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Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:20 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:00 pmAgain: there is ZERO known reason to believe that qualia has to do with nervous systems.
You cannot seriously believe that the pain you feel when you step barefoot on a Lego brick has nothing to do with your nervous system, or that tummyaches, headaches and toothaches have nothing to do with nervous systems.
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:00 pmAnd the quotes you picked are talking about "subjects" and "mental states" so already distorting the hard problem with a material vs mental dualism. It's also ridiculous to just start with asking why physical processes generate experience - there is zero reason to believe that it's being generated.
The real hard problem is simply this: why does qualia go with matter at all?
Are you sorta psychophysical parallelist?

Anyway, what kind of things do you think are the bearers of qualia—if not material objects or processes?
It's basically impossible to describe nondualism in a dualistic language like English (or more like any language), and use concepts from the totally dualistic Western philosophy. But I' can try:

Matter IS the qualia. You are conceiving two things or concepts or happenings, but they are one and the same. There is not-two, and there isn't a singular substance either as in monism.

In other words the experience of pain you feel probably indeed usually occurs in heads, but it may occur elsewhere in the universe too (where same or similar electromagnetic fields or whetever the material structure is, occur).

The entire material universe IS "experience". The "two" are one and the same.

So ultimately consciousness in the most fundamental sense isn't "yours", but more like you happen in consciousness. You are the infinite consciousness which is also the material world.

In other words, everyone since Plato and especially since Descartes is quite insane. I started out like that too.

You may ask well what is the experience of a rock then, it's probably just some random mess, maybe some chaotic flashef of light and dark or whatever, nothing humanly recognizeable.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pm
by Sculptor1
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:00 pm

I'm sorry, but what was your non-materialistic solution to the hard problem of qualia again?
Qualia don't magically pop into existence out of nothing, do they?
The problem of qualia was resolved 3-5 thousand years ago by Eastern nondualism.
You probably haven't debated a nondualist before so you may not realize that materialists are in a 30-move checkmate from the start.
It's just a word fro which nothing is offered in empirical support.
It has not solved anything, being nothing more than a proposition.
It is not antithetical to materialism.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 12:47 pm
by Sculptor1
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:20 pm

You cannot seriously believe that the pain you feel when you step barefoot on a Lego brick has nothing to do with your nervous system, or that tummyaches, headaches and toothaches have nothing to do with nervous systems.



Are you sorta psychophysical parallelist?

Anyway, what kind of things do you think are the bearers of qualia—if not material objects or processes?
It's basically impossible to describe nondualism in a dualistic language like English (or more like any language), and use concepts from the totally dualistic Western philosophy. But I' can try:
In other words its true but I can't tel you why.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 1:03 pm
by Atla
Sculptor1 wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:47 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pm
It's basically impossible to describe nondualism in a dualistic language like English (or more like any language), and use concepts from the totally dualistic Western philosophy. But I' can try:
In other words its true but I can't tel you why.
Really? Deleting the following attempt at an explanation?

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 2:45 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pmIt's basically impossible to describe nondualism in a dualistic language like English (or more like any language), and use concepts from the totally dualistic Western philosophy. But I' can try:

Matter IS the qualia. You are conceiving two things or concepts or happenings, but they are one and the same. There is not-two, and there isn't a singular substance either as in monism.
In other words the experience of pain you feel probably indeed usually occurs in heads, but it may occur elsewhere in the universe too (where same or similar electromagnetic fields or whetever the material structure is, occur).
The entire material universe IS "experience". The "two" are one and the same.
So ultimately consciousness in the most fundamental sense isn't "yours", but more like you happen in consciousness. You are the infinite consciousness which is also the material world.
In other words, everyone since Plato and especially since Descartes is quite insane. I started out like that too.
There's a relevant distinction between being experience(s) (being qualia) and having experience(s) (having qualia). You explicitly write that "matter is the qualia" and "the entire material universe is 'experience'." [Why the brackets? Is "experience" different from experience?] So your "Eastern nondualism" seems to be an idealistic/phenomenalistic monism, according to which "apart from the experiences of subjects there is nothing, nothing, nothing, bare nothingness." (A. N. Whitehead)

Is this what you believe?

Anyway, what about the subjects of experiences? According to the Buddhist anatman (non-self) doctrine, there are no substantial subjects or selves. When you write that "…more like you happen in consciousness", it sounds as if you accept this doctrine—which happens to correspond to Hume's bundle theory, according to which a subject/self/ego/person is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed each other with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement."

Antisubstantialist (pure-event/-process) ontology is typical of Eastern metaphysics: Subjects of experience aren't distinct substances or substrates of experience, because they are themselves nothing over and above complexes of (causally interdependent) experiential events/processes. And then we end up with a world consisting of nothing but mental/experiential "ideas" (and systems thereof), i.e. with Berkeley's idealistic world minus substantial subjects.

Note that Berkeley rejected the ontological reduction of mental/experiential subjects to nonsubstantial mental/experiential items! He did not believe that a subject is "only a system of floating ideas, without any substance to support them."

(Philonus:) "How often must I repeat, that I know or am conscious of my own being; and that I myself am not my ideas, but somewhat else, a thinking active principle that perceives, knows, wills, and operates about ideas. I know that I, one and the same self, perceive both colours and sounds: that a colour cannot perceive a sound, nor a sound a colour: That I am therefore one individual principle, distinct from colour and sound; and, for the same reason, from all other sensible things and inert ideas."

(Berkeley, George. Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonus, Third Dialogue. 1713.)

I reject Berkeley's idealism/immaterialism, but I fully agree with him on this point: Where there is experience there must be a distinct subject of experience that is itself a nonexperience, because experiences cannot experience themselves or any other experiences. The Buddhist non-self doctrine is false, because you cannot coherently have items of mentality without distinct subjects of mentality:

"To suppose that an item of mentality could occur without a subject of mentality would be as absurd as supposing that there could be an instance of motion without something that moves, or an instance of smiling without something that smiles."

(Foster, John. "Subjects of Mentality." In After Physicalism, edited by Benedikt Paul Göcke, 72-103. Notre Dame, IN: University of Notre Dame Press, 2012. p. 73) [Foster is a Berkeleyan idealist.]

This point can be generalized and directed at pure-event/pure-process ontology as a whole: The very concept of a "pure", "free", or "absolute" event/process lacking a substantial substrate (object/subject) is not coherently comprehensible due to its postulation of e.g. "pure movings" without something moving/moved.

"[T]he Buddhist tradition introduces a new and unique way of talking about human experience by avoiding the metaphysical pitfalls of reification."

Mind in Indian Buddhist Philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind ... -buddhism/

No, it doesn't really avoid "the metaphysical pitfalls of reification", since it reifies or "hypostatizes" dynamic attributes (properties/qualities) expressed by dynamic verbs such as "to move", "to go", "to flow". Pure events/processes are nothing but occurrences of dynamic attributes, with these becoming the new things or substances in pure-event/pure-process ontology. But its world is an impossible world, because there cannot "be an instance of motion without something that moves, or an instance of smiling without something that smiles." For movings and smilings, flowings and walkings cannot have an independent existence like substances. A world consisting of nothing but subjectless/objectless events/processes is ontologically unintelligible.
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pmYou may ask well what is the experience of a rock then, it's probably just some random mess, maybe some chaotic flashef of light and dark or whatever, nothing humanly recognizeable.
But even to say that rocks experience "chaotic flashes of light and dark or whatever" is to say that they are capable of conscious vision, that they see things through undergoing or "enjoying" visual appearances/impressions of them. But how can an eyeless&nerveless&brainless thing such as a rock possibly receive&process any optical signals and turn them into subjective color-impressions?

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 2:50 pm
by Consul
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 2:45 pm"[T]he Buddhist tradition introduces a new and unique way of talking about human experience by avoiding the metaphysical pitfalls of reification."

Mind in Indian Buddhist Philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind ... -buddhism/

No, it doesn't really avoid "the metaphysical pitfalls of reification", since it reifies or "hypostatizes" dynamic attributes (properties/qualities) expressed by dynamic verbs such as "to move", "to go", "to flow". Pure events/processes are nothing but occurrences of dynamic attributes, with these becoming the new things or substances in pure-event/pure-process ontology. But its world is an impossible world, because there cannot "be an instance of motion without something that moves, or an instance of smiling without something that smiles." For movings and smilings, flowings and walkings cannot have an independent existence like substances. A world consisting of nothing but subjectless/objectless events/processes is ontologically unintelligible.
This is particularly true of mental occurrences: experiencings (sensings, feelings, imaginings, thinkings).

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 3:05 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 2:45 pmSo your "Eastern nondualism" seems to be an idealistic/phenomenalistic monism, according to which "apart from the experiences of subjects there is nothing, nothing, nothing, bare nothingness." (A. N. Whitehead)

Is this what you believe?
No, it's not idealistic, not really a monism, it has no subjects, and I can't make sense of this talk about nothingness.

And it's not a belief anymore than calling the Earth round is a belief. Dualistic thinking is the belief system, and it's unsupported by any evidence (and directly contradicted by QM, which is why so many of its founders turned to Eastern philosophy); the burden of proof is on the dualistic thinkers to justify their additional assumption about the nature of reality.

Let's call it quits. As I mentioned a few pages earlier, it's usually not possible to understand nondualism before unlearning crazy ideas like: dualism, substance theory, thing-ness, subject/object dichotomy, emergence, fundamental separateness, separate I. Because before that, you will forever misinterpret the nondual message within the framework of dualistic thinking. It's just how it goes almost every time.

Thanks for the conversation.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 3:44 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 3:05 pmNo, it's not idealistic, not really a monism, it has no subjects, and I can't make sense of this talk about nothingness.

And it's not a belief anymore than calling the Earth round is a belief. Dualistic thinking is the belief system, and it's unsupported by any evidence (and directly contradicted by QM, which is why so many of its founders turned to Eastern philosophy); the burden of proof is on the dualistic thinkers to justify their additional assumption about the nature of reality.

Let's call it quits. As I mentioned a few pages earlier, it's usually not possible to understand nondualism before unlearning crazy ideas like: dualism, substance theory, thing-ness, subject/object dichotomy, emergence, fundamental separateness, separate I. Because before that, you will forever misinterpret the nondual message within the framework of dualistic thinking. It's just how it goes almost every time.
It would be helpful if you referred me to a philosopher or philosophical text which you think represents or describes your worldview most clearly and accurately!

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 4:01 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 3:44 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 3:05 pmNo, it's not idealistic, not really a monism, it has no subjects, and I can't make sense of this talk about nothingness.

And it's not a belief anymore than calling the Earth round is a belief. Dualistic thinking is the belief system, and it's unsupported by any evidence (and directly contradicted by QM, which is why so many of its founders turned to Eastern philosophy); the burden of proof is on the dualistic thinkers to justify their additional assumption about the nature of reality.

Let's call it quits. As I mentioned a few pages earlier, it's usually not possible to understand nondualism before unlearning crazy ideas like: dualism, substance theory, thing-ness, subject/object dichotomy, emergence, fundamental separateness, separate I. Because before that, you will forever misinterpret the nondual message within the framework of dualistic thinking. It's just how it goes almost every time.
It would be helpful if you referred me to a philosopher or philosophical text which you think represents or describes your worldview most clearly and accurately!
Probably if you mix Zen Buddhism and the non-monistic interpretation of Advaita Vedanta, you get closest.
Honestly? I think the fastest approach is to watch Alan Watts videos, haven't read him though. By and large he gets it, only makes some minor mistakes and is slightly outdated. Can take a few months or years to really get what he's saying though.

I haven't really read much of any philosophy actually, Eastern nondualism was forced on me as the only viable worldview* after I assimilited all major scientific discoveries and unified them in my mind. I only discovered later that the basics of this worldview are actually a thing for like the other half of humanity.

(*unless the world works by magic or is otherwise insane, which I don't believe in)

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 4:20 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:01 pm
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 3:44 pm It would be helpful if you referred me to a philosopher or philosophical text which you think represents or describes your worldview most clearly and accurately!
Probably if you mix Zen Buddhism and the non-monistic interpretation of Advaita Vedanta, you get closest.
Thanks!
But how can a philosophy be both non-dualistic and non-monistic?
(Of course, if logical consistency doesn't matter, anything is possible.)

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 4:37 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:20 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:01 pm Probably if you mix Zen Buddhism and the non-monistic interpretation of Advaita Vedanta, you get closest.
Thanks!
But how can a philosophy be both non-dualistic and non-monistic?
(Of course, if logical consistency doesn't matter, anything is possible.)
Both Western dualism and Western monism can be seen as dualistic from an Eastern non-dualism perspective.

Eastern non-dualism is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero.

But still, within the Eastern framework, when it comes to Advaita for example, there may be monist and non-monist versions. Here monist more like means that the Absolute, the Brahman has an actual nature, it's kind of one big being that plays hide and seek with itself, which is the eternal drama; and we can feel what it's like to be the Brahman and all that nonsense. And the non-monist version is more like that the Absolute has no such nature, which is more in line with Zen Buddhism.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 4:46 pm
by Consul
Doing some googling, I just came upon the book "Nonduality: In Buddhism and Beyond" by David Loy, which seems to be a good introduction and might interest you too (if you haven't read it already).

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 4:53 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:37 pmEastern non-dualism is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero.
This sort of metaphysics happily violates the law of non-contradiction, doesn't it?
But when logic leaves the room irrationality and obscurity enter it.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 5:04 pm
by Consul
Sculptor1 wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:47 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 12:46 pm It's basically impossible to describe nondualism in a dualistic language like English (or more like any language), and use concepts from the totally dualistic Western philosophy. But I' can try:…
In other words its true but I can't tel you why.
Here's someone who was able to write a book on nondualism "in a dualistic language like English": viewtopic.php?p=332058#p332058

It's not true that Western philosophy is "totally dualistic", since it contains monisms as well. However, there are different types of monism (and dualism):

"There are many monisms. What they share is that they attribute oneness. Where they differ is in what they target and how they count.…"

Monism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/monism/

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 9th, 2019, 5:11 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:53 pm
Atla wrote: June 9th, 2019, 4:37 pmEastern non-dualism is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero.
This sort of metaphysics happily violates the law of non-contradiction, doesn't it?
But when logic leaves the room irrationality and obscurity enter it.
No, it doesn't. I guess you could say from a Western perspective that Eastern nondualism is basically "monistic" or looks "monistic", however it also has no actual separations, no divisions.

Here is the problem: when you make the statement that "all is one" or "all is oneness" or "all is one substance", you are creating a division without realizing. You made the "all" into a thing, objectified it.

That's one of the subtle pitfalls of dualistic thinking. That's why in non-dual thinking, it is also said that things are not-one. In other words how you think now is irrational.