Philosophy Discussion Forums

Belindi:

But scholars cannot easily say exactly which teachings pertain to the Jesus of history.

Thank you. There is no synthesis without difference. By ignoring the differences we get further away from the teachings of Jesus in favor of the synthesis that is Christianity. Greater weight is given to Paul and John, and Jesus the man, Jesus the teacher, Jesus the Rabbi, Jesus the messiah of the Jews becomes a symbol. The words of Jesus drowned out by the ‘Word’, the ‘Logos’ with all its Greek meaning. Against the cautions in Proverbs regarding wisdom, with John logos becomes wisdom and a man becomes God.

Fooloso4 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 9:22 am Belindi:

But scholars cannot easily say exactly which teachings pertain to the Jesus of history.

Thank you. There is no synthesis without difference. By ignoring the differences we get further away from the teachings of Jesus in favor of the synthesis that is Christianity. Greater weight is given to Paul and John, and Jesus the man, Jesus the teacher, Jesus the Rabbi, Jesus the messiah of the Jews becomes a symbol. The words of Jesus drowned out by the ‘Word’, the ‘Logos’ with all its Greek meaning.

Wiki wrote:Mark was written in Greek, for a gentile audience (that they were gentiles is shown by the author's need to explain Jewish traditions and translate Aramaic terms) of Greek-speaking Christians: Rome (Mark uses a number of Latin terms), Galilee, Antioch (third-largest city in the Roman Empire, located in northern Syria), and southern Syria have all been offered as alternative places of authorship.

Fooloso4 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 9:22 am Against the cautions in Proverbs regarding wisdom, with John logos becomes wisdom and a man becomes God.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.~ Proverbs 1:7

For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.~ Proverbs 2:6

Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.~ Proverbs 3:13-18

Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.~ Proverbs 4:5-9

The wise in heart accept commands, but a chattering fool comes to ruin.~ Proverbs 10:8

A person of understanding delights in wisdom.~ Proverbs 10:23

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.~ Proverbs 11:2

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.~ Proverbs 12:15

Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.~ Proverbs 13:10

The wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down. Whoever fears the LORD walks uprightly, but those who despise him are devious in their ways.~ Proverbs 14:1-2

Whoever is patient has great understanding, but one who is quick-tempered displays folly.~ Proverbs 14:29

A scoffer does not love one who reproves him, He will not go to the wise. A joyful heart makes a cheerful face, But when the heart is sad, the spirit is broken.~ Proverbs 15:12-13

Wisdom’s instruction is to fear the Lord, and humility comes before honor.~ Proverbs 15:33

How much better to get wisdom than gold, to get insight rather than silver!~ Proverbs 16:16

The one who has knowledge uses words with restraint, and whoever has understanding is even-tempered. Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.~ Proverbs 17:27-28

An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.~ Proverbs 18:15

The one who gets wisdom loves life; the one who cherishes understanding will soon prosper.~ Proverbs 19:8

Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.~ Proverbs 19:20

Incline your ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply your heart to my knowledge, for it will be pleasant if you keep them within you, if all of them are ready on your lips. That your trust may be in the Lord, I have made them known to you today, even to you.~ Proverbs 22:17-19

By wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is established; by knowledge the rooms are filled with all precious and pleasant riches. A wise man is full of strength, and a man of knowledge enhances his might, for by wise guidance you can wage your war, and in abundance of counselors there is victory. Wisdom is too high for a fool; in the gate he does not open his mouth.~ Proverbs 24:3-7

Fools give full vent to their rage, but the wise bring calm in the end.~ Proverbs 29:11

Jerlands, the wisdom tradition is about developing character. The wisdom books in The Bible are as much use to atheists as to believers.
Nice selection thanks.

Belindi:

Jerlands, the wisdom tradition is about developing character. The wisdom books in The Bible are as much use to atheists as to believers.
Nice selection thanks.

Yes, there are other differences as well:

The difference between female personification in Proverbs and male incarnation in the form of Jesus Christ in John.

The Greek term for wisdom is sophia not logos.

We do not know what John meant by ‘Logos’ but one of its primary meaning is related to reason and a rational order. Stoic philosophers understood it to be an active rational and spiritual principle. But such a notion stands in stark contrast to the OT God characterized by will not rationality. Philo’s use of the term ‘logos’ represents his attempted synthesis of Plato and Judaism, but there is disagreement as to whether John was influenced by Philo.

John refers to the opening of Genesis, but ‘to say’ (Hebrew ‘amar’), as in “God said” is a quite ordinary word, although when said by God it obviously not an ordinary utterance. Logos is also used in the sense of speech, but not any act of speaking.

Proverbs says:

“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was constantly[at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. ( 8:22-31)

Here wisdom is present as a witness.

But also:

By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the watery depths were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew. (3:19)

God’s wisdom, understanding, and knowledge is not the same as the wisdom God brought forth. Wouldn’t he need to be wise in order to bring it forth?

Perhaps these sayings were collected and added separately. Perhaps they reflect different notions of wisdom. Perhaps they both are related to the rebuke of Job - don’t question God, you are not wise, you were not there when I created the world. And here we see the contrast with Greek wisdom - knowledge of the whole, mind minding Mind.

How much if any of this informs John’s use of the term ‘logos’ I cannot say, but there does seem to be a presumption of knowledge of the whole from beginning to end, a knowledge of God’s plan, of man’s fate.

Fooloso4 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 6:54 pm

“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was constantly[at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. ( 8:22-31)

“O noble ones who are before the Lord of the universe (“the All”), 69 behold, I have

come before you. Respect me in accordance with what you know. I am he whom

the Unique Lord made before two things (“duality”) had yet come into being in this

land by his sending forth his unique eye when he was alone, by the going forth from

his mouth … when he put Hu (“Logos”) upon his mouth.

1 am indeed the son of Him who gave birth to the universe (“the All”), who was

born before his mother yet existed. I am the protection of that which the Unique

Lord has ordained. I am he who caused the Ennead to live … I have seated myself,

O bulls of heaven, in this my great dignity as Lord of kas, heir of Re-Atum.

I have come that I might take my seat and that I might receive my dignity, for to me

belonged the universe before you gods had yet come into being. Descend, you who

have come in the end. I am Heka.”

Fooloso4 wrote:

Perhaps these sayings were collected and added separately. Perhaps they reflect different notions of wisdom. Perhaps they both are related to the rebuke of Job - don’t question God, you are not wise, you were not there when I created the world. And here we see the contrast with Greek wisdom - knowledge of the whole, mind minding Mind.

The selection of sayings that Jerland quoted emphasised humility. The voice from the whirlwind that spoke to Job emphasised humility. I have never seen these dust devil little whirlwinds of the desert but I imagine that they are an image of the complexity of the deterministic world. We can't hope to untangle all the chaos of connections between events however God is supposed to be all-knowing. God is also necessity by which I mean that determinism is absolute and therefore eternal.No consolation here for poor Job!

Jerland, I did not understand that last thing you quoted. Was it referring to the cosmic Christ?

Belindi wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 9:27 pm Jerland, I did not understand that last thing you quoted. Was it referring to the cosmic Christ?

It's titled Spell 261 (Wallis Budge,) Part of the Coffin Texts of the Old Kingdom. It refers to Heka (magic, wisdom, understanding.)

Jerlands,regarding coffin texts:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Coffin-Texts

But why did you post that? What thesis does it support and how?

Belindi wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 6:22 am Jerlands,regarding coffin texts:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Coffin-Texts

But why did you post that? What thesis does it support and how?

Do you see the same? It is the same. That's what Heka is, Wisdom.
It's not unknown. People learn and soon it's no longer just in the mind but becomes active.
The story of Adam and Eve, the first people to meet God. Adamah and Ḥawwāh

Belindi:

But why did you post that? What thesis does it support and how?

Jerlands prefers magical thinking to rational thought. It needs no support, its magic.

Fooloso4 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 8:39 am Belindi:

But why did you post that? What thesis does it support and how?

Jerlands prefers magical thinking to rational thought. It needs no support, its magic.

When you understand magic then you might have better understanding of rational and support.

The word magic is derived from magos - learned from a priestly cast.

Fooloso4 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 9:22 am The words of Jesus drowned out by the ‘Word’, the ‘Logos’ with all its Greek meaning. Against the cautions in Proverbs regarding wisdom, with John logos becomes wisdom and a man becomes God.

John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 2:56 am

dzung wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2018, 6:52 am
Can you please elaborate further or your starting point for that perception?

I do not understand your question; the 'starting point for a perception'?
I can elaborate the meaning, as I see it, but the 'starting point'?
There was some 'train of thought', some immediate intuition, some experience/Knowledge, much (original) research and much simple paying of attention/Mindfulness...

Are you on yourself or following any thinkers?

The only 'thinker' that I 'follow', is me!
If I do offer the words of another, they are always attributed.
Ten people throughout history can simultaneously perceive a particular thought, none 'invented/created/originated' it, but there seem to be some Perspectives that are a bit more... 'original' (for lack of a better word) than the common fare, what the rabble might call 'creative' and 'creative genius' (if that is what they are told to think)... *__-

OK so if I got you right, your thoughts are original and not similar to any previously known notion. Is it not? So more than ever we need a starting point that is commonly known either to most ordinary people or researchers but publicly accessible. On the other hand if you have done lots of original researches then you can share as a "starting point"?

dzung wrote: ↑March 28th, 2018, 12:57 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 2:56 am
I do not understand your question; the 'starting point for a perception'?
I can elaborate the meaning, as I see it, but the 'starting point'?
There was some 'train of thought', some immediate intuition, some experience/Knowledge, much (original) research and much simple paying of attention/Mindfulness...


The only 'thinker' that I 'follow', is me!
If I do offer the words of another, they are always attributed.
Ten people throughout history can simultaneously perceive a particular thought, none 'invented/created/originated' it, but there seem to be some Perspectives that are a bit more... 'original' (for lack of a better word) than the common fare, what the rabble might call 'creative' and 'creative genius' (if that is what they are told to think)... *__-

OK so if I got you right, your thoughts are original and not similar to any previously known notion. Is it not?

As I do not 'originate' thought, I would rather use the term 'unique'.
We all have (are) unique Perspectives. Some a bit more... 'unique' than others.
Okay?

So more than ever we need a starting point that is commonly known either to most ordinary people or researchers but publicly accessible.

We do, it's called 'language'.
(I have no 'beginning', no 'starting point'.)
When I use words that mean different things from the common, I usually clarify my intended meanings.

On the other hand if you have done lots of original researches then you can share as a "starting point"?

Many decades of 'original research'.
You make the 'starting point' in the discussion by asking me a question (like the Magic 8-Ball).
Ask me something specific (that I actually might have said) to elucidate on.

Dzung and Nameless, neither of you is a unique originator. Each of you is a unique synthesiser. You make patchwork quilts like everybody else. If you are artists the patches that you use may be unusual and eccentric bits of information and your syntheses too are unusual and arresting. If you make works of art your syntheses change others' ideas. Moreover if your works are beautiful they will be true in proportion as they are beautiful and vice versa.

Each of you interprets The Bible. If either of you publishes your unique conceptual synthesis and it's beautiful you will be influential. People love truth and if your work is beautiful, i.e. reasoned and balanced ,even if not very artful it will be true pari passu.