Philosophy Discussion Forums

Posted: **November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am**

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2022, 6:21 pm
You clearly have no concept of deep time, just how long a million years is, let alone a billion, and how much can happen in such humongous tracts of time. Do you know how long Homo sapiens has existed?

Small numbers Sy.

We have about thirty trillion cells in our body. Blue whales are about two thousand times heavier, so they will have around sixty; thousand; trillion cells. Blue whales are fully grown around fifteen years, meaning their body mass increases by around four trillion cells per year from birth, or an average of around ten billion cells a day until fully grown.

Every day for fifteen years, the blue whale needs a system which can sort out ten billion cells into skin, bones, organs, muscles, teeth etc. Can you understand the enormity and the speed of this task? This has to be done with a great degree of accuracy, can you imagine the scope for error being passed onto a next generation? This scale of error would not account for the miniscule error needed for hundreds of small incremental steps. Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?

The first life on Earth was single cell, and it seemed content to remain single cell for a billion or two years. There seemed little need or pressure for single cell life to become multi cell.

How did the Sun god speed up this process?

You see, biologists don't study to justify or disprove people's ideas.

The last link you gave me was to disprove intelligent design, it was not helpful explaining eye evolution.

Posted: **November 16th, 2022, 9:49 am**

Count Lucanor wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 12:06 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 15th, 2022, 8:55 am
Count Lucanor wrote: ↑November 14th, 2022, 7:47 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 14th, 2022, 12:28 pm

But that's no different than Multiverse speculation. Otherwise, the Darwin of gaps rears its ugly head there, again! Unless of course, one can hypothesize the first species ex nihilo; reconcile say, the appreciation of both music and scientific theories themselves, along with a whole host of other quality-of-life human phenomena that confers no biological survival advantage!
Multiverse theories can be put right beside other philosophical speculations. They are not accepted scientific theories. Unlike natural evolution of species, which is an accepted fact at the foundation of biological sciences. Nothing makes sense in biology if not under the light of evolution.
Not so fast. In Multiverse, if something exists, everything exists. Otherwise, you bear the burden of explaining where Singularity came from! In other words, if physics had the answer to that, Multiverse would not be logically necessary to posit.
Perhaps you think a multiverse is needed, but from a scientific point of view, it is not. Your analogy between an hypothetical multiverse and the theory of evolution only describes what your belief is, not what actually is.

Please share then what actually "is"?

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 15th, 2022, 8:55 am Similarly, since Darwin only hypothesized from an already existing ensemble of creatures, not the first one ex nihilo, the same problem persists.
Problem? What problem? There's no problem with the huge amount of evidence in favor of evolution by natural selection. Unlike "intelligent design", for which there's no evidence and the argument from ignorance is posited instead.

The problem, just like the BB problem of where the big hunk of dirt came from, is inherent in Darwinism for all sorts of reasons. One, it doesn't explain qualitative properties, nor does it explain the first species ex nihilo...among many other problems. It's kind of like Materialism, a half-theory. Think of it this way, if it was a complete theory, there would be no point in positing God. And actually, the theory is under revision as we speak (just like the BB).

Is that your 'ignorance'?

Posted: **November 16th, 2022, 3:01 pm**

EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2022, 6:21 pm
You clearly have no concept of deep time, just how long a million years is, let alone a billion, and how much can happen in such humongous tracts of time. Do you know how long Homo sapiens has existed?

Small numbers Sy.

We have about thirty trillion cells in our body. Blue whales are about two thousand times heavier, so they will have around sixty; thousand; trillion cells. Blue whales are fully grown around fifteen years, meaning their body mass increases by around four trillion cells per year from birth, or an average of around ten billion cells a day until fully grown.

Every day for fifteen years, the blue whale needs a system which can sort out ten billion cells into skin, bones, organs, muscles, teeth etc. Can you understand the enormity and the speed of this task? This has to be done with a great degree of accuracy, can you imagine the scope for error being passed onto a next generation? This scale of error would not account for the miniscule error needed for hundreds of small incremental steps. Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?

The first life on Earth was single cell, and it seemed content to remain single cell for a billion or two years. There seemed little need or pressure for single cell life to become multi cell.

How did the Sun god speed up this process?

You see, biologists don't study to justify or disprove people's ideas.
The last link you gave me was to disprove intelligent design, it was not helpful explaining eye evolution.

I'm sure you can do your own research on eye evolution. I suggest that you look at the work of evolutionary biologists and not religious apologists. I'm not the one to explain the evolution of the eye or other body parts to you. This is a question for a science forum, not a philosophy forum. We can only provide links that you presumably could find yourself - like this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 140705.htm

Scientists now explain the remarkable ability of marine zooplankton to swim towards light. A new study reveals how simple eyes of only two cells, sense the direction of light and guide movement towards it. The research also provides new insights into what the first eyes in animal evolution might have looked like and what their function was.

Have you noticed how much change has happened in the world in the last century? One century. There are ten thousand centuries in a million years. That's a lot of time in which things can change.

Now multiply that huge tract of time by a thousand and you have a billion years. These numbers are beyond human comprehension, and we are forced to abstractify. Can you conceive of a trillion cells?

Consider the differences:

A million seconds equals a bit over 11½ days.

A billion seconds equals about 31½ years.

A trillion seconds equals about 31,500 years.

Only a few letters differ, but the meanings are vastly different.

Theists find it hard to believe there has been enough time for profound biological changes to happen because they choose not to seriously address deep time. Cosmologist Martin Reece has said that, if humans evolve for another billion years, the resultant life forms would be as different from us as we are from bacteria.

Posted: **November 16th, 2022, 8:13 pm**

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 3:01 pm Have you noticed how much change has happened in the world in the last century?

I have noticed the change intelligent design has made to our world, is that what you are talking about?

Consider the differences:

A million seconds equals a bit over 11½ days.

A billion seconds equals about 31½ years.

A trillion seconds equals about 31,500 years.

Only a few letters differ, but the meanings are vastly different.

Small numbers Sy.

We have about thirty trillion cells in our body. Blue whales are about two thousand times heavier, so they will have around sixty; thousand; trillion cells. Blue whales are fully grown around fifteen years, meaning their body mass increases by around four trillion cells per year from birth, or an average of around ten billion cells a day until fully grown.

Every day for fifteen years, the blue whale needs a system which can sort out ten billion cells into skin, bones, organs, muscles, teeth etc. Can you understand the enormity and the speed of this task? This has to be done with a great degree of accuracy, can you imagine the scope for error being passed onto a next generation? This scale of error would not account for the miniscule error needed for hundreds of small incremental steps. Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day let alone ten billion cells every day for fifteen years?

You say that A billion seconds equals about 31½ years. But the blue whale grows at around ten billion cells a day can you even begin to imagine the enormity of such numbers and speed.

The first life on Earth was single cell, and it seemed content to remain single for a billion or two years. There seemed little need or pressure for single cell life to become multi cell. What came first, the zygote or the whale?

Theists find it hard to believe there has been enough time for profound biological changes to happen because they choose not to seriously address deep time.

The blue whale has around sixty, thousand, trillion cells, Atheists tend to overlook the sheer volume, the speed and the complexity blind evolution needs to overcome. It needs an intelligent designer, not the Sun god. We know the sun god was created by...........

Posted: **November 16th, 2022, 9:53 pm**

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 9:49 am
The problem, just like the BB problem of where the big hunk of dirt came from, is inherent in Darwinism for all sorts of reasons. One, it doesn't explain qualitative properties, nor does it explain the first species ex nihilo...among many other problems. It's kind of like Materialism, a half-theory. Think of it this way, if it was a complete theory, there would be no point in positing God. And actually, the theory is under revision as we speak (just like the BB).

A whole bunch of false statements in such a short paragraph. No, Darwinisn has no problem explaining qualitative properties. Darwinism doesn't have to explain abiogenesis: although ultimately related, it's a different problem. Materialism does not need immaterial spirits wandering in the heavens and sendind their magic rays to control things on Earth. Evolution is not under revision any more than every scientific theory is always under revision. And materialism is doing spectacularly great so far!!

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 1:05 am**

EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:13 pmThe first life on Earth was single cell, and it seemed content to remain single for a billion or two years. There seemed little need or pressure for single cell life to become multi cell. What came first, the zygote or the whale?

Actually there were multiple pressures driving the emergence of multicellular organisms. In fact, one pressure was famously* amongst the most extreme in Earth's history. Do you know what it was?

* To those with any interest in planetary history and evolutionary biology.

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 5:07 am**

EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am
Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 15th, 2022, 6:21 pm
You clearly have no concept of deep time, just how long a million years is, let alone a billion, and how much can happen in such humongous tracts of time. Do you know how long Homo sapiens has existed?

Small numbers Sy.

We have about thirty trillion cells in our body. Blue whales are about two thousand times heavier, so they will have around sixty; thousand; trillion cells. Blue whales are fully grown around fifteen years, meaning their body mass increases by around four trillion cells per year from birth, or an average of around ten billion cells a day until fully grown.

Every day for fifteen years, the blue whale needs a system which can sort out ten billion cells into skin, bones, organs, muscles, teeth etc. Can you understand the enormity and the speed of this task? This has to be done with a great degree of accuracy, can you imagine the scope for error being passed onto a next generation? This scale of error would not account for the miniscule error needed for hundreds of small incremental steps. Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?

The first life on Earth was single cell, and it seemed content to remain single cell for a billion or two years. There seemed little need or pressure for single cell life to become multi cell.

How did the Sun god speed up this process?

You see, biologists don't study to justify or disprove people's ideas.
The last link you gave me was to disprove intelligent design, it was not helpful explaining eye evolution.

Indeed Eric, there is a Sustainer that holds this amazing order in place. The sustainer is Nature.

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 9:25 am**

MrCat22 wrote: ↑April 12th, 2022, 12:57 pm The purpose of this thread it to bring forward all the arguments and evidence that we humans and the world around us is designed/created rather than the result of a process.

I think it's interesting that Thomas Nagel, who admits he is not interested in religion at all, suggests that the Intelligent Design community was treated unfairly - he agrees with them that it seems unlikely that what exists is purely a matter of chance. Again though, he has no interest in religion - he hasn't officially come out and said as much, but it seems he is leaning toward the idea of a conscious universe. If it is the case that the universe is conscious, and that the universe consciously designed life, based on the evidence we have at our disposal, I'm not sure one could characterize this possible conscious universe as "intelligent" or as being a "good designer".

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 11:09 am**

Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 5:07 am
EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?
Indeed Eric, there is a Sustainer that holds this amazing order in place. The sustainer is Nature.

I can't imagine how the scale of the task could be accomplished without intelligent design and purpose. The closest analogy I can think of is a postal sorting office. Letters with an address are sorted into countries, states, towns, roads and a number. Most letters end up at the correct address in the world, only because of an intelligently designed system.

The DNA in all our cells put together would be about twice the diameter of the Solar System. Devise a system that would post sixty, thousand, trillion cells in fifteen years to their correct destination without any form of intelligent design and purpose. The address book covers more than twice the diameter of our solar system.

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 11:22 am**

Count Lucanor wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 9:53 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 9:49 am
The problem, just like the BB problem of where the big hunk of dirt came from, is inherent in Darwinism for all sorts of reasons. One, it doesn't explain qualitative properties, nor does it explain the first species ex nihilo...among many other problems. It's kind of like Materialism, a half-theory. Think of it this way, if it was a complete theory, there would be no point in positing God. And actually, the theory is under revision as we speak (just like the BB).
A whole bunch of false statements in such a short paragraph. No, Darwinisn has no problem explaining qualitative properties. Darwinism doesn't have to explain abiogenesis: although ultimately related, it's a different problem. Materialism does not need immaterial spirits wandering in the heavens and sendind their magic rays to control things on Earth. Evolution is not under revision any more than every scientific theory is always under revision. And materialism is doing spectacularly great so far!!

I thought the exclusivity of materialism was just as nonsensical as your reply?

Keep trying Count!

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 11:28 am**

EricPH wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 11:09 am
Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 5:07 am
EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?
Indeed Eric, there is a Sustainer that holds this amazing order in place. The sustainer is Nature.
I can't imagine how the scale of the task could be accomplished without intelligent design and purpose. The closest analogy I can think of is a postal sorting office. Letters with an address are sorted into countries, states, towns, roads and a number. Most letters end up at the correct address in the world, only because of an intelligently designed system.

The DNA in all our cells put together would be about twice the diameter of the Solar System. Devise a system that would post sixty, thousand, trillion cells in fifteen years to their correct destination without any form of intelligent design and purpose. The address book covers more than twice the diameter of our solar system.

Intelligence is what makes some animals and people able to learn. It's terribly conceited of anyone to believe Nature or God is like animal intelligence.

Posted: **November 17th, 2022, 9:59 pm**

3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 11:22 am
I thought the exclusivity of materialism was just as nonsensical as your reply?

You don't even know what materialism is, so there you go...abusing that privilege that evolution gave you: speech.

Posted: **November 21st, 2022, 5:07 am**

Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 11:28 am
Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 5:07 am
EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?

Indeed Eric, there is a Sustainer that holds this amazing order in place. The sustainer is Nature.

But how can blind nature organize such a rapid rate of growth and diversity? Does nature have an intelligence and a purpose? What tools does nature have to correctly separate sixty, thousand, trillion cells in fifteen years into bones, muscles skin, organs, eyes, etc? That's an average of about four hundred million cells per hour, or an average of around six million cells per minute for fifteen years

I genuinely can't see how such organisation could happen without God directing creation with a purpose in mind.

Posted: **November 21st, 2022, 6:52 am**

EricPH wrote: ↑November 21st, 2022, 5:07 am
Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 11:28 am
Belindi wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 5:07 am
EricPH wrote: ↑November 16th, 2022, 8:34 am Can you imagine sorting out a mere ten thousand items a day for fifteen years?

Indeed Eric, there is a Sustainer that holds this amazing order in place. The sustainer is Nature.

But how can blind nature organize such a rapid rate of growth and diversity? Does nature have an intelligence and a purpose? What tools does nature have to correctly separate sixty, thousand, trillion cells in fifteen years into bones, muscles skin, organs, eyes, etc? That's an average of about four hundred million cells per hour, or an average of around six million cells per minute for fifteen years

I genuinely can't see how such organisation could happen without God directing creation with a purpose in mind.

Maybe if you think of it in the following way: Joe happens to have a few more pressure nerve endings in his fingers than has John . Work is scarce and a lot of people are chasing the few jobs available. The local industry requires men with great manual dexterity. Joe gets the job and earns a living so he can start a family but poor John who has clumsy fingers is unemployable.

Posted: **November 22nd, 2022, 2:56 pm**

Count Lucanor wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 9:59 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 11:22 am
I thought the exclusivity of materialism was just as nonsensical as your reply?

You don't even know what materialism is, so there you go...abusing that privilege that evolution gave you: speech.

Did your material neurons signal that confusion, or did you advise them?

Keep trying Countess!

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