Philosophy Discussion Forums

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2023, 6:03 pm I think the most important decision or at least equally so, is the child’s.

The potential-child has no decision. The potential-child is not (yet) equipped to make decisions. So the parent(s) take their decisions for them. That's what parenthood is about. If you make a potential-child, the responsibility is yours. And abortion is one possible option that some parents will wish to consider. I think they should have that right.

Geez Louise! Teens under eighteen have to rely on an adult parent or guardian for some issues, yet amophos wants a foetus - with less intelligence than a flatworm - to make decisions as to how its mother will live her life.

Perhaps we should allow cockroaches to make decisions about affairs of state while we are at it? Some would say that they couldn't do worse than the current nest of roaches but that greatly underestimates the complexity of governance, just as the difference between a first trimester foetus and a newborn baby is greatly underestimated.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2023, 6:03 pm why is it a matter only for the woman? The man will have to pay for the child just as much as the female...

Er, it's not about paying, it's about care. Not all of life can be understood in terms of dollars.

I don’t think the infant needs the ability to say/state their decision, or think it, in order to have one. A severely disabled adult may not be able to state their decisions or opinions but still have the right to live.

A human foetus may resemble a flatworm [but it isn’t that specifically is it!] or some such thing at the very early stages, but they are a bit more human at a later stage when they can still be aborted, which depends upon the laws of that in your country.


I think that both parents have to pay for the child then it is both of their decisions at least in that respect. Perhaps if the female signed a waver so the male participant doesn’t have to pay, then fine.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 25th, 2023, 8:52 pm I don’t think the infant needs the ability to say/state their decision, or think it, in order to have one.

Perhaps not, but the foetus — not yet an "infant"! — would need the ability to make a "decision", which it does not have. That purely practical observation places the burden fairly on the parents, to make that decision for, and on behalf of, their potential child. And if the pregnancy is a mistake, and the parents do not have the means — not just — to raise the child, then perhaps abortion is an appropriate course for them. It shouldn't be my decision, or yours, but that of the parents, for the responsibility here is theirs, not ours.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 25th, 2023, 8:52 pm I think that both parents have to pay for the child then it is both of their decisions at least in that respect. Perhaps if the female signed a waver so the male participant doesn’t have to pay, then fine.

As I said:

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 25th, 2023, 8:51 am Er, it's not about paying, it's about care. Not all of life can be understood in terms of dollars.

I meant that a decision doesn’t have to be made by someone, it can e.g. be a moral or ethical decision or any given more universal decision. Secondly, when it does grow up, it will probably be glad the decision can be made on your behalf. A new born baby or an infant cannot decide for themselves, so do we kill them for all the same reasons as abortion?

Care may involve paying and the ability to pay.

How good are people at making decisions? My ex had an abortion, then three months later got pregnant again. Women have all those decisions contrasted with hormones whirling around making their minds get mixed up. When I left her [the relationship was a nightmare on both parts [she spilt with me then me her almost weekly]] I got made to feel guilty, when she specifically said she wanted the child for her and I was only the sperm donor.

In short, after reviewing the considerations, I don’t think it should be or is anyone’s decision. Sex makes children, so one should either take precautions or don’t have full sex.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 27th, 2023, 1:50 pm I meant that a decision doesn’t have to be made by someone, it can e.g. be a moral or ethical decision or any given more universal decision. Secondly, when it does grow up, it will probably be glad the decision can be made on your behalf. A new born baby or an infant cannot decide for themselves, so do we kill them for all the same reasons as abortion?

Care may involve paying and the ability to pay.

How good are people at making decisions? My ex had an abortion, then three months later got pregnant again. Women have all those decisions contrasted with hormones whirling around making their minds get mixed up. When I left her [the relationship was a nightmare on both parts [she spilt with me then me her almost weekly]] I got made to feel guilty, when she specifically said she wanted the child for her and I was only the sperm donor.

In short, after reviewing the considerations, I don’t think it should be or is anyone’s decision. Sex makes children, so one should either take precautions or don’t have full sex.

You are aware that every "precaution" method has a failure rate, right?

of course, but they are small percentages and is why i don't see it in black and white.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 27th, 2023, 3:07 pm of course, but they are small percentages and is why i don't see it in black and white.

The ability to see gray on this topic is uncommon, kudos to you.

Having said that, just to be clear, small percentages multiplied by the hundreds of billions of episodes of intercourse annually equals tens of millions of unwanted, unplanned pregnancies while USING birth control. In the US, one in three pregnancies are unintended.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 27th, 2023, 1:50 pm Care may involve paying and the ability to pay.

Yes, but only an American would refer to $$$ so often. You have mentioned it at least 3 times now...

"Care" mostly concerns non-financial issues, IMO, to the extent that a focus on $$$ might even be seen to distort the whole discussion?

Having said that, just to be clear, small percentages multiplied by the hundreds of billions of episodes of intercourse annually equals tens of millions of unwanted, unplanned pregnancies while USING birth control. In the US, one in three pregnancies are unintended.

Silly me I didn’t realise the numbers were so high, on the news etc, they usually give percentages like 3% failure for the pill for example. Are 1 in 3 women forgetting to take the pill perhaps or not taking it correctly, well there seams to be a descrepancy in the numbers anyhow.

"Care" mostly concerns non-financial issues, IMO, to the extent that a focus on $$$ might even be seen to distort the whole discussion?

If I may, I think all facets should be taken into consideration, and care mostly has costs. 3 times in a ton of writing when it is an important aspect – is too much?

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 28th, 2023, 7:09 pm

Having said that, just to be clear, small percentages multiplied by the hundreds of billions of episodes of intercourse annually equals tens of millions of unwanted, unplanned pregnancies while USING birth control. In the US, one in three pregnancies are unintended.

Silly me I didn’t realise the numbers were so high, on the news etc, they usually give percentages like 3% failure for the pill for example. Are 1 in 3 women forgetting to take the pill perhaps or not taking it correctly, well there seams to be a descrepancy in the numbers anyhow.

Uummm... not every woman is using the Pill as birth control. In typical use 8% of Pill users will get pregnant in a year. However other BC methods have failure rates as high as over 20%. The 33% unintended pregnancy rate reflects the fact that the pool of women seeking to avoid pregnancy is much, much larger in any given moment than those seeking pregnancy, thus a small percentage of this large pool ends up about one third the size of the much smaller group seeking pregnancy (right now). BTW 90% of women who don't want to be pregnant use a method of birth control.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑May 28th, 2023, 7:09 pm 3 times in a ton of writing when it is an important aspect – is too much?

Three times during one brief, and minor, exchange seems a little too much?

Early term abortion is great and far more moral than forced births.

Abortion reduces suffering of both mother and child. The embryo is destroyed before it can develop sufficient sentience to suffer. Unwanted children suffer and their chance of ending up in prison for life is many times higher than for wanted children. The US is currently creating a major crime wave for the 2030s and 2040s because this Army of the Unwanted will not lie down quietly - they will find their revenge, and regular people will pay.

Abortion *should* be unnecessary. We should not copulate if we can't support a child, or simply don't want one right now. But that doesn't reflect the empirically-confirmable observation that humans don't or won't act in such a responsible way. And so we have abortion, a practical approach to a real-world problem. In short, it shouldn't be necessary, but it *is* necessary, to avoid consequences that are even less desirable than abortion. Such as unwanted children, or (most likely, and most important?) that the parents are not in a position to support a child (for whatever reason(s)).

Rape, of course, must always be a special case. No woman should ever be *required* to bear her rapist's baby.