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Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 4:47 pm
by Consul
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:54 am
What's fascinating is that you and others care so very passionately about Palestinians but you obviously couldn't care what happens to the Uyghurs in China. I've not heard a peep about them. No one cares about the poor old Uyghurs, though, do they?
For some reason, people think Palestinians are ultra-important but they see Uyghurs as worthless, yet the latter has been treated more harshly. Why is that? Maybe it's hard to jump on a bandwagon against the Chinese because they defend themselves, whereas the west is an easy target because it self-flagellates, naive to the blatant and cynical hypocrisy of the nations who judge it.
This is typical of the Woke Left's double standards. They see themselves as a movement for the liberation of the oppressed (people of color), but they are being very myopic. For example, when have we seen woke
"Free Western Sahara!" demonstrations in Europe, America, or Australia?
See:
Polisario Front
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 4:55 pm
by Consul
Other current examples:
* The expulsion of Afghans from Pakistan:
https://www.ft.com/content/827815dd-3d5 ... 3f70fdca2d
* The expulsion of Armenians by Azerbaijan:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/2 ... rmenian-pm
The Woke Left couldn't care less, could it?
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 5:06 pm
by Consul
Consul wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 4:47 pm
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:54 am
What's fascinating is that you and others care so very passionately about Palestinians but you obviously couldn't care what happens to the Uyghurs in China. I've not heard a peep about them. No one cares about the poor old Uyghurs, though, do they?
If the Chinese oppressors were "Whiteys" or "Westies", the Wokies would already have made lots of "Free the Uyghurs!" flags.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 7:11 pm
by Sy Borg
Consul wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:58 pm
Consul wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:48 pm
If you think the unintentional killing of civilians—as a highly regrettable yet hardly avoidable "price of war", especially in the hellish situation of urban warfare—is never justifiable, then no war is ever justifiable.
And, again, let's not forget that Hamas is ultimately responsible for all Palestinian civilians unintentionally killed by the IDF in their fight against Hamas!
If Hitler had built his Führerbunker under a hospital, would we regard the bombing of it by the Allies as an inexcusable war crime?
Apologists for Hamas seem to think that Israel would declare war on a hospital full of innocents. That is how weird the propaganda has become. It's obvious what Hamas has been using as shields. Also, some discarded Hamas uniforms were found, suggesting that fighters are posing as civilians.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 9:19 pm
by Consul
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:51 pm
There's strong feminist support for Palestine too. Where were these feminist protesters while Arab women were being oppressed? Why weren't they marching in the streets about that?
"The ideological discourse of the identitarian left has indeed produced numerous cases of a cognitive dissonance. For example, for the sake of cultural tolerance of the non-Western “others,” they could see no problem in denying gender equality and emancipation for Muslim women, while simultaneously advocating the same rights for their Euro-American sisters. As applied to real life, such “tolerant” attitude has in fact cultivated the most hideous aspects of patriarchic culture."
(Znamenski, Andrei. Socialism as a Secular Creed: A Modern Global History. Lanham, MD: Lexington, 2021. p. 370)
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 15th, 2023, 9:34 pm
by Consul
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 7:11 pmApologists for Hamas seem to think that Israel would declare war on a hospital full of innocents. That is how weird the propaganda has become. It's obvious what Hamas has been using as shields. Also, some discarded Hamas uniforms were found, suggesting that fighters are posing as civilians.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 16th, 2023, 5:00 am
by popeye1945
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just part of a larger picture of shifting global power, from Western colonialism with America as its vanguard as the unipolar superpower, carrying on Empire from the old British Empire in a somewhat altered form. America and the West don't wish to give up their Unipower dominance. There has been a global awakening of the subjugated and brutalized nations of the world. After World War one, the shift of the power of the British Empire to that of the growing American Empire began and was consummated with America profiting greatly from the second world war. America and the West in general have been rather brutal masters. The new global movement of the BRICS is an attempt to create a better world, a multipolar world, a more humane world. The bombing of civilians in Gaza, a genocide stark in its barbarity reveals the true nature of the West and the American Empire. Israeli is an American outpost in the oil-rich East and a colonial power the West created.
Where the Wests historical dominance of much of the world was maintained through blatant violence, and where not overt then covert in the form of economic warfare, it has ravaged much of the world. America has been making economic warfare on Cuba for over sixty years now. The United Nations voted that this American blockade of Cuba should cease, and of the entire United Nations, only two voted against this bill, America and Israel. America, as a metaphor you might say, for a global crime family, with less moral fiber than the Mafia. In all the years of threatening and abusing other countries with it military might and sum eight hundred military bases surrounding and intimidating in all parts of the East. The East was careful, patient, and prepared over many years, a new day dawned, and the sun rises in the East.
.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 16th, 2023, 5:47 am
by Sy Borg
I'm sure that countries feeing from the US hegemony will be treated so much more kindly and fairly by China and Russia.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 16th, 2023, 9:20 am
by Pattern-chaser
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:51 pm
There's strong feminist support for Palestine too. Where were these feminist protesters while Arab women were being oppressed? Why weren't they marching in the streets about that?
Failure to
declare support for worthy-cause-B does not demean, detract from, or diminish, the value of support for worthy-cause-A.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 16th, 2023, 11:34 am
by Sy Borg
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 9:20 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:51 pm
There's strong feminist support for Palestine too. Where were these feminist protesters while Arab women were being oppressed? Why weren't they marching in the streets about that?
Failure to declare support for worthy-cause-B does not demean, detract from, or diminish, the value of support for worthy-cause-A.
What it shows is they didn't care about the repression of Arab women. If they did they would have been out on the streets. They care about a hospital under siege but not about the use of the hospital as a military base. Do they think that, if attacked, Israel declares war on hospitals? Why is there no criticism by the left of Hamas's war crime of using the ill and vulnerable as human shields as cover? It's this kind of hypocrisy that has driven me from the left.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 16th, 2023, 2:23 pm
by Consul
popeye1945 wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 5:00 am
…The new global movement of the BRICS is an attempt to create a better world, a multipolar world, a more humane world. The bombing of civilians in Gaza, a genocide stark in its barbarity reveals the true nature of the West and the American Empire. Israeli is an American outpost in the oil-rich East and a colonial power the West created.
Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, and all the other militant Islamist organizations or governments (e.g. Iran) will surely help us "to create a better world", "a more humane world".
You seem to love conspiracy theories! Actually, the Israelis have not been committing any genocide, and the targets of their bombings aren't innocent civilians
but the personnel and infrastructure of Hamas. Unfortunately, given the urban-warfare situation and Hamas' deeply inhumane human-shield tactics, the IDF cannot avoid civilian casualities,
unless it remains passive and reprieves Hamas. However, it has the right
not to do so!
Hamas itself neither regrets nor tries to avoid the killing of innocent Palestinians! They are prepared to sacrifice their fellow Palestinians on the altar of the war
they began!
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 17th, 2023, 7:57 am
by Stoppelmann
Consul wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 2:23 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 5:00 am
…The new global movement of the BRICS is an attempt to create a better world, a multipolar world, a more humane world. The bombing of civilians in Gaza, a genocide stark in its barbarity reveals the true nature of the West and the American Empire. Israeli is an American outpost in the oil-rich East and a colonial power the West created.
Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, and all the other militant Islamist organizations or governments (e.g. Iran) will surely help us "to create a better world", "a more humane world".
You seem to love conspiracy theories! Actually, the Israelis have not been committing any genocide, and the targets of their bombings aren't innocent civilians but the personnel and infrastructure of Hamas. Unfortunately, given the urban-warfare situation and Hamas' deeply inhumane human-shield tactics, the IDF cannot avoid civilian casualities, unless it remains passive and reprieves Hamas. However, it has the right not to do so!
Hamas itself neither regrets nor tries to avoid the killing of innocent Palestinians! They are prepared to sacrifice their fellow Palestinians on the altar of the war they began!
You are really part of the problem if you associate BRICS with Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, and all the other militant Islamist organizations.
popeye1945 clearly said that "The new global movement of the BRICS is an attempt to create a better world," which I disagree with, because it is the attempt at creating a new world order, in which America loses its dominance, and whether that will be a better world remains to be seen.
The problem is that the Zionists are losing the sympathy of other countries, and have a strong opposition with people taking to the streets in their own country, because the government is apartheid, racist, and genocidal. Oppositional newspapers are putting the record straight, that the IDF has been given a free hand, and they are fighting a war against the Palestinians (and anyone who gets in the way).
It is typical hyperbole that you are putting out, and nobody here has condoned the Hamas attack, but has seen the problem in the prolonged conflict that has caused a whole generation of Palestinians to know nothing but oppression. It is amazing that you can't see that!
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 17th, 2023, 8:05 am
by Pattern-chaser
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 11:34 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 9:20 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2023, 3:51 pm
There's strong feminist support for Palestine too. Where were these feminist protesters while Arab women were being oppressed? Why weren't they marching in the streets about that?
Failure to declare support for worthy-cause-B does not demean, detract from, or diminish, the value of support for worthy-cause-A.
What it shows is they didn't care about the repression of Arab women. If they did they would have been out on the streets. They care about a hospital under siege but not about the use of the hospital as a military base. Do they think that, if attacked, Israel declares war on hospitals? Why is there no criticism by the left of Hamas's war crime of using the ill and vulnerable as human shields as cover? It's this kind of hypocrisy that has driven me from the left.
Accusations like that are not always credible. In a war situation, both sides, and their allies, feel free to indulge in propaganda — lies. Doubt in such circumstances, or at least scepticism, seems to make some sense. It's not hypocrisy if you can't be sure of your data.
A few years ago, a political leader in the UK was smeared by the media and political opponents, accused of anti-Semitism to get rid of him. He was a Socialist, after all! Now, there is evidence to show that this was a concocted smear campaign, and that the accusations were fabrications. There are plenty of counter-examples too. Claims, scams, and lies are common parts of the political process, today. Sadly.
This topic, and the discussion of this matter, is highly emotionally-charged, filled with part-truths and untruths ... with a few facts carefully concealed in the general mayhem. I have rarely seen such passion here in this forum. It is not only the warmongers themselves that are indulging in propaganda here. Hypocrisy is not a trait of the Left, it is a trait of the human. And there's plenty of
that here too.
In time, perhaps a more measured discussion will become possible, as
reliable evidence finally emerges.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 17th, 2023, 10:45 am
by popeye1945
Consul wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 2:23 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑November 16th, 2023, 5:00 am
…The new global movement of the BRICS is an attempt to create a better world, a multipolar world, a more humane world. The bombing of civilians in Gaza, a genocide stark in its barbarity reveals the true nature of the West and the American Empire. Israeli is an American outpost in the oil-rich East and a colonial power the West created.
Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, and all the other militant Islamist organizations or governments (e.g. Iran) will surely help us "to create a better world", "a more humane world".
You seem to love conspiracy theories! Actually, the Israelis have not been committing any genocide, and the targets of their bombings aren't innocent civilians but the personnel and infrastructure of Hamas. Unfortunately, given the urban-warfare situation and Hamas' deeply inhumane human-shield tactics, the IDF cannot avoid civilian casualities, unless it remains passive and reprieves Hamas. However, it has the right not to do so!
Hamas itself neither regrets nor tries to avoid the killing of innocent Palestinians! They are prepared to sacrifice their fellow Palestinians on the altar of the war they began!
You must be getting your news from authorized sources, the purely corporate owned media or direct from Israel, same source.
Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Posted: November 17th, 2023, 12:00 pm
by Lagayascienza
I am so sick of getting the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian dross served on in he media each day. The good thing is that most people I talk to in Australia are awake to the one sidedness. They don't do Faux News but most of the commercial media here are as bad as Faux News. But people here know that the Palestinians. over the last 70 years. have been dispossessed, disenfranchised and marginalised by Israel backed by what has been the US hegemony. The Palestinians have been backed into the ghetto that is Gazza with no hope of a future. The Israelis would do well to remember the Warsaw Ghetto. The jews did whatever they could to survive and if that had entailed taking German hostages, who could have blamed them? Why should we expect the Palestinians to do? Just throw in the towel? When people are backed into a corner they will fight. Israel must either completely exterminate the Palestinians (which it seems they are trying to so) or give them some hope of a Palestinian state. I loath both their damned religions but human beings are not just their religions. People must also have hope in this life. The Palestinians have a right to exist as a free and autonomous people. But Israel shows no sign of giving them any such hope.