Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas, or even the people of the US for our government's actions.

This is contrary to the basic structures and strictures of democracy. Not only is it the dictatorship of the majority, it also requires us to accept the final result of a vote, even though we might have voted the other way. The actions of our governments are *our* actions. We gave them that right, and that responsibility, when we voted them in. We are all responsible for the actions of the governments we voted into power. All of us that live in democracies, that is.

Not in a position to discuss this at the moment but I do not believe that the US is a functioning democracy or even close. I doubt that Israel or Palestine are any better.

Not one scrap of evidence has been offered by Israel for its false claims that UNRWA allowed its staff to join the fight in October.
Their lie led to the immediate suspension of funding from 16 international sources leading the de-funding of Aid for Palestinian civilians,
Not one scrap of evidence has been offered by Israel for its false claims of baby beheadings or babies being cooked . THeir false claim wrongly recruited the support of people all over the world, yet no such thing happened.
WHilst Israel manage to bring down 800 missiles from Iran with utter precision.
Israel has not apologised for the deliberate targetting of chidren, women, medical workers, Journalists, aid workers, schools, hospitals all have which have been targetted at unprecedented rates.

ALl of this is seen as antisemitic, just saying this.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 10:00 am About the Jewish guy on the news, the one who nearly got arrested trying to cross the road; he was trying to cross the road when there was a pro Palestinian march occurring! The police saw his actions as provocative because they were. Take for example if the march was for gay pride and the counterpart [as like the Jewish chap is to the Muslims] was homophobia or some such thing, the policeman would have seen the counterpart as being provocative too – because that is provocative!

Gideon Falter was acting as an agent provokateur and the Police sargeant who arrested him, despite calls for his dismisall has now been completely exonerated.

Deliberate targeting of human shields.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 20th, 2024, 5:11 pm Like Hamas, you do not believe Israel has a right to exist.

Don't think that's quite accurate.

PC has said that Israel does have the right to defend itself against armies from "third party" nations.

So logically, to the extent that Hamas is an Iranian-sponsored guerilla force, he would I think acknowledge that Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas.

To the extent that Hamas is merely enacting the will of the Palestinians in Gaza, he sees a difference. But to that extent all the Palestinians in Gaza are complicit in Hamas' crimes...

Reality is messy and doesn't always fit our neat categories.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 5:22 pm

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 10:00 am About the Jewish guy on the news, the one who nearly got arrested trying to cross the road; he was trying to cross the road when there was a pro Palestinian march occurring! The police saw his actions as provocative because they were. Take for example if the march was for gay pride and the counterpart [as like the Jewish chap is to the Muslims] was homophobia or some such thing, the policeman would have seen the counterpart as being provocative too – because that is provocative!

Gideon Falter was acting as an agent provokateur and the Police sargeant who arrested him, despite calls for his dismisall has now been completely exonerated.

Yep it looks like he and his group were cynically determined to make him a martyr, either to the protestors responding to his deliberate provocation or the 'anti-semitic' police who were doing their job. Knowing the usual propagandists in the media would jump on it. Which they predictably did.

Such weaponisation of faux victimhood as a response to actual genocide leaves such a bad taste. Get a grip.

Gertie wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2024, 4:32 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 5:22 pm

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 10:00 am About the Jewish guy on the news, the one who nearly got arrested trying to cross the road; he was trying to cross the road when there was a pro Palestinian march occurring! The police saw his actions as provocative because they were. Take for example if the march was for gay pride and the counterpart [as like the Jewish chap is to the Muslims] was homophobia or some such thing, the policeman would have seen the counterpart as being provocative too – because that is provocative!

Gideon Falter was acting as an agent provokateur and the Police sargeant who arrested him, despite calls for his dismisall has now been completely exonerated.

Yep it looks like he and his group were cynically determined to make him a martyr, either to the protestors responding to his deliberate provocation or the 'anti-semitic' police who were doing their job. Knowing the usual propagandists in the media would jump on it. Which they predictably did.

Such weaponisation of faux victimhood as a response to actual genocide leaves such a bad taste. Get a grip.

I'm pretty sure Israel and its chums is going for he Oscar.
Meanwhile mass graves of doctors with hand tied behind their back and shot in the back emerge; but not on main stream media.

I am not an antisemite. However, this has been a six-decade long disaster for the Palestinian people whose land should never have been partitioned. And ever since the partition, the Palestinians have suffered death by a thousands cuts as Israel invades more of what is left of Palestinian territory. It has been a disaster for the Palestinians and it may well end up being a disaster for Israel, too, if/when it's backers in the West can no longer protect it. Whatever happens, the 1.8 billion in the Muslim world (and many in the West) will not forgive or forget Israel's avaricious and cruel destruction of the Palestine. It is a crime against humanity which even many Jewish people recognise as such.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2024, 6:57 am

Gertie wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2024, 4:32 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 5:22 pm

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2024, 10:00 am About the Jewish guy on the news, the one who nearly got arrested trying to cross the road; he was trying to cross the road when there was a pro Palestinian march occurring! The police saw his actions as provocative because they were. Take for example if the march was for gay pride and the counterpart [as like the Jewish chap is to the Muslims] was homophobia or some such thing, the policeman would have seen the counterpart as being provocative too – because that is provocative!

Gideon Falter was acting as an agent provokateur and the Police sargeant who arrested him, despite calls for his dismisall has now been completely exonerated.

Yep it looks like he and his group were cynically determined to make him a martyr, either to the protestors responding to his deliberate provocation or the 'anti-semitic' police who were doing their job. Knowing the usual propagandists in the media would jump on it. Which they predictably did.

Such weaponisation of faux victimhood as a response to actual genocide leaves such a bad taste. Get a grip.

I'm pretty sure Israel and its chums is going for he Oscar.
Meanwhile mass graves of doctors with hand tied behind their back and shot in the back emerge; but not on main stream media.

I saw that in today's Guardian to be fair, Channel 4 news are usually good too.

Just horrendous, it's every **** day. I wonder if Sunak will be as concerned as he is about someone having to wait a minute before they cross the road.