Philosophy Discussion Forums

Fooloso4 wrote:

The teaching attributed to and about Christ cannot be separated from the figure of Jesus, whether that figure was historical or mythical. Central to that teaching is the notion of the messiah.

Yes, any and all cultural artifacts are based upon concrete entities and events.What is central about Christianity as compared with other religions is that Christianity's central figure is a flesh and blood person not a holy book.True,Jesus of Nazareth is not easy to find primary sources for, but his socio-historical background is well attested to by primary sources.

What Jesus's socio-historical background has in common with all socio-historical backgrounds which follow upon and take from Axial Age ethic is the struggle between living a good life and prolonging one's own natural life. That is why Judeo-Christianity is still relevant.

There are other Christlike figures who are better attested to by primary sources and some of them are still alive. For historical reasons The Bible survived as the main written testimony. The main historical reason for the survival of all translations of the Christian Bible was undoubtedly the enduring political power of the RC Church, its antecedents, and its powerful adherents.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:02 am

Greta wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 10:42 pm What we need to appreciate is that the Bible is not actually special, just that it caught on.

You may wish to believe this but I see a much more timely arrival of the Bible in the history of man than mere happenstance would afford.

You may wish to believe this but it'sjust the wheels of progress in history. Did you also notice the timely arrival of Nazism, Stalinism and the Cultural Revolution?

jerlands wrote:

Greta wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 10:42 pmThere was the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, Tao Te Ching, the Vedas, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, Buddhist sutras, Shinto texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Origin of Species, Relativity: The Special and General Theory - so much guidance provided by brilliant ancestors gifted to future generations. What is the purpose of any of these? Handing knowledge down to descendants so it's not lost, so people don't have to keep on "reinventing the wheel".

It seems a shame to focus on one such as the Bible, especially being such an old book whose contents are used to wrongfully deny the truth of subsequent great works that contradict it.

Yes, let's not try and understand the past 2000 years of Western Civilization and simply call it the way it was.

I will take that attempt to distract from my point as concession of defeat. Thank you.

Obviously the later works were ALL about trying to understand better.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:30 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:02 am
You may wish to believe this but I see a much more timely arrival of the Bible in the history of man than mere happenstance would afford.

You may wish to believe this but it'sjust the wheels of progress in history. Did you also notice the timely arrival of Nazism, Stalinism and the Cultural Revolution?

Yes, there are specific reasons that give rise to the events. As I was saying, the appearance of the Bible arose from a natural evolution, a distinct moment in time which coincided with a progression of events that are clearly indicated. The Bible isn't a willy nilly fable that people liked and adopted.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:30 pm

jerlands wrote: Yes, let's not try and understand the past 2000 years of Western Civilization and simply call it the way it was.

I will take that attempt to distract from my point as concession of defeat. Thank you.

Obviously the later works were ALL about trying to understand better.

I'm lost in translation here so maybe you could make that somewhat clearer for me?

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:56 pm

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:30 pm
You may wish to believe this but it'sjust the wheels of progress in history. Did you also notice the timely arrival of Nazism, Stalinism and the Cultural Revolution?

Yes, there are specific reasons that give rise to the events. As I was saying, the appearance of the Bible arose from a natural evolution, a distinct moment in time which coincided with a progression of events that are clearly indicated. The Bible isn't a willy nilly fable that people liked and adopted.

The appearance of all the the above listed works arose from natural evolution. It's just that you favour that which is familiar. That which you study in most depth will logically appear to be the deepest subject matter.

jerlands wrote:

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:30 pmI will take that attempt to distract from my point as concession of defeat. Thank you.

Obviously the later works were ALL about trying to understand better.

I'm lost in translation here so maybe you could make that somewhat clearer for me?

The Bible is not unique - just one more attempt at a major work from a particular culture at a particular time. There were many such works from various cultures. As it turns out, the groups that adopted the Bible defeated others in battle and became dominant in many parts of the world; and reportedly they were more determined, driven and self-sacrificing than other armies due to the doctrines.

Basically, Christians found this powerful personal hack that allowed them to be dominant in battle and they retained this dominance for millennia. It's only now that the Christian west, like any empire, is losing power, gradually shrinking back to the pack, no longer dominant or divine, just one more group that enjoyed its time in the sun until it was usurped - like the British and the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, Carthaginians ...

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:03 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:56 pm
Yes, there are specific reasons that give rise to the events. As I was saying, the appearance of the Bible arose from a natural evolution, a distinct moment in time which coincided with a progression of events that are clearly indicated. The Bible isn't a willy nilly fable that people liked and adopted.

The appearance of all the the above listed works arose from natural evolution. It's just that you favour that which is familiar. That which you study in most depth will logically appear to be the deepest subject matter.

I thought that's what I implied? Looking into the future obviously has different challenges then looking into the past. I don't know however that man in general has the innate concept of the way things should be.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:03 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 5:56 pm I'm lost in translation here so maybe you could make that somewhat clearer for me?

The Bible is not unique - just one more attempt at a major work from a particular culture at a particular time.

Obviously the Bible is unique. There is no equal to it as there is no equal to the I Ching.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:03 pm

jerlands wrote: I'm lost in translation here so maybe you could make that somewhat clearer for me?

The Bible is not unique - just one more attempt at a major work from a particular culture at a particular time. There were many such works from various cultures. As it turns out, the groups that adopted the Bible defeated others in battle and became dominant in many parts of the world; and reportedly they were more determined, driven and self-sacrificing than other armies due to the doctrines.

Basically, Christians found this powerful personal hack that allowed them to be dominant in battle and they retained this dominance for millennia. It's only now that the Christian west, like any empire, is losing power, gradually shrinking back to the pack, no longer dominant or divine, just one more group that enjoyed its time in the sun until it was usurped - like the British and the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, Carthaginians ...

Undoubtedly there is psychological support found in the Bible and maybe a large part of that is found in faith, however, if you look at history the Jews for the most part are persecuted yet remained loyal to their teaching.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:19 pm

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:03 pm
The appearance of all the the above listed works arose from natural evolution. It's just that you favour that which is familiar. That which you study in most depth will logically appear to be the deepest subject matter.

I thought that's what I implied? Looking into the future obviously has different challenges then looking into the past. I don't know however that man in general has the innate concept of the way things should be.

Ok, a bit of a misunderstanding.

Re: your last sentence there, "what should be" differs, depending on place, time, circumstance and current culture and is thus always changing. The only absolute value that I know of is for members of a group is not to kill or steal from or be highly hurtful to other members (unless necessary).

jerlands wrote:

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:03 pmThe Bible is not unique - just one more attempt at a major work from a particular culture at a particular time.

Obviously the Bible is unique. There is no equal to it as there is no equal to the I Ching.

Just as there is no equal to the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, Buddhist sutras, Shinto texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Origin of Species, Relativity: The Special and General Theory ...

They are essentially different "tools" for different jobs, each being the peak reference in its field.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:04 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 6:19 pm
I thought that's what I implied? Looking into the future obviously has different challenges then looking into the past. I don't know however that man in general has the innate concept of the way things should be.

Ok, a bit of a misunderstanding.

Re: your last sentence there, "what should be" differs, depending on place, time, circumstance and current culture and is thus always changing. The only absolute value that I know of is for members of a group is not to kill or steal from or be highly hurtful to other members (unless necessary).

So what did the Bible actually furnish man on this exodus out of Egypt? More that a statute of law, more than the notion of creation but among numerous other things a connection to the past, from where he came.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:04 pm

jerlands wrote: Obviously the Bible is unique. There is no equal to it as there is no equal to the I Ching.

Just as there is no equal to the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, Buddhist sutras, Shinto texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Origin of Species, Relativity: The Special and General Theory ...

They are essentially different "tools" for different jobs, each being the peak reference in its field.

Granted but it seems the plows for each field are pretty much the same but the crops planted vary widely.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:14 pm

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:04 pmRe: your last sentence there, "what should be" differs, depending on place, time, circumstance and current culture and is thus always changing. The only absolute value that I know of is for members of a group is not to kill or steal from or be highly hurtful to other members (unless necessary).

So what did the Bible actually furnish man on this exodus out of Egypt? More that a statute of law, more than the notion of creation but among numerous other things a connection to the past, from where he came.

And so it jolly well should :) This is what forefathers have to offer the next generations - knowledge of a time and place they knew intimately that played a role in shaping their successors' world. This is the human advantage - cultural transmission, the ability to store and pass on information down the generations.

jerlands wrote:

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:04 pmJust as there is no equal to the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, Buddhist sutras, Shinto texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Origin of Species, Relativity: The Special and General Theory ...

They are essentially different "tools" for different jobs, each being the peak reference in its field.

Granted but it seems the plows for each field are pretty much the same but the crops planted vary widely.

Yes, the very core of religions appear to be very similar once the cultural and literalist poetic edifices are stripped away. The differences between them, often claimed to be profound by some proponents, appear to be largely a matter of different perspectives regarding similar concepts. The similarities are logical enough because we humans share broad existential circumstances, with the rich and poor, good and bad, smart and dull all ultimately destined to become fertiliser.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:00 am

Spectrum wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 10:29 pm Yes, what is critical is the purpose, the Bible was invented to deal with an existential crisis, i.e. an illusion of being saved in heaven which give psychological comfort to theists.

Heaven and Hell. In your mind what is it that might bring about either of these two states?

Pleasure and pain [functions supported by neural circuits] are two fundamental elements essential to ensure survival.
Heaven is a derivative of pleasure and Hell, a derivative of pain.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 9:16 pm
I'm only a threat to your ego/vanity/Pride!
That's fine.
"Things of the spirit are seen as gibberish" - bible
Perhaps the day will come that you are in a better position to understand and assimilate these words. They aren't going away.

Until then, this is nameless, unsubscribing. *__-

Well, since you don't believe in right or wrong maybe you should just man up.

Sonny, is this all you have left in your Prideful quiver? Calling me names?
You are dieseling, just end the discussion. It has been predominately a good conversation, why do you want to sh!t on it now?
Something deep inside niggling? *__-

Now, if you are finished?

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 21st, 2018, 3:02 am

jerlands wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Well, since you don't believe in right or wrong maybe you should just man up.

Sonny, is this all you have left in your Prideful quiver? Calling me names?
You are dieseling, just end the discussion. It has been predominately a good conversation, why do you want to sh!t on it now?
Something deep inside niggling? *__-

Now, if you are finished?

How could you possibly be insulted in your "all is good" world? If harm and good are not differentiable all should be the same to you?

Spectrum wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 10:57 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:00 am
Heaven and Hell. In your mind what is it that might bring about either of these two states?

Pleasure and pain [functions supported by neural circuits] are two fundamental elements essential to ensure survival.
Heaven is a derivative of pleasure and Hell, a derivative of pain.

The notion of Hell probably originates in the Pharaonic Book of the Dead where the deceased's heart is weighed against Ma'at (truth.) In this journey to the Duat (underworld) there are creatures that attack the soul who are only warded off with the correct spell (answer.) Ammit (devourer) was the god (neter) that stood nearby in the weighing of the heart.

Greta wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:34 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:14 pm So what did the Bible actually furnish man on this exodus out of Egypt? More that a statute of law, more than the notion of creation but among numerous other things a connection to the past, from where he came.

And so it jolly well should This is what forefathers have to offer the next generations - knowledge of a time and place they knew intimately that played a role in shaping their successors' world. This is the human advantage - cultural transmission, the ability to store and pass on information down the generations.

If the future of mankind rests in knowledge that then includes our past and for those interested in Biblical history and philosophy in general their roots are found in what we know as Pharaonic thought.

Belindi wrote: ↑March 20th, 2018, 7:47 am

Fooloso4 wrote:

The teaching attributed to and about Christ cannot be separated from the figure of Jesus, whether that figure was historical or mythical. Central to that teaching is the notion of the messiah.

Yes, any and all cultural artifacts are based upon concrete entities and events.What is central about Christianity as compared with other religions is that Christianity's central figure is a flesh and blood person not a holy book.True,Jesus of Nazareth is not easy to find primary sources for, but his socio-historical background is well attested to by primary sources.

What Jesus's socio-historical background has in common with all socio-historical backgrounds which follow upon and take from Axial Age ethic is the struggle between living a good life and prolonging one's own natural life. That is why Judeo-Christianity is still relevant.

There are other Christlike figures who are better attested to by primary sources and some of them are still alive. For historical reasons The Bible survived as the main written testimony. The main historical reason for the survival of all translations of the Christian Bible was undoubtedly the enduring political power of the RC Church, its antecedents, and its powerful adherents.

What I see is man moving through time. The messiah, the anointed messenger for Christianity is the belief in the teaching of Jesus. It's validity I see expressed in the laws it gave in Matthew 22:35-40 and Mark 12:28-34. But these are teaching for Gentiles, Jews had other obligations. Man has been on a journey and I see that the laws expressed in both the OT and NT are what have established our current civilization.